[PASSED] Condemn Koem Kab

[Aclion]

Further, the resolution states that the nominated nation is "intentionally avoiding the expenses necessary to expand a nation’s museums". This is verifiable false, as a quick look shows that the nominee's museums hold currently 5,227 pieces of art. This would not have been possible without expanding the museum's capacity, since an original museum would have room for only 25 or 50 pieces of art.

Not how capacity works.

[VW53Aland]

Not how capacity works.

Explain.

[Praeceps]

Not how capacity works.

Explain.

When your capacity is maxed out, you may no longer open card packs nor receive gifts.

You are still able to bid on cards and go over your limit.

[VW53Aland]

Correct, you can bid and buy. However, returning to the reaction before, where you quoted me;
You can only bid and buy until your money runs out. At that moment, you have to sell (or junk) cards in order to make money. I find it highly unlikely that Koem Kab has a capacity of only ...say 100, or even 1000, and yet has managed to buy a total of 5227 cards. If he managed to do just that, he should be commended, not condemned. But as said, I think it is impossible to manage that.

[Refuge Isle]

Correct, you can bid and buy. However, returning to the reaction before, where you quoted me;
You can only bid and buy until your money runs out. At that moment, you have to sell (or junk) cards in order to make money. I find it highly unlikely that Koem Kab has a capacity of only ...say 100, or even 1000, and yet has managed to buy a total of 5227 cards. If he managed to do just that, he should be commended, not condemned. But as said, I think it is impossible to manage that.

Allow me to help.


This information is publicly available at the bottom of the page here: https://www.nationstates.net/page=deck/ ... lue_deck=1

[VW53Aland]

Ah, I could not find that information, as it is always on the top when viewing my own deck.
Thank you very much, Refuge Isle.
A capacity of only 150?! That is astonishing. However, it still are the game creators who made this possible. It wasn't illegal, so I still think we cannot condemn the nominee for using that loophole.

I have a capacity of 200, but about 228 cards. I cannot open new decks and no one is buying the cards I have for sale. So I can never get the money necessary to buy the capacity upgrade to 250 cards for 16.00 bank!
So I am very curious to how Koem Kab did manage to get such a large deck. However, assuming he did it in an illegal way is too far fetched for me.

[Toerana]

Correct, you can bid and buy. However, returning to the reaction before, where you quoted me;
You can only bid and buy until your money runs out. At that moment, you have to sell (or junk) cards in order to make money. I find it highly unlikely that Koem Kab has a capacity of only ...say 100, or even 1000, and yet has managed to buy a total of 5227 cards. If he managed to do just that, he should be commended, not condemned. But as said, I think it is impossible to manage that.

Ah, I could not find that information, as it is always on the top when viewing my own deck.
Thank you very much, Refuge Isle.
A capacity of only 150?! That is astonishing. However, it still are the game creators who made this possible. It wasn't illegal, so I still think we cannot condemn the nominee for using that loophole.

I have a capacity of 200, but about 228 cards. I cannot open new decks and no one is buying the cards I have for sale. So I can never get the money necessary to buy the capacity upgrade to 250 cards for 16.00 bank!
So I am very curious to how Koem Kab did manage to get such a large deck. However, assuming he did it in an illegal way is too far fetched for me.

As partially stated in the Proposal, Koem does collect up money and cards he pulls on his army of puppets and puts them onto one nation, the other nation mentioned in the resolution. He then proceeds to sell a low owner card for a very high price to his primary nation, therefore being able to gain upwards of a 1,000 bank from 1 trade.

[Bormiar]

I see nothing wrong with this, a country should be free to buy and sell anything at the prices they please. It's the people that buy the high priced art that are the root of the problem. If they would be smarter with their money and not buy the overpriced art they wouldn't be adding fuel to the fire. Condemnation of a nation over how they choose to make money over art is ridiculous. I'm an art patron and love art, but a seller has the right to sell at whatever figure they seem fit.

Ok.

As it stands, VW53ALand has voted against. The resolution makes claims and accusations that are not proven or that are even verifiable false.

Verifiably*. Anyways I'll go full OOC with this response. You seemed to jump between OOC and IC, and it makes for a very odd sounding "statement". I don't want to make that mistake.

The nominee is said to be unwilling "to sell art unless the buyer is willing to meet unreasonably high prices". How frustrating this may be, the art market is an open market and everyone is free to ask and bid to their liking. This is a treat of capitalism that is embraced by nations as the nominee's (along with many, many others). One of the negative effects of capitalism though, is that the one with the most assets has a higher chance and more freedom to play, pay and ask as he likes. If one wants to prevent this from happening, one would have to ban capitalism or prohibit the hoarding of art.

The Security Council is entirely incapable of banning capitalism, and the proposal doesn't condemn capitalism. It condemns greed, hoarding, and the consequences of such. Please read the proposal again. Or maybe a third time too, since you didn't really get it the first time.

Even though we are not a fan of capitalism, we also don't want to ban it. Voting for this resolution would in effect be a vote to prohibit capitalism.

SC can't do that.

Further, the resolution states that the nominated nation is "intentionally avoiding the expenses necessary to expand a nation’s museums". This is verifiable false, as a quick look shows that the nominee's museums hold currently 5,227 pieces of art. This would not have been possible without expanding the museum's capacity, since an original museum would have room for only 25 or 50 pieces of art. How the nominee achieved the copious amounts of bank to do all these expansions has not been made known. As art collectors ourselves, we are curious how this was made possible and to what expense. However, the given accusation that the nominated nation did not expand it's museum's capacity is verifiable false.
As a nation that values integrity more than almost anything else, we cannot vote in favour of a resolution based on false accusations.

Clearly, you don't know what you're talking about. Yes, he did pay bank to expand his collection size. He paid 5 bank total, less than the current amount for a cheap legendary. 5 bank is tiny. We know this by looking at the bottom of this page: https://www.nationstates.net/page=deck/ ... lue_deck=1 and that 50 ==> 100 costs 1 bank, and 100 ==> 150 costs 4 bank (Ballotonia, an admin, told me this). So how is this 5227 cards getting here? You can still buy and sell. He transfers his bank in the hundreds from all the colonized nations to buy new cards for cheap (using the covered dropping-prevention method). This is pretty difficult, so don't feel bad if you don't understand it, but how he made the bank and how big his capacity is is very much known. The only false accusation here is the above from you.

Furthermore, it is stated that those allegedly 'avoided expansions' were made by storing artwork in the museums (or "warehouses", as they're now suddenly called) of Greatest Chernobyl, allegedly a colony of the nominee. However, the museums or "warehouses" of Greatest Chernobyl currently only hold 122 pieces of artwork. The actual capacity of their museums is unknown to us, but estimated at 100. In each case, if the capacity of the museums is lower than the amount of art pieces in stock, by the way the art market works, it will be impossible for the nominated nation to store its artwork in Greatest Chernobyl. Returning to the accusation made; In comparison to the pieces held by the nominated nation's museums (and warehouses), the amount of art in Greatest Chernobyl is only very small. The ratio is low enough to make this accusation false.

I had a good laugh at this bit. Greatest Chernobyl is Koem Kab's puppet which can receive gifts, because it has a 250 deck capacity (still very low). Koem Kab farms using its other colonies, gifts the legendaries, then sells them on Greatest Chernobyl. That's why there's not as much in there (still 4300 bank worth). KK does store it's legendaries in there, by the way the art market works. The amount (which is extraordinarily high) in Greatest Chernobyl is completely irrelevant. What is more important is the thousands of bank sold from Greatest Chernobyl, and all the legendaries that have passed through it. Do your research.

Koem Kab’s abuse of its fortune in order to buy cheap art. This can most-likely only be achieved if the nation has a large amount of wealth to prevent dropping. Stopping this “dropping” tactic from occurring prevents the naïve seller from getting a fair amount for the art, and discourages competition, as it often ends the bidding war

This also goes back to my first point against this resolution. What you see here happening is, however unfortunate, normal capitalism at work. From a capitalistic point of view, the nominee is not abusing its fortune, but merely using it. Again, we are not a fan of capitalism, but we don't believe in its prohibition.
We would like to see some more regulation of the market, but that has to be made by the creators of the market, and certainly we cannot condemn one nation for working within the current regulations.

He's using it to satisfy his own greed. Again, SC cannot ban capitalism.

Lastly, the resolution states that the nominee has "stolen transferred bank". Set aside whether the mentioning of "bank" is illegal or not, by the way the market works, it would technically be impossible to 'steal transferred bank'. Even without mentioning specifically transferred bank, an amount in bank would generally be impossible to steal..

That's completely inaccurate. I'm too tired of you to explain what "transferred" means in terms of cards.

Also, we are shocked to find that the authoring nation (up to a certain degree) uses the same methods as used by the nominee. The authoring nation seems to hold hundreds of colonies himself, holding and trading art. The authoring nation could just as well as the nominee be accused of selling art for "unreasonably high prices".

I have a couple hundred farms, give out legendaries to support TRR's outreach, farm without an addiction, and always sell for market value or less. Despite this being irrelevant to the resolution, go ahead and attempt to condemn me for this. Let's see how that goes. Only problem I have with it is that I don't really get the same condemnation vibes from my nation as I do from Koem Kab, you know?

Based on the fact that false accusations are being made, we would like to request everyone to vote against this resolution, in order to maintain integrity and let capitalism (within boundaries) exist.

I doubt anyone cares about your request.

[Refuge Isle]

So I am very curious to how Koem Kab did manage to get such a large deck. However, assuming he did it in an illegal way is too far fetched for me.

Koem sells cards to their puppets at an enormous rate in the middle of the night, as seen here https://www.nationstates.net/page=deck/ ... _history=1
This is what Bormiar's metaphors in the proposal refer to. It is within the rules of the game, just as raiding and defending is within the rules of them game. That they are permitted by the admins does not negate them from being subject to commendations and condemnations when the characters involved sufficiently play the role of the villain or hero of the story.

[Wabberjocky]

Cards? Work it out between yourselves, fellas. This sounds like a personal dispute.

[Bormiar]

Cards? Work it out between yourselves, fellas. This sounds like a personal dispute.

None of us know him.

[Toerana]

Cards? Work it out between yourselves, fellas. This sounds like a personal dispute.

He isn't in the primary card related offsite discord, and if Bormiar was personally annoyed by Koem's actions it liked would have come out differently, stating his grievances against Bormiar and his friends within the Proposal.

[VW53Aland]

This one first, as I'll need more time processing Bormiar's reply.

Koem sells cards to their puppets at an enormous rate in the middle of the night, as seen here https://www.nationstates.net/page=deck/ ... _history=1
This is what Bormiar's metaphors in the proposal refer to. It is within the rules of the game, just as raiding and defending is within the rules of them game. That they are permitted by the admins does not negate them from being subject to commendations and condemnations when the characters involved sufficiently play the role of the villain or hero of the story.

But there is no "middle of the night", as this game is played worldwide. For instance, during my "middle of the night", a lot of americans will be buying and selling too. How I wished there was a time where I was the only one on the internet, so I could sell some of my cards to a puppet without fearing some other nation would snatch them from us.

He isn't in the primary card related offsite discord

Wait, there is a specific card related Discord? Where do you all find these things?!

[Bormiar]

This one first, as I'll need more time processing Bormiar's reply.

Koem sells cards to their puppets at an enormous rate in the middle of the night, as seen here https://www.nationstates.net/page=deck/ ... _history=1
This is what Bormiar's metaphors in the proposal refer to. It is within the rules of the game, just as raiding and defending is within the rules of them game. That they are permitted by the admins does not negate them from being subject to commendations and condemnations when the characters involved sufficiently play the role of the villain or hero of the story.

But there is no "middle of the night", as this game is played worldwide. For instance, during my "middle of the night", a lot of americans will be buying and selling too. How I wished there was a time where I was the only one on the internet, so I could sell some of my cards to a puppet without fearing some other nation would snatch them from us.

He isn't in the primary card related offsite discord

Wait, there is a specific card related Discord? Where do you all find these things?!

Oh by middle of the night Refuge probably meant when less people are on, like 3am EST.

[Refuge Isle]

But there is no "middle of the night", as this game is played worldwide. For instance, during my "middle of the night", a lot of americans will be buying and selling too. How I wished there was a time where I was the only one on the internet, so I could sell some of my cards to a puppet without fearing some other nation would snatch them from us.

That's pedantic, but yes. My "night" line refers to 06:00 GMT - 09:00 GMT when North America has gone to bed and Europe hasn't fully woken up yet. During this time, only 1-3 major players are awake and it's more possible for cards to be traded at the value of half a million commons without interference.

[VW53Aland]

You seemed to jump between OOC and IC

To me, there is almost no difference. I do not assume an IC stance on a matter. My OOC stance is my IC stance. The only difference is the name. If I did not find facts, proof or evidence of something, then I do not play someone who didn't find it, but then I really did not find the facts, the proof or the evidence.
However, I fail to see how that makes it odd. You can react to what I've written, and not to what character you think I would be playing.

To avoid mistakes on your (or other's) account, everyone can regard the rest of this reaction as OOC.

The Security Council is entirely incapable of banning capitalism, and the proposal doesn't condemn capitalism. It condemns greed, hoarding, and the consequences of such.

I agree the SC cannot prohibit capitalism. Therefore, I think this proposal should not be directed at the SC, but at the game creators, so they can change the game mechanics so that you can no longer buy cards when you're over the capacity limit. They can do that.

Okay, meanwhile it became clear that Koem Kab's capacity is only 150 cards. I had not found the capacity of other players before. One learns new things every day. So, where I thought this much excess was nearly impossible, I stand corrected.

So how is this 5227 cards getting here? You can still buy and sell. He transfers his bank in the hundreds from all the colonized nations to buy new cards for cheap (using the covered dropping-prevention method). This is pretty difficult, so don't feel bad if you don't understand it, but how he made the bank and how big his capacity is is very much known.

Well, it isn't known to me, and people make it their job not to tell me where to find that info. Also, I don't know what "the covered dropping-prevention method" is. All I know is when my puppet wants to buy my card there is a chance of someone else offering a lower selling price making my puppet lose money to a stranger and still leaving me with an unsold card. Or, when I keep my selling (and puppet's bidding) price to low, the risk that someone else bids a higher price, making me lose the card altogether and having it to buy with my puppet from another seller for a higher price.

Again, SC cannot ban capitalism.

And again, by placing a capitalist game inside NS, the game creators allowed for this to happen. However, I do now see that it is rather equal to how they allowed raiding and defending to happen, and we're commending or condemning that as well. So I'll grant you that this is indeed an SC thing.

That's completely inaccurate. I'm too tired of you to explain what "transferred" means in terms of cards.

Oh, that's sad. When I buy a card, I gain the card and my amount of bank is reduced by the auctioned price. My money is transferred to the seller. How someone is capable of stealing that money afterwards is seriously complete unknown to me. But hey, keep people in the dark and certainly don't supply facts and figures or examples. That is apparently how large portions of NS and everything involved are meant to be played.

[VW53Aland]

My "night" line refers to 06:00 GMT - 09:00 GMT when North America has gone to bed and Europe hasn't fully woken up yet. During this time, only 1-3 major players are awake and it's more possible for cards to be traded at the value of half a million commons without interference.

Oh? Okay. I thought there would be players all over the world. So (except for weekends maybe) by 06:00 to 09:00 GMT, a lot of East- and Central-Europeans would be awake, as would the Russians and the Asians.

If I had known this, I would have made use of it, as we're 2 hours ahead of GMT, so this "night" would be 08:00 - 11:00 to me.

[Toerana]

My "night" line refers to 06:00 GMT - 09:00 GMT when North America has gone to bed and Europe hasn't fully woken up yet. During this time, only 1-3 major players are awake and it's more possible for cards to be traded at the value of half a million commons without interference.

Oh? Okay. I thought there would be players all over the world. So (except for weekends maybe) by 06:00 to 09:00 GMT, a lot of East- and Central-Europeans would be awake, as would the Russians and the Asians.

If I had known this, I would have made use of it, as we're 2 hours ahead of GMT, so this "night" would be 08:00 - 11:00 to me.

There are players all around the world, but Refuge indicates hotspots of players and when many of them are asleep or otherwise unavailable that'd be considered night. At these times of day, the market is typically quieter as many richer, larger farms and players aren't around,making a transfer less risky as less farmers will be around and less players with your transfer card will be available to snipe the money.

There are players from all over the world playing this game, which is why Refuge did state that there will be some major players around. The Night time statement is an estimate based on the primary demographic of the Cards and NS Community.

[The Pkunk Alliance]

Oh, that's sad. When I buy a card, I gain the card and my amount of bank is reduced by the auctioned price. My money is transferred to the seller. How someone is capable of stealing that money afterwards is seriously complete unknown to me. But hey, keep people in the dark and certainly don't supply facts and figures or examples. That is apparently how large portions of NS and everything involved are meant to be played.

Lastly, the resolution states that the nominee has "stolen transferred bank". Set aside whether the mentioning of "bank" is illegal or not, by the way the market works, it would technically be impossible to 'steal transferred bank'. Even without mentioning specifically transferred bank, an amount in bank would generally be impossible to steal.

Greetings, fellow WA member. For the record, this nation is affiliated with the card collector "The Oblong Collective," and as such I hope I have the experience required to explain the concept.

So I agree that the wording could be edited. It's more like "stolen bank that was in the process of being transferred." In your first quote, from the perspective of the buyer (bidder), you would be correct. You get the card, and your bank is given in order to get that card.

However, what if, technically, you are trying to sell a card to an account owned by you, the all-encompassing warlord who has managed to conquer two (or possibly more) otherwise semi-autonomous provinces?

That the Oblong Collective and other related nations like this one are similarly ruled by a single warlord is a clear attempt at libel, and is irrelevant here.

In such a situation, you would want that bank to end up in the hands of the nation of yours that is asking, no? And here is where the problem lies. Other users, known as "under-askers", post asks (sell offers) that happen to be just under the amount requested by the bidding nation, and thus listed right under your sell offer. As such, when the auction ends, they receive that bank. The bank was, indeed, never 'stolen' after the fact. And if you never post these "transfers" (or both buying nation and selling nation are under your control) in the first place your bank will never get stolen, but there is no other convenient way of transferring the amount of bank between nations that you own.

An example of this is as follows:

I have an account with, say, 5 bank.

I want to give that bank to another of my accounts, and I cannot do so directly.

That account I want to give the bank to has a card.

So I offer to sell that card for 5 bank, and have the account with 5 bank place a bid offer for 5 bank.

Now a new auction is under way.

Before that auction ends, some other user offers to sell the same card for 4.99 bank. Now, that user will receive the 5 bank if the auction goes through.

The auction completes! The card that I was trying to sell to my account with 5 bank is still in my possession, but the 5 bank now belongs to the other player. My account that had 5 bank, is now short 5 bank. It would have been otherwise, of course, but that 5 bank could have gone to the account that I wanted to transfer 5 bank to.

If you cannot understand how this would be frustrating, you must have the patience of a saint.

[Wrapper]

Referencing "bank" as a currency can't be legal, can it?

A direct reference to bank being currency I would rule illegal. This is just vague enough and open to weird IRL interpretation that I was willing to let it slide.

Agreed. One can argue that, in this context, the word "bank" is used to mean "a sum of money, especially as a fund for use in business" (an obsolete but still acceptable definition).

[Chan Island]

Most shockingly of all, he only has 5 paintings from the highly esteemed Chan Island affiliated nations! An unacceptably unconvincing sign of appreciation of the great works of our fair nations. Condemned with extreme prejudice.

[Bormiar]

Most shockingly of all, he only has 5 paintings from the highly esteemed Chan Island affiliated nations! An unacceptably unconvincing sign of appreciation of the great works of our fair nations. Condemned with extreme prejudice.

I too am deeply offended by Koem Kab's disrespect towards Chan Island and its protectorates.

[Bormiar]

You seemed to jump between OOC and IC

To me, there is almost no difference. I do not assume an IC stance on a matter. My OOC stance is my IC stance. The only difference is the name. If I did not find facts, proof or evidence of something, then I do not play someone who didn't find it, but then I really did not find the facts, the proof or the evidence.
However, I fail to see how that makes it odd. You can react to what I've written, and not to what character you think I would be playing.

To avoid mistakes on your (or other's) account, everyone can regard the rest of this reaction as OOC.

That's a lot of crap (sophistry) for an offhand comment at your lack of skill when writing rebuttals.

The Security Council is entirely incapable of banning capitalism, and the proposal doesn't condemn capitalism. It condemns greed, hoarding, and the consequences of such.

I agree the SC cannot prohibit capitalism. Therefore, I think this proposal should not be directed at the SC, but at the game creators, so they can change the game mechanics so that you can no longer buy cards when you're over the capacity limit. They can do that.

Okay, meanwhile it became clear that Koem Kab's capacity is only 150 cards. I had not found the capacity of other players before. One learns new things every day. So, where I thought this much excess was nearly impossible, I stand corrected.

It's in the rules, you can't call for the site to change based on an SC proposal. If you want the site to change, go to technical.

So how is this 5227 cards getting here? You can still buy and sell. He transfers his bank in the hundreds from all the colonized nations to buy new cards for cheap (using the covered dropping-prevention method). This is pretty difficult, so don't feel bad if you don't understand it, but how he made the bank and how big his capacity is is very much known.

Well, it isn't known to me, and people make it their job not to tell me where to find that info. Also, I don't know what "the covered dropping-prevention method" is. All I know is when my puppet wants to buy my card there is a chance of someone else offering a lower selling price making my puppet lose money to a stranger and still leaving me with an unsold card. Or, when I keep my selling (and puppet's bidding) price to low, the risk that someone else bids a higher price, making me lose the card altogether and having it to buy with my puppet from another seller for a higher price.

I'm sorry I didn't bother to telegram you an explanation, with all your power and might. I didn't telegram Fiji, ED, Kuriko, NES, Ransium, Aumeltopia, Saint Mark, Kyorgia, Cormac, or Sanjikurisa a detailed explanation of cards, because they actually do their homework, and they understand it. But I realize now that I can't afford to lose your world-defining endorsement.

Again, SC cannot ban capitalism.

And again, by placing a capitalist game inside NS, the game creators allowed for this to happen. However, I do now see that it is rather equal to how they allowed raiding and defending to happen, and we're commending or condemning that as well. So I'll grant you that this is indeed an SC thing.

Thanks for recognizing that.

That's completely inaccurate. I'm too tired of you to explain what "transferred" means in terms of cards.

Oh, that's sad. When I buy a card, I gain the card and my amount of bank is reduced by the auctioned price. My money is transferred to the seller. How someone is capable of stealing that money afterwards is seriously complete unknown to me. But hey, keep people in the dark and certainly don't supply facts and figures or examples. That is apparently how large portions of NS and everything involved are meant to be played.

That's not what it means, but thanks for acting as though you've also devoted a great sum of time towards helping cards get into the SC, like me and BBD and Eumaeus and Praetor and Ransium and Manson and Refuge and BowShot and Kuriko and the cards server and everyone else that didn't show up late to voice their uneducated opinion.

I don't explain these things, not because I'm elitist, but because I have other things to do with my time, and your "rebuttals" are too arrogant, assumptive, sophistical, and rude for me to want to help you.

Thank you, The Pkunk Alliance, for indulging this person, despite how little he deserves it.

[Mikeswill]

And I thought this was a game

[Bormiar]

And I thought this was a game

Oh yeah I'm being abrasive and harsh but I'm getting a little frustrated (in a way that's not called for in the circumstances) and the alternative is that I ignore him, which I don't like doing to people. Everyone deserves a response.