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Berkley to cease using gendered language like "manhole"

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Should other cities remove gendered words from their vocabulary too?

Of course. 'Manhole' is an inherently offensive term.
34
14%
No. I like my gendered words the way they are.
80
33%
Quarantine Berkley.
130
53%
 
Total votes : 244

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Cappuccina
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Postby Cappuccina » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:21 am

Vassenor wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:You did.



That's implying that the word is intended to mean that it's an access hole for men to use.


Did you pull something reaching that hard?

Let's not play dumb, we all know what you're getting at here. But you're going to keep using the "I didn't say that" card.
Last edited by Cappuccina on Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Highever
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Postby Highever » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:34 am

Vassenor wrote:
Highever wrote:Oh of course I forgot, you only vaguely imply things or toe the line so that you can always deny that you technically said it. Unless something else was meant by saying Duhon was saying they don't want to accept that it isn't only men who work in sanitation.


Or we're just assuming that this must be the work of those evil feminists trying to erase the mens from history.

Once again, immediately jumping to calling me some sort of misogynist or doomsayer thinking this is an attack on men by women. Instead of, you know, just finding it ludicrous that the word manhole is in someway harmful or exclusionary.

Oh but you didn't say that. Yes yes, I am familiar with this dance.
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Postby Shofercia » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:03 pm

Kowani wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
It's a waste of money to utilize resources to reprint the manual code of those terms, to have staff members change them online, and so on. I understand that dearest Gavin Newsom believes that money magically grows on trees, but that's not really the case.

Yeah, those 600 dollars are really crucial to the continued function of the city.
Also-What does Gavin Newsom have to do with anything? He’s the state governor, not mayor of Berkley.


Generally speaking, wasting money is bad, and I didn't that was a complex concept to grasp. Gavin Newsom's funding government workers pensions at a $4 to $1 ratio, i.e. for every $1 they put in, the taxpayers put in $4. In order to change municipal codes, you need those workers, some of whom already get exorbitant salaries and pensions. I'd rather not have that become a trend. California has quite a few administrative units, so if every administrative unit decided to follow Berkeley's example, we'd be wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars because someone got butthurt over the term "manhole" and to say it quite bluntly - that's moronic.
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:19 pm

Galloism wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:No, it's literally just man and hole put together, because men go through the hole. Any etymology authority will tell you this. I don't know where you are getting this alt-history of the word. I certainly don't see how "access" gets shortened to "hole".

https://www.quora.com/Why-are-manholes-called-manholes

The term manhole comes from the 19th century and originally referred to a small access hole in the top or side of a boiler that was covered with a heavy metal plate bolted in place. These holes were not meant to provide access for a man to pass through, but for an arm and hand to reach the inner parts of the boiler. “Man” in this case refers not to the gender of the worker, but is from the root word that means “hand,” as in the word “manual.” Indeed, some old boiler manuals use the words “manhole” and “handhole” synonymously. Sewer manholes were probably so-called as an extension of the general term that meant “an access hole” and the gender-specific meaning followed naturally, albeit somewhat erroneously.

This is the same error one sees in the claim that terms such as “man the rudder” or “man the post” are gender-specific when in fact they simply refer to the actual holding of something with the hand (like a rudder), or are instances of synecdoche where “man,” meaning “hand,” is used to refer to a (gender-neutral) person (as in “all hands on deck.”)

Manholes, mostly found in the streets of cities, serve as access points to various underground utilities including sewers, electricity, telephone lines, gas lines and storm drains.

The Name
The term "manhole" comes from the simple idea of how the hole was used--by men who entered the hole to locate the tunneled area beneath the ground.

Other Names
A manhole may also be called an access chamber, utility hole, maintenance hole or inspection chamber.

Name Issue
According to The New York Times, leaders in Sacramento, California, decided in 1990 that the word "manhole" was sexist, and the city now refers to manholes as "maintenance holes."

The Covers
Manhole covers are noted for more than their original role as coverings for in-ground holes. Their covers often display complex, detailed patterning considered to be artwork by fans and photographers.

This is an excerpt taken from What’s in a name?—The Controversy Over “Manholes”

The source for this claim is literally a post in the comments section of a blog. Again, no etymological authority supports this claim, most likely because it's a dumb, totally fabricated antifeminist meme.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:26 pm

Wallenburg wrote:

The source for this claim is literally a post in the comments section of a blog. Again, no etymological authority supports this claim, most likely because it's a dumb, totally fabricated antifeminist meme.

Antifeminist?
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:39 pm

Galloism wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:The source for this claim is literally a post in the comments section of a blog. Again, no etymological authority supports this claim, most likely because it's a dumb, totally fabricated antifeminist meme.

Antifeminist?

Yeah, amazing right? Antifeminists like to make shit up to frame feminists as a bunch of easily offended, hyperactive nuts. For instance, making up etymologies to "own the libs with facts and logic".

I'm not saying that this made up manhole thing must be that, but it's a rather likely possibility.
Last edited by Wallenburg on Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:43 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
Galloism wrote:Antifeminist?

Yeah, amazing right? Antifeminists like to make shit up to frame feminists as a bunch of easily offended, hyperactive nuts. For instance, making up etymologies to "own the libs with facts and logic".

I'm not saying that this made up manhole thing must be that, but it's a rather likely possibility.

Seems weird, given "man" comes etymologically from "mann" meaning "person", so even if we take it that it's "man" it still just means "person hole".

Hell, a handhole is even described as a type of manhole.
Last edited by Galloism on Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:44 pm

Galloism wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:Yeah, amazing right? Antifeminists like to make shit up to frame feminists as a bunch of easily offended, hyperactive nuts. For instance, making up etymologies to "own the libs with facts and logic".

I'm not saying that this made up manhole thing must be that, but it's a rather likely possibility.

Seems weird, given "man" comes etymologically from "mann" meaning "person", so even if we take it that it's "man" it still just means "person hole".

Not necessarily. When did the word “manhole” come about?
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:47 pm

Kowani wrote:
Galloism wrote:Seems weird, given "man" comes etymologically from "mann" meaning "person", so even if we take it that it's "man" it still just means "person hole".

Not necessarily. When did the word “manhole” come about?

1769, according to Webster
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:54 pm

Galloism wrote:
Kowani wrote:Not necessarily. When did the word “manhole” come about?

1769, according to Webster

Thanks.
However, according to Wikitionary, it literally is just man and hole slapped together. And, considering the time in which it was made was not entirely enlightened, we can probably assume they weren’t thinking of the Old English roots.
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Turbofolkia wrote:And it’s not like the 1000 different offshoots of Protestantism that you have in America are any better. Even if they’re not abusing children, it’s just megachurches filled with people on mobility strollers donating their life savings to Pastor Hamburglar so that he can buy his sixth McMansion.

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:55 pm

Kowani wrote:

Thanks.
However, according to Wikitionary, it literally is just man and hole slapped together. And, considering the time in which it was made was not entirely enlightened, we can probably assume they weren’t thinking of the Old English roots.

We still use "man" to mean person through this day, and certainly did so during the 1700s as well.

Notably in the Webster definition it sayeth:

Definition of manhole
: a hole through which one may go especially to gain access to an underground or enclosed structure


A gender neutral definition, and then states:

First Known Use of manhole
1769, in the meaning defined above


So it was apparently gender neutral at the time it was crafted.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:56 pm

Galloism wrote:
Kowani wrote:Not necessarily. When did the word “manhole” come about?

1769, according to Webster

I'm afraid I must inform you that Old English wasn't being spoken anymore in the 18th century.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:57 pm

Wallenburg wrote:

I'm afraid I must inform you that Old English wasn't being spoken anymore in the 18th century.

True, but they still used "man" to mean "person" in certain contexts, as we continue to do today.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:57 pm

Galloism wrote:
Kowani wrote:Thanks.
However, according to Wikitionary, it literally is just man and hole slapped together. And, considering the time in which it was made was not entirely enlightened, we can probably assume they weren’t thinking of the Old English roots.

We still use "man" to mean person through this day, and certainly did so during the 1700s as well.

Notably in the Webster definition it sayeth:

Definition of manhole
: a hole through which one may go especially to gain access to an underground or enclosed structure


A gender neutral definition, and then states:

First Known Use of manhole
1769, in the meaning defined above


So it was apparently gender neutral at the time it was crafted.

I was unaware that we call women men on a regular basis.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:02 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
Galloism wrote:We still use "man" to mean person through this day, and certainly did so during the 1700s as well.

Notably in the Webster definition it sayeth:



A gender neutral definition, and then states:



So it was apparently gender neutral at the time it was crafted.

I was unaware that we call women men on a regular basis.

We actually do use man or men in this context, when we're speaking of many such or generically.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal.'


“Every man must decide whether he will walk in the light of creative altruism or in the darkness of destructive selfishness. ”


“Science investigates; religion interprets. Science gives man knowledge, which is power; religion gives man wisdom, which is control. Science deals mainly with facts; religion deals mainly with values. The two are not rivals.”


“The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.”


What sexist pig.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:05 pm

Are we still trying to spin this as evil feminists oppressing men by saying it's bad to say manhole?
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:05 pm

Vassenor wrote:Are we still trying to spin this as evil feminists oppressing men by saying it's bad to say manhole?

No, we're talking about the etymology of manhole and the usage of the word man in common parlance, which is fun.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Mzeusia
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Postby Mzeusia » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:16 pm

How is this on page 44? Where is the discussion here? Changing words like manhole to be more inclusive is silly. Nobody has ever grumbled the lack of womanholes transgenderholes or any other kind of hole.
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Postby Ifreann » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:17 pm

Mzeusia wrote:How is this on page 44? Where is the discussion here? Changing words like manhole to be more inclusive is silly. Nobody has ever grumbled the lack of womanholes transgenderholes or any other kind of hole.

We're on page 44 because people think that changing words is silly and come here to say so.
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:18 pm

Galloism wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:I was unaware that we call women men on a regular basis.

We actually do use man or men in this context, when we're speaking of many such or generically.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal.'


“Every man must decide whether he will walk in the light of creative altruism or in the darkness of destructive selfishness. ”


“Science investigates; religion interprets. Science gives man knowledge, which is power; religion gives man wisdom, which is control. Science deals mainly with facts; religion deals mainly with values. The two are not rivals.”


“The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.”


What sexist pig.

Gallo, when are those from? :eyebrow:
Atheist and still proud of it. Spanish Expat.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist. Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

Turbofolkia wrote:And it’s not like the 1000 different offshoots of Protestantism that you have in America are any better. Even if they’re not abusing children, it’s just megachurches filled with people on mobility strollers donating their life savings to Pastor Hamburglar so that he can buy his sixth McMansion.

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:19 pm

Kowani wrote:
Galloism wrote:We actually do use man or men in this context, when we're speaking of many such or generically.









What sexist pig.

Gallo, when are those from? :eyebrow:

Well, Martin Luther King Jr, which said all of them, died in 1968. So before that.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:20 pm

Mzeusia wrote:How is this on page 44? Where is the discussion here? Changing words like manhole to be more inclusive is silly. Nobody has ever grumbled the lack of womanholes transgenderholes or any other kind of hole.


This sort of virtue signalling is exactly why this is at page 44.
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Mzeusia
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Postby Mzeusia » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:21 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Mzeusia wrote:How is this on page 44? Where is the discussion here? Changing words like manhole to be more inclusive is silly. Nobody has ever grumbled the lack of womanholes transgenderholes or any other kind of hole.


This sort of virtue signalling is exactly why this is at page 44.

Well, I'm always happy to help.
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:21 pm

Galloism wrote:
Kowani wrote:Gallo, when are those from? :eyebrow:

Well, Martin Luther King Jr, which said all of them, died in 1968. So before that.

Okay. It’s relatively safe to assume that the average style of speaking has changed somewhat since then.
Atheist and still proud of it. Spanish Expat.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist. Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

Turbofolkia wrote:And it’s not like the 1000 different offshoots of Protestantism that you have in America are any better. Even if they’re not abusing children, it’s just megachurches filled with people on mobility strollers donating their life savings to Pastor Hamburglar so that he can buy his sixth McMansion.

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:24 pm

Kowani wrote:
Galloism wrote:Well, Martin Luther King Jr, which said all of them, died in 1968. So before that.

Okay. It’s relatively safe to assume that the average style of speaking has changed somewhat since then.

I'm not positive that's true, after all, if one were to consult the dictionary, you'll see the person definition, with examples, as the second definition:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/man

Definition of man (Entry 1 of 4)
1a(1) : an individual human
especially : an adult male human
(2) : a man belonging to a particular category (as by birth, residence, membership, or occupation) —usually used in combination
councilman
(3) : HUSBAND
I now pronounce you man and wife.
(4) : LOVER
He was her man.
b : the human race : HUMANKIND
the history of man
c : a bipedal primate mammal (Homo sapiens) that is anatomically related to the great apes but distinguished especially by notable development of the brain with a resultant capacity for articulate (see ARTICULATE entry 1 sense 1a) speech and abstract reasoning, and is the sole living representative of the hominid family
broadly : any living or extinct hominid
d(1) : one possessing in high degree the qualities considered distinctive of manhood (such as courage, strength, and vigor)
(2) obsolete : the quality or state of being manly : MANLINESS
e : FELLOW, CHAP —used as mode of familiar address
f —used interjectionally to express intensity of feeling
man, what a game
2a : INDIVIDUAL, PERSON
a man could get killed there
b : the individual who can fulfill or who has been chosen to fulfill one's requirements
she's your man
3a : a feudal tenant : VASSAL
b : an adult male servant
c men plural : the working force as distinguished from the employer and usually the management
The men have been on strike for several weeks.
4a : one of the distinctive objects moved by each player in various board games
b : one of the players on a team
nine men on each side
5 : an alumnus of or student at a college or university
a Bowdoin man
6 Christian Science : the compound idea of infinite Spirit : the spiritual image and likeness of God : the full representation of Mind
7 often capitalized : POLICE
when I heard the siren, I knew it was the Man
— Amer. Speech
8 often capitalized : the white establishment : white society
We should control anything that affects black people. Why should The Man control us?
— Jimmy Denham
9 : one extremely fond of or devoted to something specified
strictly a vanilla ice cream man
as one man
: with the agreement and consent of all : UNANIMOUSLY
The council voted as one man.
one's own man
: free from interference or control
He left home and moved to the city to become his own man.
to a man
: without exception
His friends, to a man, supported him.


https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/man

1An adult human male.

‘a small man with mischievous eyes’
‘the men's semi-finals’
More example sentencesSynonyms
1.1A male member of a workforce, team, etc.
‘over 700 men were made redundant’
More example sentencesSynonyms
1.2menOrdinary members of the armed forces as distinct from the officers.
‘he had a platoon of forty men to prepare for battle’
More example sentencesSynonyms
1.3A husband or lover.
‘the two of them lived for a time as man and wife’
More example sentencesSynonyms
1.4with modifier A male person associated with a particular place, activity, or occupation.
‘a Cambridge man’
‘I'm a solid Labour man’
More example sentences
1.5A person with the qualities associated with males, such as bravery, spirit, or toughness.
‘she was more of a man than any of them’
More example sentences
1.6A male pursued or sought by another, especially in connection with a crime.
‘Inspector Bull was sure they would find their man’
More example sentences
1.7dated A manservant or valet.
‘get me a cocktail, my man’
Synonyms
1.8historical A vassal.
‘By taking service in William's army he had become the man of the Duke of the Normans.’
2A human being of either sex; a person.

‘God cares for all men’
More example sentencesSynonyms
2.1in singular Human beings in general; the human race.
‘places untouched by the ravages of man’
More example sentencesSynonyms
2.2in singular An individual; one.
‘a man could buy a lot with eighteen million dotillars’
More example sentences
2.3in singular, with adjective or noun modifier A type of prehistoric human named after the place where the remains were found.
‘Cro-Magnon man’
More example sentences
3the Maninformal A group or person in a position of authority over others, such as a corporate employer or the police.

‘they've mastered their emotive grunge-pop without haggling with the Man’
More example sentences
3.1informal White people collectively regarded as the controlling group in society.
‘he urged that black college athletes boycott the Man's Rose Bowl’
More example sentences
4A figure or token used in playing a board game.

‘Mr Kravchuk, who prides himself on his chess-playing prowess, did not give up his man easily.’


And, even if it were, I'm not sure if you knew this, but 1968 is after 1769, so even if it's not a way of speaking now, it certainly was a way of speaking in the late 1700s, when the term was invented.
Last edited by Galloism on Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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