NATION

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Prevent and why it's okay for young Muslims to be radical.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Rojava Free State
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Founded: Feb 06, 2018
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Postby Rojava Free State » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:27 am

Khataiy wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
So animals are treated better in the Quran than gay people, polytheists and apostates? Not that I hate dogs, since I do own one, but seriously something is wrong when you try to prove Islam is inherently peaceful but instead prove that Islam values the lives of even bugs more than it values other people's lives

Yes we do not respect sin and vice.


>implying there's something wrong with two men being into each other or people not believing in what you believe
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Khataiy
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Founded: Apr 22, 2018
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Khataiy » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:28 am

Rojava Free State wrote:
Khataiy wrote:Yes we do not respect sin and vice.


>implying there's something wrong with two men being into each other or people not believing in what you believe

I do believe homosexuality is an evil act that God has condemned and cursed regardless of genetics, how natural it is, or if it is a choice it is condemned by God.

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Rojava Free State
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Founded: Feb 06, 2018
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Postby Rojava Free State » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:31 am

Khataiy wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
>implying there's something wrong with two men being into each other or people not believing in what you believe

I do believe homosexuality is an evil act that God has condemned and cursed regardless of genetics, how natural it is, or if it is a choice it is condemned by God.


Why is being gay evil? What is dangerous about it to you?
political compass:

Economic Left/Right: -0.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.38
pro: marijuana, gun rights, private property, and sexy brown women

anti: fascism, communism, islamism, sexism, pan africanism, La raza, Warren Police Department (and most of the other police departments of metro Detroit except for Auburn Hills. They're aight), gun control, trump, obama, bush, clinton, reagan, carter, chipotle and snotty in crowd teens. Ugh I can't deal with them
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Wunderstrafanstalt
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Founded: Feb 19, 2017
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Postby Wunderstrafanstalt » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:35 am

Khataiy wrote:
Wunderstrafanstalt wrote:Thing is many hadiths are quite straightforward in their wording ("if someone changes his religion, kill him"). Making it harder to conform with my Islam deradicalization list.

Solution: ISIS hates it! Use this one simple trick commonly used by moderate ulemas to reconform Islam when faced with unwinnable moral challenge: "It doesn't apply anymore".

Muhammad orders Muslims to kill dogs in Madinah (experts says it is to control disease or something). Then he reduce it to black dogs only, as they are literally satan. And overtime (this part is a bit unclear to me), in 2019 Muslims are not supposed to, you know, exterminate innocent dogs anymore as there are no merits on doing that.

Imagine applying the same logic to stoning, LGBT/non-muslim/ex-muslim persecution, child marriage, etc.

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “A man suffered from thirst while he was walking on a journey. When he found a well, he climbed down into it and drank from it. Then he came out and saw a dog lolling its tongue from thirst and licking the ground. The man said: This dog has suffered thirst just as I have suffered from it. He climbed down into the well, filled his shoe with water, and caught it in his mouth as he climbed up. Then he gave the dog a drink. Allah appreciated this deed, so he forgave him.” They said, “O Messenger of Allah, is there a reward for charity even for the animals?” The Prophet said, “Yes, in every creature with a moist liver is a reward for charity.”

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 5663, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2244

Our Sharia is eternal, clear and will remain the same until the final hour.


Maimuna reported that one morning Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was silent with grief. Maimuna said: Allah's Messenger, I find a change in your mood today. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Gabriel had promised me that he would meet me tonight, but he did not meet me. By Allah, he never broke his promises, and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) spent the day in this sad (mood). Then it occurred to him that there had been a puppy under their cot. He commanded and it was turned out. He then took some water in his hand and sprinkled it at that place. When it was evening Gabriel met him and he said to him: you promised me that you would meet me the previous night. He said: Yes, but we do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture. Then on that very morning he commanded the killing of the dogs until he announced that the dog kept for the orchards should also be killed, but he spared the dog meant for the protection of extensive fields (or big gardens). Sahih Muslim 24:5248

Abdullah (b. Umar) (Allah be pleased with them) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) ordered the killing of dogs and we would send (men) in Medina and its corners and we did not spare any dog that we did not kill, so much so that we killed the dog that accompanied the wet she-camel belonging to the people of the desert. Sahih Muslim 10:3811

Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah: The Prophet of Allah (peace be upon him) ordered to kill dogs, and we were even killing a dog which a woman brought with her from the desert. Afterwards he forbade to kill them, saying: Confine yourselves to the type which is black. Sahih Muslim 16:2840

Narrated Abdullah ibn Mughaffal: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Were dogs not a species of creature I should command that they all be killed; but kill every pure black one. Sahih Muslim 16:2839

Contradiction. And it is a good thing that the killings are stopped, as poor understanding (the prophet want to control rabies/disease and kill satan spawns) can easily lead to bad result (canine speciescide). I have to also state that the claim on the prophet's intention is dubious as I haven't seen any actual hadith confirming it.

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Khataiy
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Founded: Apr 22, 2018
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Khataiy » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:36 am

Rojava Free State wrote:
Khataiy wrote:I do believe homosexuality is an evil act that God has condemned and cursed regardless of genetics, how natural it is, or if it is a choice it is condemned by God.


Why is being gay evil? What is dangerous about it to you?

Because God has declared it as such, he destroyed the people of Sodom and Gemorrah for their act, I never considered it dangerous but since you mention it, HIV and AIDS are heavily connected to fornication, homosexuality and drug use all things banned in Islam, I also find the culture surrounding homosexuality to be rather grotesque, where men dress as women, wearing make up and it extends further into a series of gender issues and so on. Aside from that the act of sodomy is utterly digusting and revolting escpcially consdiering what the body uses those parts for, even if I was an atheist, I would oppose homosexuality and what it comes with.

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Khataiy
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Postby Khataiy » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:37 am

Wunderstrafanstalt wrote:
Khataiy wrote:Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “A man suffered from thirst while he was walking on a journey. When he found a well, he climbed down into it and drank from it. Then he came out and saw a dog lolling its tongue from thirst and licking the ground. The man said: This dog has suffered thirst just as I have suffered from it. He climbed down into the well, filled his shoe with water, and caught it in his mouth as he climbed up. Then he gave the dog a drink. Allah appreciated this deed, so he forgave him.” They said, “O Messenger of Allah, is there a reward for charity even for the animals?” The Prophet said, “Yes, in every creature with a moist liver is a reward for charity.”

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 5663, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2244

Our Sharia is eternal, clear and will remain the same until the final hour.


Maimuna reported that one morning Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was silent with grief. Maimuna said: Allah's Messenger, I find a change in your mood today. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Gabriel had promised me that he would meet me tonight, but he did not meet me. By Allah, he never broke his promises, and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) spent the day in this sad (mood). Then it occurred to him that there had been a puppy under their cot. He commanded and it was turned out. He then took some water in his hand and sprinkled it at that place. When it was evening Gabriel met him and he said to him: you promised me that you would meet me the previous night. He said: Yes, but we do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture. Then on that very morning he commanded the killing of the dogs until he announced that the dog kept for the orchards should also be killed, but he spared the dog meant for the protection of extensive fields (or big gardens). Sahih Muslim 24:5248

Abdullah (b. Umar) (Allah be pleased with them) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) ordered the killing of dogs and we would send (men) in Medina and its corners and we did not spare any dog that we did not kill, so much so that we killed the dog that accompanied the wet she-camel belonging to the people of the desert. Sahih Muslim 10:3811

Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah: The Prophet of Allah (peace be upon him) ordered to kill dogs, and we were even killing a dog which a woman brought with her from the desert. Afterwards he forbade to kill them, saying: Confine yourselves to the type which is black. Sahih Muslim 16:2840

Narrated Abdullah ibn Mughaffal: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Were dogs not a species of creature I should command that they all be killed; but kill every pure black one. Sahih Muslim 16:2839

Contradiction. And it is a good thing that the killings are stopped, as poor understanding (the prophet want to control rabies/disease and kill satan spawns) can easily lead to bad result (canine speciescide). I have to also state that the claim on the prophet's intention is dubious as I haven't seen any actual hadith confirming it.

I love non-Muslim ulema teaching me my religion.

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Wunderstrafanstalt
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Posts: 568
Founded: Feb 19, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Wunderstrafanstalt » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:38 am

Rojava Free State wrote:
Khataiy wrote:Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “A man suffered from thirst while he was walking on a journey. When he found a well, he climbed down into it and drank from it. Then he came out and saw a dog lolling its tongue from thirst and licking the ground. The man said: This dog has suffered thirst just as I have suffered from it. He climbed down into the well, filled his shoe with water, and caught it in his mouth as he climbed up. Then he gave the dog a drink. Allah appreciated this deed, so he forgave him.” They said, “O Messenger of Allah, is there a reward for charity even for the animals?” The Prophet said, “Yes, in every creature with a moist liver is a reward for charity.”

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 5663, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2244

Our Sharia is eternal, clear and will remain the same until the final hour.


So animals are treated better in the Quran than gay people, polytheists and apostates? Not that I hate dogs, since I do own one, but seriously something is wrong when you try to prove Islam is inherently peaceful but instead prove that Islam values the lives of even bugs more than it values other people's lives


Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are those who have disbelieved, and they will not [ever] believe (Quran 8:55)

So infidels (us) is literally worse than cockroach and diarrhea-enduncing amoebas. Go figure.

CFR WUNDERSTRAFANSTALT - LAIRAN UNION
"Ad astra et ultra" - "To the stars and beyond"

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Voiced - Artemsday, 12019-5-7: PT party pledged vote for Kalvar's Green Initiative | PETRAL donated Ł1.1 mil to PT | PT voted against Green Initiative.
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Petrolheadia
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Petrolheadia » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:39 am

Khataiy wrote:
Wunderstrafanstalt wrote:
Maimuna reported that one morning Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was silent with grief. Maimuna said: Allah's Messenger, I find a change in your mood today. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Gabriel had promised me that he would meet me tonight, but he did not meet me. By Allah, he never broke his promises, and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) spent the day in this sad (mood). Then it occurred to him that there had been a puppy under their cot. He commanded and it was turned out. He then took some water in his hand and sprinkled it at that place. When it was evening Gabriel met him and he said to him: you promised me that you would meet me the previous night. He said: Yes, but we do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture. Then on that very morning he commanded the killing of the dogs until he announced that the dog kept for the orchards should also be killed, but he spared the dog meant for the protection of extensive fields (or big gardens). Sahih Muslim 24:5248

Abdullah (b. Umar) (Allah be pleased with them) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) ordered the killing of dogs and we would send (men) in Medina and its corners and we did not spare any dog that we did not kill, so much so that we killed the dog that accompanied the wet she-camel belonging to the people of the desert. Sahih Muslim 10:3811

Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah: The Prophet of Allah (peace be upon him) ordered to kill dogs, and we were even killing a dog which a woman brought with her from the desert. Afterwards he forbade to kill them, saying: Confine yourselves to the type which is black. Sahih Muslim 16:2840

Narrated Abdullah ibn Mughaffal: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Were dogs not a species of creature I should command that they all be killed; but kill every pure black one. Sahih Muslim 16:2839

Contradiction. And it is a good thing that the killings are stopped, as poor understanding (the prophet want to control rabies/disease and kill satan spawns) can easily lead to bad result (canine speciescide). I have to also state that the claim on the prophet's intention is dubious as I haven't seen any actual hadith confirming it.

I love non-Muslim ulema teaching me my religion.

I guess you needed some outside education.
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Khataiy
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Khataiy » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:41 am

Petrolheadia wrote:
Khataiy wrote:I love non-Muslim ulema teaching me my religion.

I guess you needed some outside education.

Why should I take knowledge from some random non-Muslim on the internet quoting hadiths that I A. already know and B. likely have better understanding of given the time I've personally dedicated to studying my religion from actual Islamic scholars that were studying Islam before must of us were even born and have extensive and recognize knowledge in specific matters and are generally respected as scholars of Islam.

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Wunderstrafanstalt
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Corporate Bordello

Postby Wunderstrafanstalt » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:42 am

Khataiy wrote:
Wunderstrafanstalt wrote:
Maimuna reported that one morning Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was silent with grief. Maimuna said: Allah's Messenger, I find a change in your mood today. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Gabriel had promised me that he would meet me tonight, but he did not meet me. By Allah, he never broke his promises, and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) spent the day in this sad (mood). Then it occurred to him that there had been a puppy under their cot. He commanded and it was turned out. He then took some water in his hand and sprinkled it at that place. When it was evening Gabriel met him and he said to him: you promised me that you would meet me the previous night. He said: Yes, but we do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture. Then on that very morning he commanded the killing of the dogs until he announced that the dog kept for the orchards should also be killed, but he spared the dog meant for the protection of extensive fields (or big gardens). Sahih Muslim 24:5248

Abdullah (b. Umar) (Allah be pleased with them) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) ordered the killing of dogs and we would send (men) in Medina and its corners and we did not spare any dog that we did not kill, so much so that we killed the dog that accompanied the wet she-camel belonging to the people of the desert. Sahih Muslim 10:3811

Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah: The Prophet of Allah (peace be upon him) ordered to kill dogs, and we were even killing a dog which a woman brought with her from the desert. Afterwards he forbade to kill them, saying: Confine yourselves to the type which is black. Sahih Muslim 16:2840

Narrated Abdullah ibn Mughaffal: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Were dogs not a species of creature I should command that they all be killed; but kill every pure black one. Sahih Muslim 16:2839

Contradiction. And it is a good thing that the killings are stopped, as poor understanding (the prophet want to control rabies/disease and kill satan spawns) can easily lead to bad result (canine speciescide). I have to also state that the claim on the prophet's intention is dubious as I haven't seen any actual hadith confirming it.

I love non-Muslim ulema teaching me my religion.

Actual verifiable hadith are actual verifiable hadiths, even if you don't personally agree with the content or whether it was referred by either Quraish Shihab or Richard Spencer.

CFR WUNDERSTRAFANSTALT - LAIRAN UNION
"Ad astra et ultra" - "To the stars and beyond"

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Voiced - Artemsday, 12019-5-7: PT party pledged vote for Kalvar's Green Initiative | PETRAL donated Ł1.1 mil to PT | PT voted against Green Initiative.
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Fahran
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:42 am

Khataiy wrote:It always brings me great pleasure when I see "Wahhabism and Salafism", neither ideology exists and just for fun saying they do 'exist' they are not new sects with new ideas, and what's even more humorous is when they are referred to as something separate from each other and the only thing that separates them is "Wahhabism is the Saudi variant" I don't even know what that means, because both "sects" originated from Saudi Arabia what makes one more "Saudi" than the other.

There is a very definitive distinction between the Salafi movement, which originated in Egypt, and the four mainstream Sunni madhahib, namely: Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, Hanbali. Salafis, who were substantially influenced by Wahhabis in this regard, consciously reject taqlid (strict adherence) to any of the aforementioned schools of Islamic law/jurisprudence and reject vast bodies of rulings and precedent as innovations in favor of adopting a version of Islam vaguely comparable to modern evangelical Christianity if Sunday Christians weren't a thing.

Khataiy wrote:"The Taliban is a Wahhabist movement backed by Saudi Arabia" just to take that apart, the Taliban is a Deobandi movement, Deobandis are not a new "sect" either what it means to be a Deobandi is to follow the teachings of the School of Ilm in Deoband, India, and a lot of times Deobandis will use this same language about "Wahhabism" and it gets even worse with the "Horn of Najd" and all that other stuff, that is a different subject however.

The Taliban are adherents to the Deobandi movement, not the Wahhabi movement, though the Deobandis have imported and embraced Wahhabi ideas since the 1970's. This isn't altogether surprising given the radicalization that occurred more broadly even before 1979, when the Ikhwan seized the Grand Mosque and the Iranian Revolution toppled the Shah. Deobandis are distinct from Wahhabis in that they are adherents of the Hanafi madhab, but they, like Salafis and Wahhabis, are Islamic revivalists who often engage in purism and literal readings of the Quran and hadiths more so that more traditional schools and movements.

Khataiy wrote:These are not new sects, they don't even exist, the term Wahhabi, its entomology comes from Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahab, and as a Muslim it is insulting to see the word "Wahhabi" because as mentioned it comes Abdul Wahab, which means the "Servant of the most Generous", in Islam we believe Allah has 99 names and al-Wahab is one of them, and to see the word thrown around like its an insult of some kind is actually offensive as it is direct insult to the name of Allah, and obviously opponents of Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahab don't want to call his supporters "Muhammadis" because that would mean they follow the teachings of Muhammad our Prophet.

The ideas introduced by these movements do not predate colonialism in a consistent paradigmatic way. The fact that we can distinguish between the tendencies and arguments of Wahhabis, Salafis, Deobandis, and other schools of Islamic law/jurisprudence suggests that, even if they do not constitute formal movements, a debatable claim at best given Saudi sponsorship of Wahhabism globally, they do at the very least function in a noticeably different way to mainline Hanafis, Hanbalis, etc.

Khataiy wrote:The actual history of this vile term, comes from the clerics of Post-Revolution Iran, they would call Muslims "Wahhabis" that either denounced them, or opposed them, they say if you don't believe Shiism is part of Islam, which is a view that existed for hundreds of years before the birth of Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahab, by the so-called "Sunni Orthodoxy" and Sunni scholars including Abu Hanifa which founded the largest Sunni school of Islam whose followers are known as Hanafis, you're a Wahhabi, if you oppose Hezbollah you're a Wahhabi, if you don't believe in Ashura you're a Wahhabi and it goes on and on.

There's a definitive difference between clerics influenced by the teachings of Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahab and those influenced by other religious leaders and scholars. I've already pointed out a rather important distinction between Wahhabi-influenced Muslims and Muslims who adhere to mainline madhahib. Also, I'm not as familiar with Arabic as I could wish but doesn't the article al- being removed mean that the term Wahhabi doesn't explicitly refer to one of G-d's ninety nine names anymore? I mean... people use Malik as a name in the Arab world despite al-M-lik being one of G-d's names.
Last edited by Fahran on Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Khataiy
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Postby Khataiy » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:43 am

Wunderstrafanstalt wrote:
Khataiy wrote:I love non-Muslim ulema teaching me my religion.

Actual verifiable hadith are actual verifiable hadiths, even if you don't personally agree with the content or whether it was referred by either Quraish Shihab or Richard Spencer.

I have read most of Sahih Bukhari mutliple times, along with Muwwata Malik, and a good portion of Sahih Muslim, Trimidhi and Musnad Ahmed, as well as the Quran cover to cover, I am not a scholar but thanks for the attempt to try to educate me.

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Petrolheadia
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Posts: 11128
Founded: May 02, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Petrolheadia » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:44 am

Khataiy wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:I guess you needed some outside education.

Why should I take knowledge from some random non-Muslim on the internet quoting hadiths that I A. already know and B. likely have better understanding of given the time I've personally dedicated to studying my religion from actual Islamic scholars that were studying Islam before must of us were even born and have extensive and recognize knowledge in specific matters and are generally respected as scholars of Islam.

OK, then explain the real meaning if you know it.
Capitalism, single-payer healthcare, pro-choice, LGBT rights, progressive personal taxation, low corporate tax, pro-business law, welfare for those in need.
Communism, socialism, Nazism, edgism, dogmatic statements, multiculturalism, most of Abrahamic-derived morality (esp. as law), welfare for those not in need.
We are not Albania and I am not Albanian, FFS!
Male, gearhead, classic rock fan, gamer, agnostic, centre-libertarian.
Where you can talk about cars!
"They're always saying I'm a Capitalist pig. I suppose I am, but, ah...it ah...it's good for my drumming, I think." - Keith Moon,
If a Porsche owner treats it like a bicycle, he's a gentleman. And if he prays to it, he's simply a moron. - Jan Nowicki.

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Rojava Free State
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Founded: Feb 06, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Rojava Free State » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:46 am

Wunderstrafanstalt wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
So animals are treated better in the Quran than gay people, polytheists and apostates? Not that I hate dogs, since I do own one, but seriously something is wrong when you try to prove Islam is inherently peaceful but instead prove that Islam values the lives of even bugs more than it values other people's lives


Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are those who have disbelieved, and they will not [ever] believe (Quran 8:55)

So infidels (us) is literally worse than cockroach and diarrhea-enduncing amoebas. Go figure.


If that isn't hate, I don't know what is
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Wunderstrafanstalt
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Founded: Feb 19, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Wunderstrafanstalt » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:46 am

Rojava Free State wrote:
Khataiy wrote:Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “A man suffered from thirst while he was walking on a journey. When he found a well, he climbed down into it and drank from it. Then he came out and saw a dog lolling its tongue from thirst and licking the ground. The man said: This dog has suffered thirst just as I have suffered from it. He climbed down into the well, filled his shoe with water, and caught it in his mouth as he climbed up. Then he gave the dog a drink. Allah appreciated this deed, so he forgave him.” They said, “O Messenger of Allah, is there a reward for charity even for the animals?” The Prophet said, “Yes, in every creature with a moist liver is a reward for charity.”

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 5663, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2244

Our Sharia is eternal, clear and will remain the same until the final hour.


So animals are treated better in the Quran than gay people, polytheists and apostates? Not that I hate dogs, since I do own one, but seriously something is wrong when you try to prove Islam is inherently peaceful but instead prove that Islam values the lives of even bugs more than it values other people's lives

On a more serious note, because God says so. Before I embarked on the journey to find the truth, I (a Misotheist) said to myself "well, if Islam is the truth, guess I have no choice but to obey everything however disdainful or illogical. God probably know better, etc."

CFR WUNDERSTRAFANSTALT - LAIRAN UNION
"Ad astra et ultra" - "To the stars and beyond"

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Voiced - Artemsday, 12019-5-7: PT party pledged vote for Kalvar's Green Initiative | PETRAL donated Ł1.1 mil to PT | PT voted against Green Initiative.
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Rojava Free State
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Posts: 3437
Founded: Feb 06, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Rojava Free State » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:48 am

Khataiy wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
Why is being gay evil? What is dangerous about it to you?

Because God has declared it as such, he destroyed the people of Sodom and Gemorrah for their act, I never considered it dangerous but since you mention it, HIV and AIDS are heavily connected to fornication, homosexuality and drug use all things banned in Islam, I also find the culture surrounding homosexuality to be rather grotesque, where men dress as women, wearing make up and it extends further into a series of gender issues and so on. Aside from that the act of sodomy is utterly digusting and revolting escpcially consdiering what the body uses those parts for, even if I was an atheist, I would oppose homosexuality and what it comes with.



HIV and Aids come from unsafe sex whether gay or straight, so not only is it not caused by being gay but it really isn't caused by "fornication" either. It's like arguing that cars are inherently evil cause they can cause accidents. As for dressing like women, that literally harms no one. It may be weird but weird doesn't mean it's evil. And just because a God in a story killed people because he was triggered doesn't mean it's wrong to be gay. It just means the people who wrote the story were violent bigots that shouldn't be listened to
political compass:

Economic Left/Right: -0.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.38
pro: marijuana, gun rights, private property, and sexy brown women

anti: fascism, communism, islamism, sexism, pan africanism, La raza, Warren Police Department (and most of the other police departments of metro Detroit except for Auburn Hills. They're aight), gun control, trump, obama, bush, clinton, reagan, carter, chipotle and snotty in crowd teens. Ugh I can't deal with them
Half Lebanese, Half Puerto Rican. All american. Not Kurdish at all.

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Wunderstrafanstalt
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Posts: 568
Founded: Feb 19, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Wunderstrafanstalt » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:49 am

Rojava Free State wrote:
Khataiy wrote:Because God has declared it as such, he destroyed the people of Sodom and Gemorrah for their act, I never considered it dangerous but since you mention it, HIV and AIDS are heavily connected to fornication, homosexuality and drug use all things banned in Islam, I also find the culture surrounding homosexuality to be rather grotesque, where men dress as women, wearing make up and it extends further into a series of gender issues and so on. Aside from that the act of sodomy is utterly digusting and revolting escpcially consdiering what the body uses those parts for, even if I was an atheist, I would oppose homosexuality and what it comes with.



HIV and Aids come from unsafe sex whether gay or straight, so not only is it not caused by being gay but it really isn't caused by "fornication" either. It's like arguing that cars are inherently evil cause they can cause accidents. As for dressing like women, that literally harms no one. It may be weird but weird doesn't mean it's evil. And just because a God in a story killed people because he was triggered doesn't mean it's wrong to be gay. It just means the people who wrote the story were violent bigots that shouldn't be listened to

God knows best and humans are stupid.

CFR WUNDERSTRAFANSTALT - LAIRAN UNION
"Ad astra et ultra" - "To the stars and beyond"

14.0 | MT | F17 | $LFD | Kurzgesagt | IC Flag | Flag Patron: Bill Gates

Voiced - Artemsday, 12019-5-7: PT party pledged vote for Kalvar's Green Initiative | PETRAL donated Ł1.1 mil to PT | PT voted against Green Initiative.
Your average lowkey maritime Southeast Asian on NS | C e n t r i s t social liberal | Muslim (secretly atheist, don't tell mom) | RK for President 2024, Musk for Planetary Emperor 2100
Just refer to me as "WS" instead of that long-ass name

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Rojava Free State
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Posts: 3437
Founded: Feb 06, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Rojava Free State » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:51 am

Wunderstrafanstalt wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
So animals are treated better in the Quran than gay people, polytheists and apostates? Not that I hate dogs, since I do own one, but seriously something is wrong when you try to prove Islam is inherently peaceful but instead prove that Islam values the lives of even bugs more than it values other people's lives

On a more serious note, because God says so. Before I embarked on the journey to find the truth, I (a Misotheist) said to myself "well, if Islam is the truth, guess I have no choice but to obey everything however disdainful or illogical. God probably know better, etc."


And this is why religion actually destroys morality and doesn't support it. Religious morality is just "God said do it so do it." It could be the most heinous and uncivilized crap ever and people will follow through with murder and destruction because "god wills it." I the loathsome godless atheist on the other hand believe only those who commit unjust killing should be put to death. No other crime warrants execution, and the goal of our lives should be to minimize human suffering. How ironic that I believe that when according to the religious folks, I should wanna legalize all crime because without God there is no reason to not start the purge
political compass:

Economic Left/Right: -0.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.38
pro: marijuana, gun rights, private property, and sexy brown women

anti: fascism, communism, islamism, sexism, pan africanism, La raza, Warren Police Department (and most of the other police departments of metro Detroit except for Auburn Hills. They're aight), gun control, trump, obama, bush, clinton, reagan, carter, chipotle and snotty in crowd teens. Ugh I can't deal with them
Half Lebanese, Half Puerto Rican. All american. Not Kurdish at all.

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Khataiy
Minister
 
Posts: 2890
Founded: Apr 22, 2018
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Khataiy » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:52 am

Petrolheadia wrote:
Khataiy wrote:Why should I take knowledge from some random non-Muslim on the internet quoting hadiths that I A. already know and B. likely have better understanding of given the time I've personally dedicated to studying my religion from actual Islamic scholars that were studying Islam before must of us were even born and have extensive and recognize knowledge in specific matters and are generally respected as scholars of Islam.

OK, then explain the real meaning if you know it.

You would need to look at various other Ahadith of the Prophet (SAW) and Ayat of the Quran, the Fiqh in this is that the Prophet (SAW) did indeed order the extermination of dogs but it was done out of what was the greater good and what was beneficial. Omar Ibn Khattab (RA) suspended the application of Sharia temporairly during a time of war, but resumed it after. The Prophet said that giving nourishment to a dog is an act of charity, it is also known in the Islamic faith we consider animals to be Muslims and it is said in our religion Allah will judge between the horned and unhorned animals on the day of judgment, every animal from a pig to a dog or cat is a Muslim and worthy of our love and kindness, what occured during a period of time will be judged by Allah, but no blame shall befall the believers who carried it out as Allah has said in the Quran, "Obey Allah and his messenger."

Muslims in the west may not be able to apply Sharia where they are, but they must adhere to our religion and remain steadfast and sincere.

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Rojava Free State
Minister
 
Posts: 3437
Founded: Feb 06, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Rojava Free State » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:52 am

Wunderstrafanstalt wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:

HIV and Aids come from unsafe sex whether gay or straight, so not only is it not caused by being gay but it really isn't caused by "fornication" either. It's like arguing that cars are inherently evil cause they can cause accidents. As for dressing like women, that literally harms no one. It may be weird but weird doesn't mean it's evil. And just because a God in a story killed people because he was triggered doesn't mean it's wrong to be gay. It just means the people who wrote the story were violent bigots that shouldn't be listened to

God knows best and humans are stupid.


Trust the unseen entity that may or may not exist with your very life
political compass:

Economic Left/Right: -0.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.38
pro: marijuana, gun rights, private property, and sexy brown women

anti: fascism, communism, islamism, sexism, pan africanism, La raza, Warren Police Department (and most of the other police departments of metro Detroit except for Auburn Hills. They're aight), gun control, trump, obama, bush, clinton, reagan, carter, chipotle and snotty in crowd teens. Ugh I can't deal with them
Half Lebanese, Half Puerto Rican. All american. Not Kurdish at all.

User avatar
Wunderstrafanstalt
Diplomat
 
Posts: 568
Founded: Feb 19, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Wunderstrafanstalt » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:57 am

Petrolheadia wrote:
Khataiy wrote:Why should I take knowledge from some random non-Muslim on the internet quoting hadiths that I A. already know and B. likely have better understanding of given the time I've personally dedicated to studying my religion from actual Islamic scholars that were studying Islam before must of us were even born and have extensive and recognize knowledge in specific matters and are generally respected as scholars of Islam.

OK, then explain the real meaning if you know it.

My point is that Muhammad 1) orders something that wasn't really revoked and 2) wasn't followed anymore, which can then be justified by other hadith such as the dog+well+shoe story (one of the actually good hadith, I might add).

Therefor, the combination of
1) Public opposition/pressure against the persecution of non-Muslims, ex-Muslims, and LGBT
2) Islamic hadith/verse that supports peace, non violence, and tolerance

Have a real potential in bringing freedom, equality and greatly alleviate the living conditions of those persecuted groups. Or at least end their active persecution.

CFR WUNDERSTRAFANSTALT - LAIRAN UNION
"Ad astra et ultra" - "To the stars and beyond"

14.0 | MT | F17 | $LFD | Kurzgesagt | IC Flag | Flag Patron: Bill Gates

Voiced - Artemsday, 12019-5-7: PT party pledged vote for Kalvar's Green Initiative | PETRAL donated Ł1.1 mil to PT | PT voted against Green Initiative.
Your average lowkey maritime Southeast Asian on NS | C e n t r i s t social liberal | Muslim (secretly atheist, don't tell mom) | RK for President 2024, Musk for Planetary Emperor 2100
Just refer to me as "WS" instead of that long-ass name

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Al Mumtahanah
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1709
Founded: Jun 21, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Al Mumtahanah » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:27 am

Fahran wrote:
Khataiy wrote:There is a very definitive distinction between the Salafi movement, which originated in Egypt, and the four mainstream Sunni madhahib, namely: Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, Hanbali. Salafis, who were substantially influenced by Wahhabis in this regard, consciously reject taqlid (strict adherence) to any of the aforementioned schools of Islamic law/jurisprudence and reject vast bodies of rulings and precedent as innovations in favor of adopting a version of Islam vaguely comparable to modern evangelical Christianity if Sunday Christians weren't a thing.


The Taliban are adherents to the Deobandi movement, not the Wahhabi movement, though the Deobandis have imported and embraced Wahhabi ideas since the 1970's. This isn't altogether surprising given the radicalization that occurred more broadly even before 1979, when the Ikhwan seized the Grand Mosque and the Iranian Revolution toppled the Shah. Deobandis are distinct from Wahhabis in that they are adherents of the Hanafi madhab, but they, like Salafis and Wahhabis, are Islamic revivalists who often engage in purism and literal readings of the Quran and hadiths more so that more traditional schools and movements.


The ideas introduced by these movements do not predate colonialism in a consistent paradigmatic way. The fact that we can distinguish between the tendencies and arguments of Wahhabis, Salafis, Deobandis, and other schools of Islamic law/jurisprudence suggests that, even if they do not constitute formal movements, a debatable claim at best given Saudi sponsorship of Wahhabism globally, they do at the very least function in a noticeably different way to mainline Hanafis, Hanbalis, etc.


There's a definitive difference between clerics influenced by the teachings of Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahab and those influenced by other religious leaders and scholars. I've already pointed out a rather important distinction between Wahhabi-influenced Muslims and Muslims who adhere to mainline madhahib. Also, I'm not as familiar with Arabic as I could wish but doesn't the article al- being removed mean that the term Wahhabi doesn't explicitly refer to one of G-d's ninety nine names anymore? I mean... people use Malik as a name in the Arab world despite al-M-lik being one of G-d's names.


Wahhabi is mostly used as a colloquialism for Hanbali, so is Salafi.
Ifreann wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:How about if I don't wanna learn about Islam I shouldn't have to?

Makes about as much sense as letting kids decide that if they don't wanna eat then they shouldn't have to.

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Al Mumtahanah
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1709
Founded: Jun 21, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Al Mumtahanah » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:34 am

Wunderstrafanstalt wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:OK, then explain the real meaning if you know it.

My point is that Muhammad 1) orders something that wasn't really revoked and 2) wasn't followed anymore, which can then be justified by other hadith such as the dog+well+shoe story (one of the actually good hadith, I might add).

Therefor, the combination of
1) Public opposition/pressure against the persecution of non-Muslims, ex-Muslims, and LGBT
2) Islamic hadith/verse that supports peace, non violence, and tolerance

Have a real potential in bringing freedom, equality and greatly alleviate the living conditions of those persecuted groups. Or at least end their active persecution.

Doesn't work like that, which Ahadith are used to simply instruct and which have binding legal weight is pretty well established though it differs somewhat from madhab to madhab and even within a madhab, they still have established that certain things are criminal and that is agree by all.
Ifreann wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:How about if I don't wanna learn about Islam I shouldn't have to?

Makes about as much sense as letting kids decide that if they don't wanna eat then they shouldn't have to.

User avatar
Wunderstrafanstalt
Diplomat
 
Posts: 568
Founded: Feb 19, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Wunderstrafanstalt » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:37 am

Wunderstrafanstalt wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:OK, then explain the real meaning if you know it.

My point is that Muhammad 1) orders something that wasn't really revoked and 2) wasn't followed anymore, which can then be justified by other hadith such as the dog+well+shoe story (one of the actually good hadith, I might add).

Therefor, the combination of
1) Public opposition/pressure against the persecution of non-Muslims, ex-Muslims, and LGBT
2) Islamic hadith/verse that supports peace, non violence, and tolerance

Have a real potential in bringing freedom, equality and greatly alleviate the living conditions of those persecuted groups. Or at least end their active persecution.


At least, we can eliminate Muslim support of these barbaric acts and forbid these practice:
  1. Endangering and sadistically killing LGBT+ people, including a friend of mine.
  2. Endangering and killing ex Muslims, including myself and my friends.
  3. Endangering and killing critics, including myself.
  4. Endangering and killing those who oppose the establishment of the caliphate or sharia state, including me, my family, my friends, and hundreds of millions of fellow nationalist patriots.
  5. Endangering and sadistically killing adulterers. Their action are bad but that in no way justify the brutal punishment.
  6. Violent forced subjugation and colonization of non-Muslims, including my friends and millions of others.
  7. Statutory rape.
  8. Marital rape.
  9. Mobilizing real, systematic, massive hateful sentiments against persecuted or minority groups, also Jews, liberals, Westerners, reformists, differing denominations, Ahmadis, Baha'i, etc.

CFR WUNDERSTRAFANSTALT - LAIRAN UNION
"Ad astra et ultra" - "To the stars and beyond"

14.0 | MT | F17 | $LFD | Kurzgesagt | IC Flag | Flag Patron: Bill Gates

Voiced - Artemsday, 12019-5-7: PT party pledged vote for Kalvar's Green Initiative | PETRAL donated Ł1.1 mil to PT | PT voted against Green Initiative.
Your average lowkey maritime Southeast Asian on NS | C e n t r i s t social liberal | Muslim (secretly atheist, don't tell mom) | RK for President 2024, Musk for Planetary Emperor 2100
Just refer to me as "WS" instead of that long-ass name

User avatar
Fahran
Senator
 
Posts: 4752
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:49 am

Al Mumtahanah wrote:Wahhabi is mostly used as a colloquialism for Hanbali, so is Salafi.

They differ on fiqh and on the emphasis given to particular theological issues. We know, for instance, that medieval Hanbali literature refers to saints, grave visitation, miracles, and relics with a frequency that would make a Salafi's head spin. Medieval Hanbalis, and even Hanbalis prior to the advent of revivalism in the early modern period, also didn't possess the same adversarial attitude towards Sufism, with several notable Hanbali jurists and scholars being Sufis as well. Beyond that, Salafis are not strictly beholden to the Hanbali madhab. By the way, as far as I can discern, the reason followers of Ibn Abd al-Wahhab prefer being called Salafis is to stave off allegations of bid'ah since they maintain that Wahhabism is the practice of Islam as it was originally intended by Mohammed and his companions.
Last edited by Fahran on Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Literally the worst.

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