NATION

PASSWORD

America Cuts Turkey From The NATO F-35 Deal

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Lanorth
Diplomat
 
Posts: 851
Founded: Oct 22, 2018
Father Knows Best State

America Cuts Turkey From The NATO F-35 Deal

Postby Lanorth » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:12 pm

Source

The US says it is removing Turkey from its F-35 fighter jets programme, after Ankara received the first parts of a Russian missile defence system.

The US says the "F-35 cannot coexist with a Russian intelligence collection platform that will be used to learn about its advanced capabilities".

Russia began delivering its advanced S-400 system to Turkey last week.

Turkey and the US are key Nato allies - but Ankara has also been establishing closer links with Russia.

In a statement on Wednesday, White House spokeswoman Stephanie Grisham said: "Unfortunately, Turkey's decision to purchase Russian S-400 air defence systems renders its continued involvement with the F-35 impossible.

"The United States has been actively working with Turkey to provide air defence solutions to meet its legitimate air defence needs, and this administration has made multiple offers to move Turkey to the front of the line to receive the US Patriot air defence system.

"Turkey has been a longstanding and trusted partner and Nato ally for over 65 years, but accepting the S-400 undermines the commitments all Nato allies made to each other to move away from Russian systems."

At the same time Ms Grisham stressed that "the United States still greatly values our strategic relationship with Turkey.

"As Nato allies, our relationship is multi-layered, and not solely focused on the F-35," she said.
What are your thoughts on the current situation? In my opinion I thought that Turkey had this coming. Because of their interactions with Russia and the tensions that have been apparent between NATO and Russia, this was bound to happen soon. I doubt anything worse would happen, as Turkey has the second-largest military in NATO, an alliance with twenty-nine member states, so they are rather important.
Last edited by Lanorth on Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.
i give up with this signature smh

User avatar
Tekania
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21671
Founded: May 26, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby Tekania » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:32 pm

IMHO a program that has continuously run over-budget is making a serious blunder in turning away a customer.
Such heroic nonsense!

User avatar
First American Empire
Diplomat
 
Posts: 816
Founded: Mar 12, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby First American Empire » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:44 pm

This is a small step in the right direction. Cut all military aid to Turkey until they stop attacking our Kurdish allies in Syria.
The American Empire is a socially progressive absolute monarchy run by the heirs of Emperor Norton. It started off at MT but has rapidly advanced to PMT through interdimensional travel. All NSstats are used, except for tax rate and population. Factbooks are currently under reconstruction.

User avatar
Risottia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 55261
Founded: Sep 05, 2006
Democratic Socialists

Postby Risottia » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:03 pm

Another YUUUGE success for American diplomacy, which proves America is great and makes the BESTEST planes, that's why Turkey prefers buying Ruski missiles instead of America's planes, planes for whom Turkey is a main provider of components.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockhee ... ghtning_II

I know this because I've been told so by a very stable genius.
Statanist through and through.
Evilutionist Atheist Crusadjihadist. Egli/Lui.
"Darwinu Akhbar! Dawkins vult!"
Founder of the NSG Peace Prize Committee. Should I restart the bugger?
SUMMER, BLOODY SUMMER!

User avatar
Bombadil
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18711
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bombadil » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:15 pm

I guess Saudi Arabia will need to compensate by purchasing more lovely weapons.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

十年

User avatar
Khataiy
Minister
 
Posts: 2947
Founded: Apr 22, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Khataiy » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:27 pm

Objectively speaking, this only hurts the US, the fact Turkey has received Russian produced anti-aircraft systems should actually is a benefit for NATO, the stated concerns over the S-400 system being an "intelligence" project for the Russians are a bit of an outlandish claim, in fact this is a major plus for NATO intelligence on the nature of the S-400 system and its weaknesses and how to use its technology to adapt NATO equipment including future jets and countering it. Turkey really didn't loose much from the F-35s but the S-400s simply are the better option. Bad move by NATO.
Last edited by Khataiy on Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Cappuccina
Minister
 
Posts: 2905
Founded: Jun 05, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Cappuccina » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:16 am

Turkey isn't gonna miss out on much considering the F-35 is moribund. They were probably never even going to get any.
Last edited by Cappuccina on Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Muslim, Female, Trans, Not white..... oppression points x4!!!!
"Latinx" isn't a real word. :^)
Automobile & Music fan!!! ^_^
Also, an everything 1980s fan!!!
Left/Right: -5.25
SocLib/Auth: 2.46

Apparently, I'm an INFP

User avatar
Nakena
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15010
Founded: May 06, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Nakena » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:17 am

It saves Erdogan a massive amount of cash.

User avatar
-Ocelot-
Minister
 
Posts: 2260
Founded: Jun 14, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby -Ocelot- » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:40 am

As a Greek I am happy Turkey is purposely weakening itself. Keep ruining your economy. And destroy your relations with the US, please. Let us have the F-35 while you have jack.

Bombadil wrote:I guess Saudi Arabia will need to compensate by purchasing more lovely weapons.


8 billion to be precise.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... be-stopped

Trump has no problem arming these particular Islamists. Weird.


Tekania wrote:IMHO a program that has continuously run over-budget is making a serious blunder in turning away a customer.


It's alright, we'll buy them.

User avatar
Crockerland
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5456
Founded: Oct 15, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Crockerland » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:45 am

The US should also withdraw all of its nuclear weapons from Turkey, and of course officially recognize the Armenian Genocide at a federal level.
Free Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Tibet.
Gay not Queer / Why Abortion is Genocide / End Gay Erasure
PROUD SUPPORTER OF:
National Liberalism, Nuclear & Geothermal Power, GMOs, Vaccines, Biodiesel, LGBTIA equality, Universal Healthcare, Universal Basic Income, Constitutional Carry, Emotional Support Twinks, Right to Life


User avatar
-Ocelot-
Minister
 
Posts: 2260
Founded: Jun 14, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby -Ocelot- » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:53 am

Crockerland wrote:The US should also withdraw all of its nuclear weapons from Turkey, and of course officially recognize the Armenian Genocide at a federal level.


From Wikipedia's article on Armenia genocide denial

Currently, only the governments of Turkey and Azerbaijan deny that there was an Armenian genocide, while Pakistan does not recognize Armenia's existence as a country. Many other countries, most controversially the United States (pressured by the Turkish lobby, Israel, and, in the past, the Anti-Defamation League),have deliberately avoided officially recognizing it as a genocide to avoid harming relations with Turkey.


Yeah you gotta stop doing them favors

User avatar
An Alan Smithee Nation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7623
Founded: Apr 18, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:56 am

A weak response from the US.
Everything is intertwinkled

User avatar
Cappuccina
Minister
 
Posts: 2905
Founded: Jun 05, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Cappuccina » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:03 am

-Ocelot- wrote:As a Greek I am happy Turkey is purposely weakening itself. Keep ruining your economy. And destroy your relations with the US, please. Let us have the F-35 while you have jack.

Bombadil wrote:I guess Saudi Arabia will need to compensate by purchasing more lovely weapons.


8 billion to be precise.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... be-stopped

Trump has no problem arming these particular Islamists. Weird.


Tekania wrote:IMHO a program that has continuously run over-budget is making a serious blunder in turning away a customer.


It's alright, we'll buy them.

You're acting like getting offered F-35s even means anything, I'd be an empty promise...for a plane that barely functions anyways.
Muslim, Female, Trans, Not white..... oppression points x4!!!!
"Latinx" isn't a real word. :^)
Automobile & Music fan!!! ^_^
Also, an everything 1980s fan!!!
Left/Right: -5.25
SocLib/Auth: 2.46

Apparently, I'm an INFP

User avatar
Nakena
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15010
Founded: May 06, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Nakena » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:04 am

F-35 are overrated and overpriced. Would not buy yet. Rather wait a few years till they have figured them out and have been proved themself in combat.

User avatar
The New California Republic
Post Czar
 
Posts: 35483
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:19 am

Good. Having the S-400 and the F-35 in the same place isn't a good idea. But then again it's likely that the Russians have already got data on the radar reflection characteristics of the F-35 from repeatedly illuminating them with their radars around Syria anyway...
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

User avatar
Novus America
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38385
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Novus America » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:21 am

Cappuccina wrote:Turkey isn't gonna miss out on much considering the F-35 is moribund. They were probably never even going to get any.


This is not true at all. The F-35 was certainly over ambitious.
And it showed in the development.
But most flaws have been corrected, and they have been dominating recent exercises.

Plus they are selling like crazy.
Admittedly it is questionable if our manufacturing capability is near enough to meet demand.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

User avatar
Novus America
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38385
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Novus America » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:22 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:A weak response from the US.


But probably the best one. We are in a tough situation here.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

User avatar
-Ocelot-
Minister
 
Posts: 2260
Founded: Jun 14, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby -Ocelot- » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:28 am

Nakena wrote:F-35 are overrated and overpriced. Would not buy yet. Rather wait a few years till they have figured them out and have been proved themself in combat.


I don't see how it's overrated. It's objectively better than it's predecessors.

User avatar
Novus America
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38385
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Novus America » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:34 am

-Ocelot- wrote:
Nakena wrote:F-35 are overrated and overpriced. Would not buy yet. Rather wait a few years till they have figured them out and have been proved themself in combat.


I don't see how it's overrated. It's objectively better than it's predecessors.


It is but she has a valid point that if you wait a few years for the kinks to get worked out and the price to go down (the sunk development costs need to be recouped, the more planes sold, the less of this cost will appear in the price) you might get a better deal.

Imagine if a plane program costs 100 million in sunk developments costs. Each plane costs 10 million to make. If you only sell one it costs 110 million per plane. Sell ten planes 20 million per plane. Sell 100 only 11 million per plane.
And one it is all paid off they only cost 10 million.
Last edited by Novus America on Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

User avatar
Loben The 2nd
Senator
 
Posts: 4410
Founded: Apr 29, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Loben The 2nd » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:35 am

good on US, now we need to find a new buyer.

Maybe Korea wants a few.
no quarter.
Satisfaction guaranteed.

User avatar
Kernen
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9966
Founded: Mar 02, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Kernen » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:41 am

Khataiy wrote:Objectively speaking, this only hurts the US, the fact Turkey has received Russian produced anti-aircraft systems should actually is a benefit for NATO, the stated concerns over the S-400 system being an "intelligence" project for the Russians are a bit of an outlandish claim, in fact this is a major plus for NATO intelligence on the nature of the S-400 system and its weaknesses and how to use its technology to adapt NATO equipment including future jets and countering it. Turkey really didn't loose much from the F-35s but the S-400s simply are the better option. Bad move by NATO.

It really isn't.

Any defense system will have to be integrated with existing technology so the defense system doesn't shoot allied aircraft or vehicles. A defense system this advanced uses a lot of metrics for measuring, and would have to integrate or account for the systems that make the F-35 particularly stealthy when it comes to targeting. The US cannot rule out that the S-400 platform would not be accessible by Russians electronically. So any integrated defense is going to expose information we have an interest in keeping safe to the people we're trying to stay safe from.

If the technology in the F-35 is really as advanced as we're acting like it is, which in fairness it probably is, efficiency in development aside, this is the only safe move.
From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Lawful Evil

Get abortions, do drugs, own guns, but never misstate legal procedure.

User avatar
An Alan Smithee Nation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7623
Founded: Apr 18, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:41 am

Loben The 2nd wrote:good on US, now we need to find a new buyer.

Maybe Korea wants a few.



North or South?
Everything is intertwinkled

User avatar
Loben The 2nd
Senator
 
Posts: 4410
Founded: Apr 29, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Loben The 2nd » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:42 am

Kernen wrote:
Khataiy wrote:Objectively speaking, this only hurts the US, the fact Turkey has received Russian produced anti-aircraft systems should actually is a benefit for NATO, the stated concerns over the S-400 system being an "intelligence" project for the Russians are a bit of an outlandish claim, in fact this is a major plus for NATO intelligence on the nature of the S-400 system and its weaknesses and how to use its technology to adapt NATO equipment including future jets and countering it. Turkey really didn't loose much from the F-35s but the S-400s simply are the better option. Bad move by NATO.

It really isn't.

Any defense system will have to be integrated with existing technology so the defense system doesn't shoot allied aircraft or vehicles. A defense system this advanced uses a lot of metrics for measuring, and would have to integrate or account for the systems that make the F-35 particularly stealthy when it comes to targeting. The US cannot rule out that the S-400 platform would not be accessible by Russians electronically. So any integrated defense is going to expose information we have an interest in keeping safe to the people we're trying to stay safe from.

If the technology in the F-35 is really as advanced as we're acting like it is, which in fairness it probably is, efficiency in development aside, this is the only safe move.


tbh we should also cut Britain out of the F-35 too.
no quarter.
Satisfaction guaranteed.

User avatar
Kernen
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9966
Founded: Mar 02, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Kernen » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:43 am

Loben The 2nd wrote:
Kernen wrote:It really isn't.

Any defense system will have to be integrated with existing technology so the defense system doesn't shoot allied aircraft or vehicles. A defense system this advanced uses a lot of metrics for measuring, and would have to integrate or account for the systems that make the F-35 particularly stealthy when it comes to targeting. The US cannot rule out that the S-400 platform would not be accessible by Russians electronically. So any integrated defense is going to expose information we have an interest in keeping safe to the people we're trying to stay safe from.

If the technology in the F-35 is really as advanced as we're acting like it is, which in fairness it probably is, efficiency in development aside, this is the only safe move.


tbh we should also cut Britain out of the F-35 too.


I am entirely unclear on UK electronic security or integration with non-ally systems, so I couldn't begin to speak on it.
From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Lawful Evil

Get abortions, do drugs, own guns, but never misstate legal procedure.

User avatar
Scomagia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18703
Founded: Apr 14, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Scomagia » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:43 am

Good. Turkies have no business piloting fighter planes. :)
Insert trite farewell here

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ancientania, El Lazaro, Finland SSR, General TN, Herador, Hiram Land, Magical Hypnosis Border Collie of Doom, Mergold-Aurlia, Staidear, Valentine Z

Advertisement

Remove ads