LWDT 7: The Earth and Heavens Tremble.

[Ostroeuropa]

Depicting mohammed in a mocking fashion is not a call to violence against muslims, nor a call for hatred against them. So it is very different to hate speech laws for it to be curtailed.



Mocking mohammed isn't racism.

That's really beside the point. Mocking someone's race is considered extremely offensive and unacceptable by your culture. It isn't looney for Muslims to feel at least as sensitive about the Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) as their skin. The simple lesson here is, don't go out of your way to mock and offend for the sake of provoking anger and then cry when you get what you wanted.

But mocking someones religious figures isn't, not anymore. Hence you are demanding we change to your preferences rather than you change to ours.

This is also revealing that you're basically victim blaming here.

If you're not able to be offended and mocked, you do not belong in western society. Demanding it change so that doesn't happen to you is demanding we change a lot about ourselves.

[Al Mumtahanah]

That's really beside the point. Mocking someone's race is considered extremely offensive and unacceptable by your culture. It isn't looney for Muslims to feel at least as sensitive about the Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) as their skin. The simple lesson here is, don't go out of your way to mock and offend for the sake of provoking anger and then cry when you get what you wanted.

But mocking someones religious figures isn't, not anymore. Hence you are demanding we change to your preferences rather than you change to ours.

This is also revealing that you're basically victim blaming here.

It isn't by YOU because YOU don't believe in them and do not care how anyone else feels.

[North German Realm]

You know what, no. Al Mumtahanah is absolutely right. Insulting another person's religion is absolutely not OK, and it should in fact be legally prosecutable. Artworks and pieces of literature that insult another religion, or, you know, "every other" religion in general, should absolutely be banned and people who support them be prosecuted and fined for that. He's got a point.

[Al Mumtahanah]

Is freedom to troll minorities really the hill that white, I mean WESTERN civilization wants to die on?

[Ostroeuropa]

But mocking someones religious figures isn't, not anymore. Hence you are demanding we change to your preferences rather than you change to ours.

This is also revealing that you're basically victim blaming here.

It isn't by YOU because YOU don't believe in them and do not care how anyone else feels.

It isn't by our culture in general when you poll them on the matter and hasn't been for quite some time. Why are you so intent on dodging the point that you're demanding we change to suit you?

[Ostroeuropa]

Is freedom to troll minorities really the hill that white, I mean WESTERN civilization wants to die on?

Where have you been the last 10 years?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9RVS8cjNN0

Freedom of speech in terms of criticism of ideas, popular figures, religion, and so on, is the wellspring of all freedoms.

Mockery and comedy are a form of criticism.

[Kubra]

If they want to move in 26 million first gens? Well, I mean, that's an ambitious undertaking, even when France opened the Algerian floodgates they didn't exactly hit very close to that figure.

Immigration of who? Anyone, everyone?

It doesn't need to be a majority before it's worth taking seriously, and it only gets more difficult to prevent the more there are and the more influence they wield. On balance i'd say if you wouldn't be okay living in a country where they are a majority, you shouldn't want to live in a country where they are a minority either, and that applies across the board. You either find their culture acceptable or you don't.

Europeans and african slaves, for the most part.

and what is the particular tipping point? 30%? 40%? 1%?
Oh, the irish are europeans? I mean I suppose geographically, but man the 19th century was not a great time for them in that regard. I mean, a catholic anyone coming off the boat was in for a rough time across the board, but the irish, well, I mean at least a german catholic was seen as a civilised person, albeit more loyal to the pope than president. Didn't see many know-nothings where they settled, but the east coast? The know-nothings swept the place,
How about Canada? Same sort of nation, yeah? If you'd prefer to stick to the US, hows about things on the west coast? Hoo boy, that ones a doozy, especially when you remember how that stuff ended up part of the US.
I mean let's go to your little truism. You, a decent anglo-saxon sort of person, would *you* want to go live among the irish in the 19th century? I mean silly question, you probably like eating, I know I do. So, well, one thing follows from the other...

[Ostroeuropa]

It doesn't need to be a majority before it's worth taking seriously, and it only gets more difficult to prevent the more there are and the more influence they wield. On balance i'd say if you wouldn't be okay living in a country where they are a majority, you shouldn't want to live in a country where they are a minority either, and that applies across the board. You either find their culture acceptable or you don't.

Europeans and african slaves, for the most part.

and what is the particular tipping point? 30%? 40%? 1%?
Oh, the irish are europeans? I mean I suppose geographically, but man the 19th century was not a great time for them in that regard. I mean, a catholic anyone coming off the boat was in for a rough time across the board, but the irish, well, I mean at least a german catholic was seen as a civilised person, albeit more loyal to the pope than president. Didn't see many know-nothings where they settled, but the east coast? The know-nothings swept the place,
How about Canada? Same sort of nation, yeah? If you'd prefer to stick to the US, hows about things on the west coast? Hoo boy, that ones a doozy, especially when you remember how that stuff ended up part of the US.
I mean let's go to your little truism. You, a decent anglo-saxon sort of person, would *you* want to go live among the irish in the 19th century? I mean silly question, you probably like eating, I know I do. So, well, one thing follows from the other...

As I pointed out there's no particular tipping point, merely a gradual escalation in the amount of bullshit you have to tolerate as society gets gradually worse and the problem gets harder and harder to resolve and crack down on.

I'm welsh, not an anglo-saxon. We were basically in the same boat. Yes, they're Europeans.

[Kubra]

and what is the particular tipping point? 30%? 40%? 1%?
Oh, the irish are europeans? I mean I suppose geographically, but man the 19th century was not a great time for them in that regard. I mean, a catholic anyone coming off the boat was in for a rough time across the board, but the irish, well, I mean at least a german catholic was seen as a civilised person, albeit more loyal to the pope than president. Didn't see many know-nothings where they settled, but the east coast? The know-nothings swept the place,
How about Canada? Same sort of nation, yeah? If you'd prefer to stick to the US, hows about things on the west coast? Hoo boy, that ones a doozy, especially when you remember how that stuff ended up part of the US.
I mean let's go to your little truism. You, a decent anglo-saxon sort of person, would *you* want to go live among the irish in the 19th century? I mean silly question, you probably like eating, I know I do. So, well, one thing follows from the other...

As I pointed out there's no particular tipping point, merely a gradual escalation in the amount of bullshit you have to tolerate as society gets gradually worse and the problem gets harder and harder to resolve and crack down on.

I'm welsh, not an anglo-saxon. We were basically in the same boat.

Assuming, of course, we get it all done within the first generation, correct?
Well you lot didn't starve off, did you? The question therefore still stands.
And boy let me tell ya, how ought I feel about welshmen settling around here? I admit to not being very fond of the place, if I'm being honest. I mean, periphery is always paled by her majesties glittering metropole but man Wales.
Now don't get me wrong, the welsh are alright, but Wales could certainly do with some improvement.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Oh no I didn't know Ostro was from Wales and now I'm reading all his posts in Tom Jones' voice.

[Ostroeuropa]

As I pointed out there's no particular tipping point, merely a gradual escalation in the amount of bullshit you have to tolerate as society gets gradually worse and the problem gets harder and harder to resolve and crack down on.

I'm welsh, not an anglo-saxon. We were basically in the same boat.

Assuming, of course, we get it all done within the first generation, correct?
Well you lot didn't starve off, did you? The question therefore still stands.
And boy let me tell ya, how ought I feel about welshmen settling around here? I admit to not being very fond of the place, if I'm being honest. I mean, periphery is always paled by her majesties glittering metropole but man Wales.
Now don't get me wrong, the welsh are alright, but Wales could certainly do with some improvement.

No, because subsequent generations from ghettoized areas are likewise overwhelmingly subscribing to a foreign discourse on society.

Oh no I didn't know Ostro was from Wales and now I'm reading all his posts in Tom Jones' voice.

Unfortunately i've got one of those borderline accentless deep boom voices. Not quite Christopher Lee, but closer to Lee than your average person. I admit it makes it more amusing for me to say feminine things.

[Kubra]

Assuming, of course, we get it all done within the first generation, correct?
Well you lot didn't starve off, did you? The question therefore still stands.
And boy let me tell ya, how ought I feel about welshmen settling around here? I admit to not being very fond of the place, if I'm being honest. I mean, periphery is always paled by her majesties glittering metropole but man Wales.
Now don't get me wrong, the welsh are alright, but Wales could certainly do with some improvement.

No, because subsequent generations from ghettoized areas are likewise overwhelmingly subscribing to a foreign discourse on society.

Oh no I didn't know Ostro was from Wales and now I'm reading all his posts in Tom Jones' voice.

Unfortunately i've got one of those borderline accentless deep boom voices. Not quite Christopher Lee, but closer to Lee than your average person. I admit it makes it more amusing for me to say feminine things.

Oh, so like hells kitchen? Wait, ain't that place bougie now?

[Ostroeuropa]

No, because subsequent generations from ghettoized areas are likewise overwhelmingly subscribing to a foreign discourse on society.



Unfortunately i've got one of those borderline accentless deep boom voices. Not quite Christopher Lee, but closer to Lee than your average person. I admit it makes it more amusing for me to say feminine things.

Oh, so like hells kitchen? Wait, ain't that place bougie now?

I'm sure the residents have simply moved to another ghetto.

[Kubra]

Oh, so like hells kitchen? Wait, ain't that place bougie now?

I'm sure the residents have simply moved to another ghetto.

What, another irish ghetto? Where?

[Ostroeuropa]

I'm sure the residents have simply moved to another ghetto.

What, another irish ghetto? Where?

The Irish were culturally similar to the other european immigrants, the US was also founded as a colonial nation of immigrants. As I said, i'm talking about a European context in European nations.

[Kowani]

For some reason, I keep thinking that the Rushdie fatwa happened a lot later than it actually did.

I meant less in a moral sense and more that Trump seems incapable of creating functional sentences at times.

I meant the same too. You haven't heard some of Khomeini's speeches, and sadly, the tragically comedic effect is lost when you translate them, but suffice it to say that he is almost consistently known among Iranians for not being able to make any form of sentence. Trump can be incoherent once in a while, but even at his worst, you can still get the gist of what he's trying to say.

We had one like that as well. Rajoy. Not all of it works on English, but he flubbed his lines every chance he got.

[Kubra]

What, another irish ghetto? Where?

The Irish were culturally similar to the other european immigrants, the US was also founded as a colonial nation of immigrants. As I said, i'm talking about a European context in European nations.

Bud, if you said the irish were culturally similar back in the day, that's a whuppin'. What sort of life-valuing guy would show up to the annual orange march and say "you know, you lot are pretty similar"?
I referenced the know-nothings earlier, the folks who figured there was a papal conspiracy to take over the United States and that the irish were the advanced guard. As mentioned earlier, they swept the east coast pretty tidely considering their small size. Say "nation of immigrants" all you want, but it doesn't change the fact of what happened to the guys who didn't meet a certain 3 categories. You're therefore going to have to say something more concrete than simply clutching a truism like a talisman against evil.

[Ostroeuropa]

The Irish were culturally similar to the other european immigrants, the US was also founded as a colonial nation of immigrants. As I said, i'm talking about a European context in European nations.

Bud, if you said the irish were culturally similar back in the day, that's a whuppin'. What sort of life-valuing guy would show up to the annual orange march and say "you know, you lot are pretty similar"?
I referenced the know-nothings earlier, the folks who figured there was a papal conspiracy to take over the United States and that the irish were the advanced guard. As mentioned earlier, they swept the east coast pretty tidely considering their small size. Say "nation of immigrants" all you want, but it doesn't change the fact of what happened to the guys who didn't meet a certain 3 categories. You're therefore going to have to say something more concrete than simply clutching a truism like a talisman against evil.

The complaints of the know-nothings were based on spurious paranoia and unfounded claims. Some of the complaints about Muslims are based in peer-reviewed data.

For example you've got the issue of inbreeding.

55% of British Pakistanis are married to their cousins, and this has occurred for multiple generations. As a consequence, British Pakistanis have a lower IQ than other groups (Despite IQ being dodgy, in this case it's a decent shorthand for general lower intelligence), and 1300% more genetic diseases. They account for fully 33% of children with genetic disorders in the united kingdom, despite being less than 2% of the population, and account for a highly disproportionate number of stillbirths. The costs to the NHS, social services, education, crime and policing, welfare and so on, are highly disproportionate for their demographic and may well be more than a society can bare if the number of them increases further.

Rejecting a Pakistani immigrant in favor of someone from elsewhere is a better choice for your country given these facts.

This is just *one* issue with the culture being bad for society.

Now I want you to imagine a ghetto where half of the population are too inbred to be able to be literate to an acceptable standard, and how this would impact the other half in terms of peer-to-peer learning, normalization of certain behaviors, and so on.

Cracking down on these kinds of cultural practices is essential, but it can only happen if we acknowledge their culture needs to be changed.

For Pakistanis for example, it means that accepting another 1 million of them would mean they account for 66% of genetic diseases in the UK, and increase the number of genetic disorders in the country to 133% of its current total, ish.

These are lifelong conditions, so we need to take a timescale in terms of decades to understand it.

If over the next 50 years, Pakistani immigration continues at the rate it has, we will see the number of genetic diseases in the UK increase by an order of magnitude, with the consequential loss in productivity, health, need for welfare, and so on.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Which as result led to the rise of a new far-right movement in Germany and beyond, and likely also contributed to the election of Donald Trump and Brexit.

She could not have anticipated either of those things. In any event, many factors led to those situations, not just the Syrian refugees in Germany.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

That's one of my few problems with her. Welcoming Muslims into your country -in any capacity, in any form- is generally a mistake, and this one is something that she's been forced to bullshit her way through ever since.

Why are you making an Islamophobic comment in response to my statement?

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Having any number of Muslims is inherently harmful for any country in multiple aspects (including its culture, civil rights, and safety). Europe isn't really an exception in that front.

That is definitely incorrect, especially in my own country (the U.S.).

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Israel prepares to demolish 100 Palestinian homes in its continuing battle for white supremacist colonialism

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2019 ... 43910.html

Yes. I despise the behavior of that country, and my parents were both Jewish.

[North German Realm]

That's one of my few problems with her. Welcoming Muslims into your country -in any capacity, in any form- is generally a mistake, and this one is something that she's been forced to bullshit her way through ever since.

Why are you making an Islamophobic comment in response to my statement?

A statement being "yours" doesn't make it closed to response by other individuals posting on a thread.

Having any number of Muslims is inherently harmful for any country in multiple aspects (including its culture, civil rights, and safety). Europe isn't really an exception in that front.

That is definitely incorrect, especially in my own country (the U.S.).

Yeah. Except that along with White Supremacists and Christian Extremists bombing abortion clinics, Muslims are responsible for all terrorist acts in your country. Of course, given you have the much larger and much more relevant problem of white supremacy, the inherent harm Islam causes is inevitably minuscule in comparison.

[Kubra]

Bud, if you said the irish were culturally similar back in the day, that's a whuppin'. What sort of life-valuing guy would show up to the annual orange march and say "you know, you lot are pretty similar"?
I referenced the know-nothings earlier, the folks who figured there was a papal conspiracy to take over the United States and that the irish were the advanced guard. As mentioned earlier, they swept the east coast pretty tidely considering their small size. Say "nation of immigrants" all you want, but it doesn't change the fact of what happened to the guys who didn't meet a certain 3 categories. You're therefore going to have to say something more concrete than simply clutching a truism like a talisman against evil.

The complaints of the know-nothings were based on spurious paranoia and unfounded claims. Some of the complaints about Muslims are based in peer-reviewed data.

For example you've got the issue of inbreeding.

55% of British Pakistanis are married to their cousins, and this has occurred for multiple generations. As a consequence, British Pakistanis have a lower IQ than other groups (Despite IQ being dodgy, in this case it's a decent shorthand for general lower intelligence), and 1300% more genetic diseases. They account for fully 33% of children with genetic disorders in the united kingdom, despite being less than 7% of the population. The costs to the NHS, social services, education, crime and policing, welfare and so on, are highly disproportionate for their demographic and may well be more than a society can bare if the number of them increases further.

Rejecting a Pakistani immigrant in favor of someone from elsewhere is a better choice for your country given these facts.

This is just *one* issue with the culture being bad for society.

Spurious and unfounded claims that carried them through both state and municipal elections despite not really being a party, just a loose collection of cranks.

yeah, pakistani immigrants have a weird inbreeding habit, and it's good to see us getting out of the muslim thing. They're estimated to be around 38-40% consanguineous in 2014, less than the reported rate in pakistan proper (around 60%) and down from a 2005 estimate of 55%.
Now, you see that's a difference of between 6%-17%. This is what I get at when I talk about generation, bruv. Unless you're of the opinion that cousin marriage is a thing they do for very pressing reasons, are you?

[Ostroeuropa]

The complaints of the know-nothings were based on spurious paranoia and unfounded claims. Some of the complaints about Muslims are based in peer-reviewed data.

For example you've got the issue of inbreeding.

55% of British Pakistanis are married to their cousins, and this has occurred for multiple generations. As a consequence, British Pakistanis have a lower IQ than other groups (Despite IQ being dodgy, in this case it's a decent shorthand for general lower intelligence), and 1300% more genetic diseases. They account for fully 33% of children with genetic disorders in the united kingdom, despite being less than 7% of the population. The costs to the NHS, social services, education, crime and policing, welfare and so on, are highly disproportionate for their demographic and may well be more than a society can bare if the number of them increases further.

Rejecting a Pakistani immigrant in favor of someone from elsewhere is a better choice for your country given these facts.

This is just *one* issue with the culture being bad for society.

Spurious and unfounded claims that carried them through both state and municipal elections despite not really being a party, just a loose collection of cranks.

yeah, pakistani immigrants have a weird inbreeding habit, and it's good to see us getting out of the muslim thing. They're estimated to be around 38-40% consanguineous in 2014, less than the reported rate in pakistan proper (around 60%) and down from a 2005 estimate of 55%.
Now, you see that's a difference of between 6%-17%. This is what I get at when I talk about generation, bruv.

I disagree that we're getting away from the "muslim" thing. Religiosity in general is a vehicle for justifying backwards traditions even if they aren't necessarily founded in the religion, as the religion provides the tools and training to just enforce and accept that kind of thing.

The inbreeding issue is one that has improved, but not to a degree i'm comfortable with. I think the practice needs to be banned, along with circumcision and a few other things, but one issue that has gotten worse over generations is the homophobia. UK muslims descended from immigrants are more homophobic than immigrant ones.