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by Mahrenbach » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:55 am
by Minoa » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:22 am
by Attempted Socialism » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:57 am
I can't explain this, but there's nothing to suggest that there's anything biological at play.West Heisen wrote:Araraukar wrote:OOC: You have evidence to the contrary? Provide it then, please. And what are these gender role differences that are biological? And more importantly, whose traditions? Different cultures have different ideas of gender roles, which further proves that they're not biology-based.
Certainly, here is some of the evidence which I have seen:
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/02/ ... stem-grads
I've read dozens of papers doing the same thing: Take the NEOAC, survey enough people to get a representative sample, find that there are differences between men and women, correlate that with some metric for forwardness, and voila, you get a paper. I don't know how they get published, but it's junk: First, economic development is always a greater factor in the papers I've seen (Other factors vary; women in power seem to decrease the NEOAC gap). Does economic development produce different psychological responses? Personally I'm concerned that they're p-hacking based on their preconceived notions.https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2018/08/gender-personality-big-five-psychology/568087/
And the existence of matriarchical societies completely debunks the biological argument: If it's biologically determined, matriarchical societies can't exist. They did historically, and IIRC the Iroquois Confederacy still is.https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/political-correctness/the-gender-scandal-part-one-scandinavia-and-part-two-canada/
I was referring to Western traditions, as that is where I live. I acknowledge that there are differences with other cultures, but often many similarities, in terms of gender roles, can be drawn as well, such as in the case of Christianity and Islam.
Represented in the World Assembly by Ambassador Robert Mortimer Pride, called The Regicide Assume OOC unless otherwise indicated. My WA Authorship. | Cui Bono, quod seipsos custodes custodiunt? Bobberino: "The academic tone shines through." | Who am I in real life, my opinions and notes My NS career |
by Lamebrainia » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:15 am
No, it doesn't have to. Why should taxpayers be paying for cosmetic surgery? Especially for cosmetic surgery that not only does not reduce the suicide and homicide rates but actually increases the risk for them?Separatist Peoples wrote:OOC: You can make them pay for it. It just has to be accessible and affordable.
Very funny. I assume you have never experienced what happens when people of different cultural backgrounds are put into the same room without any attempts to make them speak a common language and follow the same set of cultural protocols. I have studied in such environments when I was a kid and a young adult (one experience that comes to mind was a multicultural class at a German gymnasium, where people of various German proficiency levels were put to learn German and German customs).Sierra Lyricalia wrote:OOC: "Integration harms racial minorities. It doesn't do anyone any good to put all ethnicities in the same classroom. I know because I have black friends..."
I do not think gender studies really qualify as a science. And subjective experiences do not qualify as facts. If I am not Napoleon, but I feel like Napoleon, it does not mean that society has to accept it. If you see a "scientist" claim the existence of a plethora of genders, you should be very sceptical about their research.San Felix wrote:[...] people that feel like their sex (not Gender, science has proven countless times both of these things are different) [...]
That's false logic. It's like saying that irregular verbs exist in English, therefore verbs in English are irregular.Wallenburg wrote:That really doesn't matter. They exist. Therefore, sex is not binary.
No-one is disputing the fact that transgender people exist. But it doesn't change the fact that this type of surgery is cosmetic surgery. Perhaps, this is not a very good example, but a vast majority of women has self-image issues (for women in their fourties they sometimes run very deep; I know this because I work as a medical professional, and I hear "complaints" from my patients on a daily basis). Should the taxpayers be paying for cosmetic surgeries for those women to decrease suicide and divorce rates? I don't think so.Tinfect wrote:[...] Every single drop of legitimate evidence supports transgender existence and transgender rights. This has been reiterated time and time again, in a million places, in a million different ways.
There is no "debate", there's the actually informed people, and the ignorant/bigoted. The former can be fixed; the latter is not worth engaging.
Here's an idea. Do some damn research yourself, and stop spouting nonsense then whining that people are being mean to you when they're explaining basic, easily verifiable facts for the millionth time.
by West Heisen » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:18 am
by Separatist Peoples » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:39 am
Lamebrainia wrote:No, it doesn't have to. Why should taxpayers be paying for cosmetic surgery? Especially for cosmetic surgery that not only does not reduce the suicide and homicide rates but actually increases the risk for them?Separatist Peoples wrote:OOC: You can make them pay for it. It just has to be accessible and affordable.
No-one is disputing the fact that transgender people exist. But it doesn't change the fact that this type of surgery is cosmetic surgery. Perhaps, this is not a very good example, but a vast majority of women has self-image issues (for women in their fourties they sometimes run very deep; I know this because I work as a medical professional, and I hear "complaints" from my patients on a daily basis). Should the taxpayers be paying for cosmetic surgeries for those women to decrease suicide and divorce rates? I don't think so.
And the fact that transgender people exist does not necessitate the use of personal pronouns or the invention of a so-called "gender spectrum". Accepting and welcoming people is one thing, but bending reality and science to accomodate them is another. It's a bit like claiming that the Solar System is geocentric in spite of contradicting evidence just to appease the Church.
by Araraukar » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:35 am
Lamebrainia wrote:No, it doesn't have to. Why should taxpayers be paying for cosmetic surgery? Especially for cosmetic surgery that not only does not reduce the suicide and homicide rates but actually increases the risk for them?Separatist Peoples wrote:OOC: You can make them pay for it. It just has to be accessible and affordable.
Lamebrainia wrote:I do not think gender studies really qualify as a science.
Lamebrainia wrote:And subjective experiences do not qualify as facts.
Lamebrainia wrote:If I am not Napoleon, but I feel like Napoleon, it does not mean that society has to accept it.
Lamebrainia wrote:If you see a "scientist" claim the existence of a plethora of genders, you should be very sceptical about their research.
Lamebrainia wrote:That's false logic. It's like saying that irregular verbs exist in English, therefore verbs in English are irregular.
Lamebrainia wrote:I am mentally ill
Lamebrainia wrote:Treating transgender people (or minorities) as victim groups does not do them any good.
West Heisen wrote:You raise good points, but I still feel as though biology has an impact on gender differences, though I'm not going to find more sources right now.
To return to a relevant topic, as I feel this conversation has strayed from the proposal, I still oppose it, as it requires HRT to be affordable. I do not believe that the government should fund it, nor should the government dictate prices to businesses.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by Mettaton-EX » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:09 am
Araraukar wrote:Also, where are you finding the increased risk post-transition? At least in Finland the research shows that suicide risk is reduced, though it does mention that the ones most likely to commit suicide after transition were at the greatest risk before it as well.
by Wallenburg » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:39 am
by Tinfect » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:46 am
Lamebrainia wrote:No, it doesn't have to. Why should taxpayers be paying for cosmetic surgery? Especially for cosmetic surgery that not only does not reduce the suicide and homicide rates but actually increases the risk for them?
Lamebrainia wrote:Very funny. I assume you have never experienced what happens when people of different cultural backgrounds are put into the same room without any attempts to make them speak a common language and follow the same set of cultural protocols. I have studied in such environments when I was a kid and a young adult (one experience that comes to mind was a multicultural class at a German gymnasium, where people of various German proficiency levels were put to learn German and German customs).
Lamebrainia wrote:I do not think gender studies really qualify as a science.
Lamebrainia wrote:No-one is disputing the fact that transgender people exist. But it doesn't change the fact that this type of surgery is cosmetic surgery.
Lamebrainia wrote:Perhaps, this is not a very good example,
Lamebrainia wrote:but a vast majority of women has self-image issues (for women in their fourties they sometimes run very deep; I know this because I work as a medical professional, and I hear "complaints" from my patients on a daily basis). Should the taxpayers be paying for cosmetic surgeries for those women to decrease suicide and divorce rates? I don't think so.
Lamebrainia wrote:And the fact that transgender people exist does not necessitate the use of personal pronouns or the invention of a so-called "gender spectrum". Accepting and welcoming people is one thing, but bending reality and science to accomodate them is another. It's a bit like claiming that the Solar System is geocentric in spite of contradicting evidence just to appease the Church.
Lamebrainia wrote:I am mentally ill, but I do not expect people to treat me in a special way (or pay for my visits to the shrink) or for my workplace to accomodate my condition.
Lamebrainia wrote:Treating transgender people (or minorities) as victim groups does not do them any good.
Imperium Central News Network: EMERGENCY ALERT: ALL CITIZENS ARE TO PROCEED TO EVACUATION SITES IMMEDIATELY | EMERGENCY ALERT: ALL FURTHER SUBSPACE SIGNALS AND SYSTEMS ARE TO BE DISABLED IMMEDIATELY | EMERGENCY ALERT: THE FOLLOWING SYSTEMS ARE ACCESS PROHIBITED BY STANDARD/BLACKOUT [Error: Format Unrecognized] | Indomitable Bastard #283
by AaronScythe » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:40 am
by Tinfect » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:56 am
AaronScythe wrote:To Tinfect, I'm going to be real here. You linked Jordan Peterson yet are going completely opposite to his stances on political correctness leading to the shut down of debate.
Imperium Central News Network: EMERGENCY ALERT: ALL CITIZENS ARE TO PROCEED TO EVACUATION SITES IMMEDIATELY | EMERGENCY ALERT: ALL FURTHER SUBSPACE SIGNALS AND SYSTEMS ARE TO BE DISABLED IMMEDIATELY | EMERGENCY ALERT: THE FOLLOWING SYSTEMS ARE ACCESS PROHIBITED BY STANDARD/BLACKOUT [Error: Format Unrecognized] | Indomitable Bastard #283
by San Felix » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:00 pm
Tinfect wrote:OOC:
What the fuck are you talking about? Jordan Peterson is a racist, misogynistic, and frankly nazi-adjacent piece of shit, I sure as hell didn't link to him. If you're talking about West Heisen, the guy who actually did link to him, I feel that I should remind you that we are not the same person.
by Araraukar » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:03 pm
AaronScythe wrote:OOC: Now to address the Finnish model that's starting to be used in quite the silly manner.
Finland is somewhat gay friendly, but not trans, due to the STERILIZATION OF TRANSGENDER PEOPLE before they're allowed to change their legal gender. (Since 2002)
First you need a psychiatric referral from Helsinki or Tampere
Then a full year of appointments with various levels of mental health professionals.
This cuts it down to roughly 1/3 at this point to be diagnosed with transsexualism.
Next are multiple tests
including living as the new gender before HRT can even begin
Then after a year of this (2 years+ running total obligatory time) you're able to get your legal gender changed, with referral from an endocrinologist who can confirm whether or not the HRT has rendered you sterile or not.
The actual amount that undergo genital reassignment surgery in the 2nd year is roughly 50%.
If at maximum 1/6 of people actually go through with it, does that not mean that 5/6 are just deemed mentally ill?
If sterilization is required, is it progress? Or is it just veiled eugenics.
Why does the country touted as having the best schooling system in the world, believe in this many checks and dragging the process out across years?
My conclusion to all of the above is that Finland's views are that trans people shouldn't breed, because eugenics.
Olen puoliksi suomalainen.
homoystävällisyys on poliittinen askel vihaiselle Venäjälle jokaisen suomalaisen matkustajan mukaan.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by Kenmoria » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:18 pm
by Morover » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:31 pm
Kenmoria wrote:(OOC: On an incredibly minor note, the title on the forum post inside the text box is ‘hormonal therapy’, whereas the actual title is ‘hormone therapy’. It’s something I noticed a while ago and has been annoying me since then.)
by South World » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:09 pm
Separatist Peoples wrote:
"Why should the World Assembly allow itself to be swayed by a nation that is incapable of adhering to the promise that all members make upon joining: to adhere to international law duly ratified by majority vote? If you refuse to comply, why should we consider your input? You've clearly no stake in the outcome while we do."
by Kenmoria » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:53 pm
South World wrote:Separatist Peoples wrote:"Why should the World Assembly allow itself to be swayed by a nation that is incapable of adhering to the promise that all members make upon joining: to adhere to international law duly ratified by majority vote? If you refuse to comply, why should we consider your input? You've clearly no stake in the outcome while we do."
And this is why we withdrew from the WA. We wish to rule ourselves, not have laws we disagree with thrust down our throats.
by P0RTVGAL » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:46 pm
by Separatist Peoples » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:47 pm
P0RTVGAL wrote:Imagine trying to force nation states to pump citizens full of hormones to mess up their bodies, at their request, when their better judgment is clouded with what is essentially a body integrity dysphoria like mental disorder lmao
Just pass a bill forcing us to glorify every sexual deviation as a full blown lifestyle while you're at it tbh
by United Massachusetts » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:57 pm
Separatist Peoples wrote:P0RTVGAL wrote:Imagine trying to force nation states to pump citizens full of hormones to mess up their bodies, at their request, when their better judgment is clouded with what is essentially a body integrity dysphoria like mental disorder lmao
Just pass a bill forcing us to glorify every sexual deviation as a full blown lifestyle while you're at it tbh
"You say that as if sexual deviation is a bad thing."
by United Massachusetts » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:07 pm
Boaclion wrote:What a strange website. Just out of curiosity, is this a legally binding resolution? (i.e. do I have to put this into law even if I vote in negation?)
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