TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Auzkhia]

You accept that dysphoria can manifest in different ways (for example, it's possible to have chest dysphoria but no genital dysphoria, or vice-versa), so how is it so hard to accept that sometimes one can be trans without manifesting dysphoria at all?

... Peaks head out. I still wonder if someone who is agender like me counts.

Yes, for sure!

I say so, and probably most people anyway. Agender is often under the nonbinary/genderqueer umbrella anyway as it falls outside the binary.

[Farnhamia]

And there we go again with the "But you!"

And you're being a rude asshole over... nothing.

Edit: It is telling that all you have is ragging on about """"but you"""" and trying to claim it's all I have... when anyone who's actually paying attention could tell you otherwise. Have I been lazy? Yes, definitely, but I always put more than one prong in every post.

*** Warned for flaming. ***

[Hediacrana]

And there we go again with the "But you!"

And you're being a rude asshole over... nothing.

Edit: It is telling that all you have is ragging on about """"but you"""" and trying to claim it's all I have... when anyone who's actually paying attention could tell you otherwise. Have I been lazy? Yes, definitely, but I always put more than one prong in every post.

Over the course of this day, you kept pulling the exact same 'but you' stunt over and over and over again, despite it being pointed out to you (not just by me, also by Torra and Gren) that that's not how sound argument works. In a debate, you simply cannot expect that kind of bad discursive behavior to fly; you have to be prepared to be called out for that stuff.

Now, regarding your claim that there was more to your posts than all that stuff mentioned above, it does seem telling that as far as I can see, you never responded when Torra challenged your claim that you had actually said something different than just a version of 'I like my tribe better than yours':

You could try and show why I'm wrong instead of constantly going "bUt fAlLaCy".

For a productive conversation to be remotely possible, you'd first have to figure out how to articulate something other than a version of 'I like my tribe better than your tribe.' I'll wait.

I already did, not my fault you can't read it in any other way than "you tribe bad, me tribe good"... even though that's not close to what I was saying.

We'll have to disagree on whose fault that is. In the meantime, you can't expect the flaws in your posts to not to be called out for what they are.

Literally how can people read this-

As I said in my post where I talked a bit about her, she's no saint, but her counterparts on the other side of the aisle prove that she could be far worse than she is and still be popular.

It's like calling your neighbor's house a dump when you live in a pile of rubble and garbage - sure, theirs might be rough around the edges, but you're not the one who should be making that call.


Stef really shouldn't have tried to defend one certain preteen drag queen. That's just opening yourself up to all kinds of accusations. Though the most accurate accusation would be "probably-unknowing enabler", not "pedophile".

As for Saciu, eh, she's being more respectful than certain regulars. She just has opinions you don't like, is all.

-as anything other than one big "you tribe bad, me tribe good" with an added dash of shameless apologia for people pretty falsely accusing a girl of being a pedophile sprinkled in the middle? I'm curious as to what sort of underlying meaning and 7th-Dimensional Chutes and Ladders-type argument Proct believes he apparently has hidden under there.

[Saciu]

I have severe gender dysphoria. It's quite simple. I've covered this. I strongly believe that gender dysphoria is required to be trans.

And why is that? Why can one not be the gender they identify as yet still love their body? Why is your identity only valid when you hate your body? How much dysphoria do you need to have? Is there a cut off point? I have dysphoria over my facial hair and used to have dysphoria over my chest, but I don't have much desire to ever get bottom surgery and am perfectly happy with and genuinely enjoy having the genitals I possess. Am I trans enough? Is my identity less valid than yours? There was a period where I proudly wore facial hair and still felt feminine. Was I valid then? Or was I just some trender that wanted to be special so bad I tricked myself into being trans?

I don't know your emotions. If you have dysphoria relating to gender, then you have gender dysphoria, then you're trans. Different people have different levels of gender dysphoria. I don't know what your feelings were over your facial hair and chest were. Maybe they're dysphoria. Maybe you're mistaken, and you just don't like having facial hair and like breasts enough to want them on your body. I don't know your emotions.

[Saciu]

I have severe gender dysphoria. It's quite simple. I've covered this. I strongly believe that gender dysphoria is required to be trans.

You accept that dysphoria can manifest in different ways (for example, it's possible to have chest dysphoria but no genital dysphoria, or vice-versa), so how is it so hard to accept that sometimes one can be trans without manifesting dysphoria at all?

There's no reason to transition without dysphoria. Transitioning is a thing because of gender dysphoria. People forget that effeminate men and masculine women are possible. It's ok to be gender non-conforming.

[Saciu]

I've never used 4chan in my life, though. My beliefs are based on two years of trans experience and research.

My beliefs are based on far more time of trans experience and research, though, so I'm obviously more correct than you.

I'm assuming that's sarcasm.

[Saciu]

Tranny isn't a slur for everyone.

X to doubt.

It's the same as queer - in fact, debatably, queer should be more offensive, as the word "queer" originally meant strange.

Whatever.

Just talk to transmeds. Seriously. It'll really change your opinion on them.

I did. That's how I got my current opinion on them in the first place.

They're not all horrible.

When they exclude NB people, among plenty of other acts of dickery, yeah, they are.

Honestly, the only downside I have with them is that sometimes they treat me a bit worse because I doubt NB's existence.

I doubt they treat you worse because of that. If anything, they praise you for it.

Also, I don't know any transmeds that hate tucutes more than TERFs.

I've encountered plenty.

I certainly hate TERFs, while I range from showing apathy to dislike towards tucutes.

Then don't be a transmed.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be able to do what they want with their body. I'd just prefer it if less people suffered needless pain.

Just trust that as long as people are making decisions with informed consent, then they're making the best decisions they can make for themselves.

Just because TERFs say it, it's not necessarily wrong.

It does when they're talking about trans issues.

I'm not saying that you're all trenders. I'm just saying that they do exist.

Mostly as 4chan sockpuppets, and incredibly tiny fringe of gullibles who they've fooled. Not all NB people, as transmeds believe.

I'm not saying that you're not real. You are almost certainly real. You're as real as anyone else on this thread (I won't get into solipsism here). I'm just saying that I don't think Non-Binary is a gender.

Its a class of multiple genders.

I think that there's only male and female, and it's fine if you disagree.

You can think that, but not without running contrary to everything we know about gender identity.

I'm unapologetically trans too. Why wouldn't I be.

I don't know, but you seem to express a fair amount of regret for being trans.

It's not an accomplishment, though, so there's no reason to be proud of it.

That's not what we're being proud for. We're being proud in spite of the bullshit cis society says and does to us.

And no, I don't hate myself.

Sure sounded like it earlier.

I hate the fact that I have a crippling mental condition.

Yes, dysphoria is bad, but again, you can be trans without having dysphoria.

Could you explain how you manage to avoid intense pain caused by gender dysphoria

Drinking, distracting myself, etc. Doesn't work very well, but as I'm currently unable to transition, its the only way of dealing with it that I have.

and the worry of the numerous surgeries you'll have

I don't plan on having any surgery except for one, and even that isn't a sure thing. Fortunately, I don't have bad enough dysphoria about that part of my body to require surgery.

and high amount of discrimination you'll face.

Do my best to change society, and help my fellow trans siblings change it.

There are no transgender bathroom rapists. There are transtrenders.

Again, mostly trolls.

It's not hard to find detransitioners, every single one of whom was once a transtrender

X to doubt.

who then regretted their decision to transition.

Something that can be avoided by truly informed consent.

I did mis-speak about some of the SRS. It's true that dysphoria works differently for different people.

I applaud you for admitting that.

Not. All. Transmeds. Just as I'm aware that none of you believes in shit like autismgender.

I'm not actually sure what you're addressing here.

"Transmedicalism is just Uncle Tom-ism for the trans community." AKA "Everything I don't like is racism"

Not really. Just "these two instances of marginalized people supporting the further marginalization of people like them are pretty damn similar".

Try to be more tolerant. Referring to transmeds as garbage? Not OK. I'm not referring to tucutes as garbage or anything on that level.

The only person I explicitly called garbage was Blaire White. Not transmeds as a whole.

I don't know a huge amount about her, but from what I know, I don't think she has any genuine hate in her heart. She was pretty iffy towards transbians iirc, but she's changed her positions since then. I know she can be bigoted towards NBs, but I don't think it comes from a place of hate. She just needs to learn, not to be called a garbage human.

She also bases the level of respect she has for other trans people on how well they pass, which is enough on its own to justify calling her total garbage.

Judging people's worth based on how pleasant they are to look at is inherently the act of a garbage human being. And, in the case of the trans community, classist and elitist as shit, based on how some of us lost the genetic lottery for passing, and would need hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of surgery to successfully pass. I reserve the right to continue to call her garbage until such time as she either repents for that view, and renounces ever holding it, or until she joins this forum, at which point, I will have to stop calling her that here or face punishment from the mods (though I will continue referring to her as garbage offsite until the first condition is met).

Thank you for once again putting in the time and effort to respond to a load of that stuff - it's very much appreciated.

And I appreciate that my efforts are appreciated.

One of the most disappointing aspects of public life is that such bullshit narratives about othered people are so incredibly resilient.

Honest question - how does one effectively counter those narratives IRL? I'm not inclined to believe debates and facts really help to change minds, because people in general hate to admit their wrong, and because tribalist loyalties tend to immunize people against facts. But what else can be done?

(I'm talking IRL here because politicized conversations in online forum discussions are an entirely different thing)

What seems to be the case is that people soften up on people of various groups they hate after meeting and getting to know at least one member of one of those groups. I think we learned that lesson from the gay marriage issue.

Not that you shouldn't take personal safety and mental well-being into account.

Are you still peddling this fucking bullshit? Alright, let's show you how stupid this argument is with an example:

It's funny that physicists claim to be scientists but then say there aren't a finite number of points on the electromagnetic BINARY. Everybody knows there are two electromagnetic categories a ray can have: gamma or radio. Everything else is just pseudoscientific bullshit, and any light ray that physicists claim to be another wavelength is just a confused gamma ray.

As a physicist, God bless you.

And now you're taking tu quoque to a meta level. Are you intentionally only replying with thinly-veiled versions of "But you!"?

Shit like this is why I blocked him. He's incapable of discussing anything in good faith.

I'm not saying that people who claim to be NB are non-existent. I'm saying that NB is non-existent.

Despite all logic and evidence to the contrary.

Isn't it also impolite to say that autismgender isn't real?

No, because it was made up by disrespectful trolls.

I've never used 4chan in my life, though. My beliefs are based on two years of trans experience and research.

And I've had 8 years of experience, research, and interacting with other members of the trans community.

I like scientific evidence. That's not something that should be judged so negatively.

Sure, but you shouldn't use the (extremely limited) data to police people's identities.

Why should non-binaryism be taken as a fact without evidence?

I mean, there is evidence. The existence and recognition of non-binary genders in multiple cultures around the world, many with no contact with each other, and separated by incredible geographic barriers. This points to non-binary gender being just as inherent to the human condition as binary gender is.

There's also the fact that literally nothing in the universe fits exclusively in a binary classification system (outside, of course, the "everything either is or is not a potato" type stuff). Saying there are only two genders is as fundamentally flawed as saying there are only 2 subatomic particles: protons and electrons.

The biggest issue in this post is that you’re begging for a random person on the internet to value your identity. This is kind of a serious issue, and if you’re comfortable with your identity then you probably shouldn’t be begging for someone, who has little weight in your life, to say whether or not you’re “trans enough”.

Lumi, no, she isn't begging for validation, she's pointing out flaws in transmed reasoning. It shouldn't be that hard for you to understand. I don't even understand how you could think that.

I'd reply to all those, but it's really clear that you don't understand transmedicalism. I bid you good day.

[Saciu]

It's really clear that nothing's going to happen from this thread. Nobody's going to convince anyone of anything. It's all just going to end up with us hating each other. I suggest the topic is changed before more people get in trouble with the mods.

[Cekoviu]

My beliefs are based on far more time of trans experience and research, though, so I'm obviously more correct than you.

I'm assuming that's sarcasm.

Correctly.

[Necroghastia]

I'd reply to all those, but it's really clear that you don't understand transmedicalism. I bid you good day.

It's actually really clear that Gren does understand trans"medical"ism. If you're so certain that people simply don't understand, then try explaining, preferably with sources (that aren't dubious youtube videos).

[Saciu]

I'd reply to all those, but it's really clear that you don't understand transmedicalism. I bid you good day.

It's actually really clear that Gren does understand trans"medical"ism. If you're so certain that people simply don't understand, then try explaining, preferably with sources (that aren't dubious youtube videos).

I've explained what it is before here. Gren just has their own biased view on it. I'm going to say nothing more on this, and I ask that you stop engaging me.

[Grenartia]

You accept that dysphoria can manifest in different ways (for example, it's possible to have chest dysphoria but no genital dysphoria, or vice-versa), so how is it so hard to accept that sometimes one can be trans without manifesting dysphoria at all?

... Peaks head out. I still wonder if someone who is agender like me counts.

I think I speak for the rest of the thread regulars when I say that yes, you do count as trans, even if you don't have dysphoria.

And why is that? Why can one not be the gender they identify as yet still love their body? Why is your identity only valid when you hate your body? How much dysphoria do you need to have? Is there a cut off point? I have dysphoria over my facial hair and used to have dysphoria over my chest, but I don't have much desire to ever get bottom surgery and am perfectly happy with and genuinely enjoy having the genitals I possess. Am I trans enough? Is my identity less valid than yours? There was a period where I proudly wore facial hair and still felt feminine. Was I valid then? Or was I just some trender that wanted to be special so bad I tricked myself into being trans?

I don't know your emotions. If you have dysphoria relating to gender, then you have gender dysphoria, then you're trans. Different people have different levels of gender dysphoria. I don't know what your feelings were over your facial hair and chest were. Maybe they're dysphoria. Maybe you're mistaken, and you just don't like having facial hair and like breasts enough to want them on your body. I don't know your emotions.

That's precisely the point. You. Don't. Know.

You accept that dysphoria can manifest in different ways (for example, it's possible to have chest dysphoria but no genital dysphoria, or vice-versa), so how is it so hard to accept that sometimes one can be trans without manifesting dysphoria at all?

There's no reason to transition without dysphoria. Transitioning is a thing because of gender dysphoria. People forget that effeminate men and masculine women are possible. It's ok to be gender non-conforming.

Gender euphoria is just as valid of a reason to transition as gender dysphoria, and you don't need to have dysphoria to experience euphoria.

I'd reply to all those, but it's really clear that you don't understand transmedicalism. I bid you good day.

On the contrary, I'm all too familiar with it. Just because I don't buy into your attempts to whitewash it, doesn't mean I know nothing about it.

It's actually really clear that Gren does understand trans"medical"ism. If you're so certain that people simply don't understand, then try explaining, preferably with sources (that aren't dubious youtube videos).

I've explained what it is before here.

And got refuted from here to Timbuktu.

Gren just has their own biased view on it.

Am I biased against it? Definitely. Am I incorrect for being biased against it? Not at all. Am I justified in being biased against it? Absolutely.

I'm going to say nothing more on this, and I ask that you stop engaging me.

Fam, that isn't how this works. The only two ways to stop engaging with anyone here on NSG are to either put them on your ignore list, or stop posting in the same threads as them. And only the first option is remotely effective.

[The New California Republic]

The only two ways to stop engaging with anyone here on NSG are to either put them on your ignore list, or stop posting in the same threads as them. And only the first option is remotely effective.

Yup. Unfortunately the foe list is about as much use as a chocolate teapot.

[Nakena]

The only two ways to stop engaging with anyone here on NSG are to either put them on your ignore list, or stop posting in the same threads as them. And only the first option is remotely effective.

Yup. Unfortunately the foe list is about as much use as a chocolate teapot.

Sometimes its useful though to cut the bull.

[Iciaros]

The only two ways to stop engaging with anyone here on NSG are to either put them on your ignore list, or stop posting in the same threads as them. And only the first option is remotely effective.

Yup. Unfortunately the foe list is about as much use as a chocolate teapot.

I mean, if you only drink cold tea, that might not be so bad. Don't know how well chocolate goes with tea, though. (I don't like either >.<)

[Des-Bal]

Oh this again. Has anyone found a single piece of evidence for the existence of non-binary people that couldn't also be found for vampires, psychics, otherkin etc.?

[Cekoviu]

Oh this again. Has anyone found a single piece of evidence for the existence of non-binary people that couldn't also be found for vampires, psychics, otherkin etc.?

The existence of anything cannot be proven with evidence, because we necessarily rely on the presumption that that evidence exists, which cannot be proven or evidenced except with more evidence that may not exist. You (assuming you exist, that is) are asking for something that cannot be provided, although even saying that is based on philosophical assumptions.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Oh this again. Has anyone found a single piece of evidence for the existence of non-binary people that couldn't also be found for vampires, psychics, otherkin etc.?

Apples to oranges. Vampires, psychics and otherkin all have some basis in the physical world, while gender is not measurable.

Do you have a single piece of evidence for the existence of Christians, movie stars and instagram influencers?

[Cekoviu]

Oh this again. Has anyone found a single piece of evidence for the existence of non-binary people that couldn't also be found for vampires, psychics, otherkin etc.?

Apples to oranges. Vampires, psychics and otherkin all have some basis in the physical world, while gender is entirely constructed.

Do you have a single piece of evidence for the existence of Christians, movie stars and instagram influencers?

Gender is not a social construct; that would invalidate transgender people. Please don't come in here and promote a harmful constructionist narrative.

[Torrocca]

Oh this again. Has anyone found a single piece of evidence for the existence of non-binary people that couldn't also be found for vampires, psychics, otherkin etc.?

Oh, I see you're coming in here to state that you're continuing to ignore the plethora of evidence that you were given the last time around that heavily supports the existence of non-binary people.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Apples to oranges. Vampires, psychics and otherkin all have some basis in the physical world, while gender is entirely constructed.

Do you have a single piece of evidence for the existence of Christians, movie stars and instagram influencers?

Gender is not a social construct; that would invalidate transgender people. Please don't come in here and promote a harmful constructionist narrative.

I changed it, I hope it’s more accurate now, and if not, I’d love to hear it.

[Des-Bal]

Oh, I see you're coming in here to state that you're continuing to ignore the plethora of evidence that you were given the last time around that heavily supports the existence of non-binary people.

Could you tell me what that evidence is? Because as I recall without fail every single piece of evidence provided was either totally unrelated (IE shit about animals), contradictory (IE evidence that biological indicators for binary transgendder people exist), or equally true for vampires psychics or otherkin (a group, culture, or organization says they're legit with nothing to actually support that).

The existence of anything cannot be proven with evidence, because we necessarily rely on the presumption that that evidence exists, which cannot be proven or evidenced except with more evidence that may not exist. You (assuming you exist, that is) are asking for something that cannot be provided, although even saying that is based on philosophical assumptions.

Transgender women and transgender men exist. I can support their existence with twin studies, the multiple examinations of the sexually dimorphic nucleus, and estrogen uptake of transgender men. This suggests that transgender men are distinct from cisgender women and transgender women are distinct from cisgender men. No such evidence supports the existence of nonbinary people.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Oh, I see you're coming in here to state that you're continuing to ignore the plethora of evidence that you were given the last time around that heavily supports the existence of non-binary people.

Could you tell me what that evidence is? Because as I recall without fail every single piece of evidence provided was either totally unrelated (IE shit about animals), contradictory (IE evidence that biological indicators for binary transgendder people exist), or equally true for vampires psychics or otherkin (a group, culture, or organization says they're legit with nothing to actually support that).

The existence of anything cannot be proven with evidence, because we necessarily rely on the presumption that that evidence exists, which cannot be proven or evidenced except with more evidence that may not exist. You (assuming you exist, that is) are asking for something that cannot be provided, although even saying that is based on philosophical assumptions.

Transgender women and transgender men exist. I can support their existence with twin studies, the multiple examinations of the sexually dimorphic nucleus, and estrogen uptake of transgender men. This suggests that transgender men are distinct from cisgender women and transgender women are distinct from cisgender men. No such evidence supports the existence of nonbinary people.

Mind, no scientific study exists that proves your existence.

[Des-Bal]

Mind, no scientific study exists that proves your existence.

Ill-placed absurdity I'm not creating an impossible standard or even a very difficult one, I asked for a single piece of evidence. If you wanted to test for my existence you could do all sorts of things, you could see if lasers are interrupted when shined where I'm purported to be or if you don't have a laser handy see if I'm capable of responding tot one of your posts.

[Proctopeo]

Could you tell me what that evidence is? Because as I recall without fail every single piece of evidence provided was either totally unrelated (IE shit about animals), contradictory (IE evidence that biological indicators for binary transgendder people exist), or equally true for vampires psychics or otherkin (a group, culture, or organization says they're legit with nothing to actually support that).



Transgender women and transgender men exist. I can support their existence with twin studies, the multiple examinations of the sexually dimorphic nucleus, and estrogen uptake of transgender men. This suggests that transgender men are distinct from cisgender women and transgender women are distinct from cisgender men. No such evidence supports the existence of nonbinary people.

Mind, no scientific study exists that proves your existence.

Having to retreat to the "everything is a simulation/hologram" hypothesis doesn't really serve you well.