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by Kenmoria » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:28 pm
by Zenkarra » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:49 am
Araraukar wrote:OOC: Is toilet paper (and other things that you don't actually eat-consume) a consumable? My toilet has had to consume an awful lot of it this past week. And if yes, couldn't you call basically everything a consumable? This was probably raised before, but I'm not sure it was properly addressed?
Also, I really recommend splitting warranties off onto their own main clause (from 2.a.), because you could basically write an entire resolution on warranties. Bundling them up with this one would likely make all producers of basically anything go "the predicted lifetime is a week, your product's lifetime warranty is therefore a week", while it could last you several decades. Like take computers for example. Most component parts (the "innards") have guarantees of 1-3 years, power source (still an innard) might have more - my newest computer's got a 5 year guarantee (and a recommendation to not touch its settings as, according to the expert, "it could power up a small village, and then burn down your house"), for example - but will usually keep on working for... well, a long time. My oldest still working computer (I swear I'm not a computer hoarder, but some really good games don't work on new computers!) was put together early 2003. Or 2002. Thereabouts anyway. So clearly many (most?) computer parts waaaaay outlive their guaranteed lifespans.
Kenmoria wrote:“Your definition clauses don’t really flow for me. I suggest putting ‘as’ before ‘where’, but it still doesn’t feel right.”
by Imperium Anglorum » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:46 am
by Araraukar » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:46 am
Imperium Anglorum wrote:If Apple told us explicitly that iPhones were not meant to work for more than a year, far fewer people would to themselves justify purchasing them.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by Kenmoria » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:09 am
by Imperium Anglorum » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:06 pm
by Zenkarra » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:05 pm
by Kenmoria » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:32 pm
by Zenkarra » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:30 am
by Petrolheadia » Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:59 am
by Zenkarra » Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:40 am
Petrolheadia wrote:Opposed due to:
"materials of insufficient strength"
What is "insufficient strength"? Virtually all products on the market could be stronger, but aren't due to cost and practicality concerns.
Petrolheadia wrote:"A product which is made unusually difficult or expensive to restore to functionality without the assistance of the company or individuals responsible for the product's design or creation, if it is meant to be possible to repair."
Does this mean that products that are technologically innovative, and therefore irrepairable through known non-OEM methods, would be banned?
Petrolheadia wrote:"All products must have their intended lifespan clearly stated in a way that is made obvious to the purchaser. Warranties must be provided to guarantee that the product lasts for it's entire lifespan as stated to the purchaser, or will be replaced without monetary cost to the purchaser in the event of failure."
There are many products, such as motor vehicles, in which the lifespan will highly vary from example to example, due to the varied nature of uses for those products.
by Maowi » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:11 am
Zenkarra wrote:Regulation of Planned ObsolescenceCategory: Regulation | Area of effect: Consumer Protection
The World Assembly,
Observing that many businesses utilize predatory practices to increase sales through intentional sabotage of their product after sale;
Recognizing that large percentages of consumer populations are unaware of this practice, even after planned sabotage has occurred;
Further recognizing that businesses utilizing these practices will often intentionally make it impossible for the consumer to prevent or solve in ways that do not continue to benefit the business, at the consumer's expense; This sentence is incomplete; it is lacking a direct object. After "prevent or solve" I would recommend adding "the sabotage", or some such phrase
Concerned over the environmental impacts of large amounts of unnecessary consumer waste which does not break down for years, decades, or significantly longer;
Desiring to reduce this intentional sabotage, while informing consumers about its existence;
Hereby:1. Defines “planned obsolescence”, for the purpose of this resolution, as a product that meets the following criteria: This definition is problematic. Defining "planned obsolescence", an abstract noun, as a "product" - very much not an abstract noun - doesn't work. Imagine putting it in a sentence. It's akin to saying "I went to pick up my planned obsolescence the other day" where you mean to say "I went to pick up my product that is designed and created ..." etc. I believe you could fix this by inserting "Defines "a product with planned obsolescence" as" and then continue on as you have it now.
a) A product that is designed and created, with the intent to be traded or sold.
b) A product that is designed to have a limited functioning lifespan, or is designed to degrade in function over time, through mechanical faults, materials of insufficient strength, or self-sabotaging software.
2. Encourages that all World Assembly member nations ban the creation, (remove this comma; it's a comma splice) and import of products with planned obsolescence.
3. Requires that all members of the World Assembly enforce the following solutions on all products that meet the definition of “planned obsolescence” as defined by this resolution: "Enforcing solutions" seems like an odd way of putting it. I would recommend changing that to "Requires that all members of the World Assembly implement the following provisions" - but that's just stylistic. If you take my advice regarding the definition of "planned obsolescence", you should replace "all products that meet the definition of "planned obsolescence" as defined by this resolution" with "all products with planned obsolescence". That would also be a lot tidier.a) All products must have their intended lifespan clearly stated in a way that is made obvious to the purchaser; this must include a warning which states that it is intentionally limited.
b) Warranties must be provided to guarantee that the product lasts for its entire lifespan as stated to the purchaser, or will be replaced without monetary cost to the purchaser in the event of failure.
4. Furthermore requires that all products that meet the definition of “planned obsolescence” as defined by this resolution, must not be made intentionally difficult or expensive to repair by purchasers. Same here. You also have an erroneous comma after "resolution".
5. Exempts:a) Products that are considered as consumable items, as long as the company or individuals responsible for their creation do not intentionally obfuscate their status as a consumable.
b) Products that bio-degrade naturally, and do not break down into toxic substances.
c) Products in which planned obsolescence does not impair the intended function of the product, as it was communicated to the purchaser.
d) Warranty requirements, where a consumer has intentionally attempted to damage, modify, or repair a product, or has used the product outside of its intended purpose, where its purpose is clearly stated to the purchaser.
by Pan-Asiatic States » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:50 pm
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by Zenkarra » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:53 am
Maowi wrote:This sentence is incomplete; it is lacking a direct object. After "prevent or solve" I would recommend adding "the sabotage", or some such phrase
Maowi wrote:This definition is problematic. Defining "planned obsolescence", an abstract noun, as a "product" - very much not an abstract noun - doesn't work. Imagine putting it in a sentence. It's akin to saying "I went to pick up my planned obsolescence the other day" where you mean to say "I went to pick up my product that is designed and created ..." etc. I believe you could fix this by inserting "Defines "a product with planned obsolescence" as" and then continue on as you have it now.
Maowi wrote:(remove this comma; it's a comma splice)
Maowi wrote:"Enforcing solutions" seems like an odd way of putting it. I would recommend changing that to "Requires that all members of the World Assembly implement the following provisions" - but that's just stylistic. If you take my advice regarding the definition of "planned obsolescence", you should replace "all products that meet the definition of "planned obsolescence" as defined by this resolution" with "all products with planned obsolescence". That would also be a lot tidier.
Maowi wrote:Same here. You also have an erroneous comma after "resolution".
by Desmosthenes and Burke » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:40 am
Encourages that all World Assembly member nations ban the creation and importation of products with planned obsolescence.
by Maowi » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:35 am
Desmosthenes and Burke wrote:Zenkarra wrote:The two halves of the sentence do not stand on their own, and the comma precedes a conjunction. It appears grammatically correct to me.
Actually, if we are going to be gramatically, pedantic, it is not a second half of a sentence. It is part of the compound object of the verb "ban" meaning it does not need a comma. It also displays faulty parallelism as "creation" is a noun. If you wanted to be fully correct on prescriptive grammar, I believe the correct formulation would beEncourages that all World Assembly member nations ban the creation and importation of products with planned obsolescence.
by Kenmoria » Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:22 pm
by Zenkarra » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:24 pm
Kenmoria wrote:“In the ‘concerned’ clause, ‘or significantly longer’ sounds strange. I suggest replacing it with ‘or even longer’ instead.”
by Zenkarra » Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:30 pm
by Zenkarra » Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:01 pm
by Kenmoria » Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:50 am
Zenkarra wrote:Now that a bit of time has passed, I'm going to give this bill another attempt to reach the general assembly voting floor.
First however, I'm curious to see if there's any new criticism to be given. I'll be submitting this again after a few days if no major changes need to be made.
(OOC: By the way, Is there a general rule for how long someone should wait before re-submitting a proposal that fails to reach GA voting? I couldn't find one.)
by Evil Dictators Happyland » Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:58 pm
by Araraukar » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:01 pm
Zenkarra wrote:Observing that many businesses utilize predatory practices to increase sales through intentional sabotage of their product after sale;
Recognizing that large percentages of consumer populations are unaware of this practice, even after planned sabotage has occurred;
Further recognizing that businesses utilizing these practices will often intentionally make it impossible for the consumer to prevent or solve in ways that do not continue to benefit the business, at the consumer's expense;
Concerned over the environmental impacts of large amounts of unnecessary consumer waste which does not break down for years, centuries, or longer;
Desiring to reduce this intentional sabotage, while informing consumers about its existence;
a) A product that is designed and created, with the intent to be traded or sold.
b) A product that is designed to have a limited functioning lifespan, or is designed to degrade in function over time, through mechanical faults, materials of insufficient strength, or self-sabotaging software.
2. Encourages all World Assembly member nations to ban the creation and importation of products with planned obsolescence.
3. Requires that all members of the World Assembly enforce the following solutions on all products that meet the definition of “planned obsolescence”:
a) All products must have their intended lifespan clearly stated in a way that is made obvious to the purchaser; this must include a warning which states that it is intentionally limited.
b) Warranties must be provided to guarantee that the product lasts for its entire lifespan as stated to the purchaser, or will be replaced without monetary cost to the purchaser in the event of failure.
4. Furthermore requires that all products that meet the definition of “planned obsolescence” must not be made intentionally difficult or expensive to repair by purchasers.
a) Products that are considered as consumable items, as long as the company or individuals responsible for their creation do not intentionally obfuscate their status as a consumable.
c) Products in which planned obsolescence does not impair the intended function of the product, as it was communicated to the purchaser.
d) Warranty requirements, where a consumer has intentionally attempted to damage, modify, or repair a product, or has used the product outside of its intended purpose, where its purpose is clearly stated to the purchaser.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by Zenkarra » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:09 pm
Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:"I only have minor criticism to offer, and none of it concerns the intent of the bill. If capitalism is going to exist in the world, it might as well be less oppressive to the common worker, and therefore we support this bill's intention.
I suggest rewriting clause 1b to remove the phrase 'materials of insufficient strength', as this would force companies to use the strongest possible materials if they do not want to advertise their products as having intentionally limited lifespan, which isn't exactly economical. Capitalism thrives on cost-cutting, and while I would love to crash these decadent bourgeois economies through legislation, those nations are likely to stop your proposal once they realize what the impacts are going to be. Further, using lower-quality materials isn't usually a symptom of planned obsolescence by itself, and when it does qualify, it could reasonably fall under the umbrella of 'mechanical defects'.
To use a specific example, the lifespan of plastic utensils is mostly limited by their material composition - plastic instead of metal. As written, Clause 1b would unnecessarily restrict such products, and Clause 2 would encourage nations to outright ban them."
A product that is designed to have a limited functioning lifespan, or is designed to degrade in function over time, through...
Araraukar wrote:OOC: Would suggest replacing this with "some" instead - or just reword the whole thing as "a widespread business practice" to bypass the problem - as well as this with something that doesn't make it sound like they went around sabotaging their products after selling them, when you're referring to intentional manufacturing flaws instead.
Fairly sure most people are aware of it but can't do anything about it, other than complain online... in RL at least. So I would instead make it something like "...are unable to avoid buying the products of such businesses, and often lack the legal recourse to do something about it".
If you made my suggested changes, you could drop this entirely. Or at the very least you should merge this with the above two.
Considering that you're literally complaining about stuff that breaks, with the whole proposal, that sounds unintentionally hilarious. It also sounds unnecessary, when your angle is customer protection, not environmental.
You don't actually require a reduction of it, merely informing consumers, so you kinda fail this desire.
Or just "a non-consumable manufactured product intented to be traded or sold to a consumer". The "non-consumable" should be part of the definition, even with the exception below, to underline that you're not talking about toilet paper or foodstuffs. Also, your unnecessary drive to end all clauses and subclauses with a period, instead of making the whole thing read as one long sentence, really bites you here, as it makes these subclauses sound as an "or" list to me at least, rather than an "and" list. (At least any nation wanting to not follow this could read it as an "or" list. Given these are subclauses to the definition, you should probably make them run as a sentence anyway.
Does DRM software count as self-sabotaging software? In any case that would seem to catch every single digital licence you buy for a certain period, like, say, the full versions of many antivirus programs for example.
Requires addition of "within their jurisdiction" at the end.
You could really drop the "solutions" from there, since they aren't actually solutions. Maybe "guidelines" instead.
How small print in how manieth page of the user manual can that be printed in?
The exceptions to the warranty should absolutely come right after this, not at the end of the proposal. Also, accidental damage that's not the manufacturer's fault (like, say, a flood damaging home electronics) should not be made the manufacturer's fault with this clause. Your exceptions only cover intentional damage. Though mind you, which instance must provide this warranty? Manufacturer? Seller? What if the manufacturer has marked the product's lifespan as 2 years, but the retailer sells it as something lasting 5 years or more simply to get more sales?
Why do you even need this? This continues to be bonkers when you think of some complicated and intricate things like most electronic devices or even mechanical wrist watches. They're difficult to repair because of the expertize needed, and expensive because of expertize and professional tools needed to do so!
So, once more, what prevents manufacturers from marking everything "consumable" and making things worse for the consumer with even shorter device lifespans?
Which was communicated to the purchaser? The planned obsolenscence or the intended function?
Like I said before, this should come right after the warranty clause, and accidents after purchase should not be the seller's or manufacturer's fault. Additionally, normal use items should not require an "Americanism" (sorry, everyone from USA, but that's what the things like "don't dry pets in a microwave oven" in manuas are called...) lecture before purchase. User manuals exist for a reason.
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