[Discussion] Should DOS'ing be a permanent punishment?

[United Muscovite Nations]

NationStates has been around now for nearly 20 years, there are certainly people who have been made DOS who are very different people from when they were first DOS from the sight. It seems to me like it should expire after a certain time. There are probably even DOS people among us right now who are contributing constructively to the community.

[Borovan entered the region as he]

/not a mod

There are few cases where mods decide to uplift a dos ban because they might become mature from the years elapsed or differant reason but the cases are very few.

[Ransium]

We do lift DOSes sometime on a case by case bases. Different mods have different feelings about when and if this should be done. Generally, if someone hasn’t been DOSed for something that awful and hasn’t tried to sneak back in or otherwise made an annoyance of themselves and then they file a GHR asking to be let back in, we’ll at least give it due consideration. And if DOSes are with us and have changed their behavior to avoid detention that’s still pretty much a win as far as I’m concerned.

Personally, I wouldn’t be against having the option to enact a DOS for a fixed period of time for some cases where maturity is a clear issue, and there’s been some discussion of it, but I definitely wouldn’t want that to be the only option.

[Frisbeeteria]

The current DOS is not set in stone. There have been successful returns as well as unsuccessful ones (DOS was reinstated after the same behaviors returned). A lot of DOS players spend enormous amounts of time burning their bridges (like the current Banana spammer) and I frankly don't care how much time passes. Someone who is an utter jerk in middle school is likely to still be an utter jerk in college too. They just change how their jerkiness manifests.

I see no advantage to making a policy that DOS expires after 'X' amount of time. "One Size Fits All" rarely fits any given individual particularly well. Every DOS player has their individual quirks, and the Mod team is in the best position to make the relevant evaluations.

Edit: ninja'd

[Scomagia]

We do lift DOSes sometime on a case by case bases. Different mods have different feelings about when and if this should be done. Generally, if someone hasn’t been DOSed for something that awful and hasn’t tried to sneak back in or otherwise made an annoyance of themselves and then they file a GHR asking to be let back in, we’ll at least give it due consideration. And if DOSes are with us and have changed their behavior to avoid detention that’s still pretty much a win as far as I’m concerned.

Personally, I wouldn’t be against having the option to enact a DOS for a fixed period of time for some cases where maturity is a clear issue, and there’s been some discussion of it, but I definitely wouldn’t want that to be the only option.

How does on file a GHR without "sneaking back in"?

[Jebslund]

We do lift DOSes sometime on a case by case bases. Different mods have different feelings about when and if this should be done. Generally, if someone hasn’t been DOSed for something that awful and hasn’t tried to sneak back in or otherwise made an annoyance of themselves and then they file a GHR asking to be let back in, we’ll at least give it due consideration. And if DOSes are with us and have changed their behavior to avoid detention that’s still pretty much a win as far as I’m concerned.

Personally, I wouldn’t be against having the option to enact a DOS for a fixed period of time for some cases where maturity is a clear issue, and there’s been some discussion of it, but I definitely wouldn’t want that to be the only option.

How does on file a GHR without "sneaking back in"?

Same way one files a GHR without posting past ban, I would imagine. GHRs don't count as coming back.

[Big Jim P]

We do lift DOSes sometime on a case by case bases. Different mods have different feelings about when and if this should be done. Generally, if someone hasn’t been DOSed for something that awful and hasn’t tried to sneak back in or otherwise made an annoyance of themselves and then they file a GHR asking to be let back in, we’ll at least give it due consideration. And if DOSes are with us and have changed their behavior to avoid detention that’s still pretty much a win as far as I’m concerned.

Personally, I wouldn’t be against having the option to enact a DOS for a fixed period of time for some cases where maturity is a clear issue, and there’s been some discussion of it, but I definitely wouldn’t want that to be the only option.

How does on file a GHR without "sneaking back in"?

I would think that they make a Nation and file teh GHR before they attract any other attention to themselves.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Totally agree with UMN, but would go further:

I'd totally get rid of the punishment.

[Jebslund]

Totally agree with UMN, but would go further:

I'd totally get rid of the punishment.

I wouldn't. I've been site staff (on other sites, not here) before. There are times when a person has proven that they have absolutely no intention of following the rules and it is affecting other members' enjoyment of the site. For those players, DOS/permabanning is necessary. The fact that *some* players go on to mature enough to return does not mean *all* players do, or even that those who do will do so in a short enough period of time that it wouldn't be unnecessary extra work to go through the steps to punish them. I'm sure you've seen what DOS players do around here. Permabans exist because of players like that who will just keep causing trouble, often for months or years at a time if you let them.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Totally agree with UMN, but would go further:

I'd totally get rid of the punishment.

I wouldn't. I've been site staff (on other sites, not here) before. There are times when a person has proven that they have absolutely no intention of following the rules and it is affecting other members' enjoyment of the site. For those players, DOS/permabanning is necessary. The fact that *some* players go on to mature enough to return does not mean *all* players do, or even that those who do will do so in a short enough period of time that it wouldn't be unnecessary extra work to go through the steps to punish them. I'm sure you've seen what DOS players do around here. Permabans exist because of players like that who will just keep causing trouble, often for months or years at a time if you let them.

I think a year-long ban would suffice

[Jebslund]

I wouldn't. I've been site staff (on other sites, not here) before. There are times when a person has proven that they have absolutely no intention of following the rules and it is affecting other members' enjoyment of the site. For those players, DOS/permabanning is necessary. The fact that *some* players go on to mature enough to return does not mean *all* players do, or even that those who do will do so in a short enough period of time that it wouldn't be unnecessary extra work to go through the steps to punish them. I'm sure you've seen what DOS players do around here. Permabans exist because of players like that who will just keep causing trouble, often for months or years at a time if you let them.

I think a year-long ban would suffice

Clearly you've never run a site before. I can tell you from experience that one year will, in most cases, *not* suffice.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

I think a year-long ban would suffice

Clearly you've never run a site before. I can tell you from experience that one year will, in most cases, *not* suffice.

I have run a site before.

[The Sherpa Empire]

There are people that need to be banned for more than a year.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

There are people that need to be banned for more than a year.

Who?

[Juristonia]

Clearly you've never run a site before. I can tell you from experience that one year will, in most cases, *not* suffice.

I have run a site before.

*Clearly you've never run a successful site before.

You greatly underestimate some people's obsession with trolling a site for years on end.

[Vassenor]

I wouldn't. I've been site staff (on other sites, not here) before. There are times when a person has proven that they have absolutely no intention of following the rules and it is affecting other members' enjoyment of the site. For those players, DOS/permabanning is necessary. The fact that *some* players go on to mature enough to return does not mean *all* players do, or even that those who do will do so in a short enough period of time that it wouldn't be unnecessary extra work to go through the steps to punish them. I'm sure you've seen what DOS players do around here. Permabans exist because of players like that who will just keep causing trouble, often for months or years at a time if you let them.

I think a year-long ban would suffice

I have had site I staff on have to deal with a recurring vandal who has persisted on and off for around seven years now. The idea that a one-year timeout fixes all behaviour problems is laughable.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

I think a year-long ban would suffice

I have had site I staff on have to deal with a recurring vandal who has persisted on and off for around seven years now. The idea that a one-year timeout fixes all behaviour problems is laughable.

What's he like?

[WayNeacTia]

How does on file a GHR without "sneaking back in"?

I would think that they make a Nation and file teh GHR before they attract any other attention to themselves.

You can file a GHR without logging in.

[Big Jim P]

I would think that they make a Nation and file teh GHR before they attract any other attention to themselves.

You can file a GHR without logging in.

I didn't know this.

[Lamoni]

Just for GVH's edification, but the DOS punishment is not going anywhere, and you really cannot be serious about making the harshest punishment be only a year's ban. The vast majority of people who get DOSed do not improve after only one year, and indeed would go on to troll and harass people for years to come, if we let them.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Just for GVH's edification, but the DOS punishment is not going anywhere, and you really cannot be serious about making the harshest punishment be only a year's ban. The vast majority of people who get DOSed do not improve after only one year, and indeed would go on to troll and harass people for years to come, if we let them.

I know it's not going anywhere, things rarely change as a result of a discussion thread.

[Aclion]

How does on file a GHR without "sneaking back in"?

You can file them without being logged in to a nation.

I think a year-long ban would suffice

Clearly you've never run a site before. I can tell you from experience that one year will, in most cases, *not* suffice.

As someone who has run a site I can tell you from experience that if a year long ban won't suffice they'll be evading it within an hour anyway.

[Kaedijork]

NationStates has been around now for nearly 20 years, there are certainly people who have been made DOS who are very different people from when they were first DOS from the sight... There are probably even DOS people among us right now who are contributing constructively to the community.

Closeted DOS victim reveals himself in a roundabout way?

In seriousness, DOS being permanent probably works the best as it is now, however, there should definitely be accessible pathways where the individual can apply after a time period and then have their activity monitored for a certain length of time.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

How does on file a GHR without "sneaking back in"?

You can file them without being logged in to a nation.

I'm sure it would be a good idea to put an email into such a GHR, so the mods can actually respond.

[Lamoni]

You can file them without being logged in to a nation.

I'm sure it would be a good idea to put an email into such a GHR, so the mods can actually respond.

Yes, so very much THIS. If we don't have a nation or e-mail to respond to your GHR, then we cannot actually respond to your GHR.