by Kuominwave » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:25 pm
by Neanderthaland » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:35 pm
by New Bremerton » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:39 pm
by Nakena » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:42 pm
New Bremerton wrote:China would have made the transition to democracy eventually, similar to S. Korea and Taiwan in the '80s. Its culture, traditions and institutions would have remained intact, and people would actually care about so much more than just money and power. Communism dismantled all of that from 1949-1978. Hong Kong as a Special Administrative Region of the Republic of China would be an actual democracy with actual autonomy.
by Khataiy » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:42 pm
Neanderthaland wrote:I think they really lost any chance at winning when they opened the dyke at the Yellow River.
Between this and other instances of betrayal, and rampant corruption, it was hard for the Kuomintang to keep the Chinese people on their side. Not that they necessarily loved the communists either, mind you. It's just difficult to operate a government that has lost all legitimacy in so many people's eyes.
by Homeco » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:57 am
by Stormwrath » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:27 am
Kuominwave wrote:I was reading a couple articles and documents about the Chinese Civil War, and some pointed out that the Kuomintang nationalists had several opportunities to defeat Mao's forces, one of which was in 1946, when the commies were cornered in their stronghold in Manchuria. Chiang lost that opportunity to win in part due to him agreeing to George C. Marshall's ceasefire during the Marshall Mission.
Anyways, in an alternate universe somewhere, Chiang ignores Marshall's ceasefire request, and deals a crushing blow to the communists. In this universe, I'd like to ask: what do you think would have happened had the Nationalists won the civil war? Would it be better or worse than today's China in what areas and to what extent?
by Aureumterra » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:35 am
Neanderthaland wrote:I think they really lost any chance at winning when they opened the dyke at the Yellow River.
Between this and other instances of betrayal, and rampant corruption, it was hard for the Kuomintang to keep the Chinese people on their side. Not that they necessarily loved the communists either, mind you. It's just difficult to operate a government that has lost all legitimacy in so many people's eyes.
New Bremerton wrote:China would have made the transition to democracy eventually, similar to S. Korea and Taiwan in the '80s. Its culture, traditions and institutions would have remained intact, and people would actually care about so much more than just money and power. Communism dismantled all of that from 1949-1978. Hong Kong as a Special Administrative Region of the Republic of China would be an actual democracy with actual autonomy.
by Unstoppable Empire of Doom » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:42 am
by Chan Island » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:59 am
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.
by New Bremerton » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:02 am
Aureumterra wrote:New Bremerton wrote:China would have made the transition to democracy eventually, similar to S. Korea and Taiwan in the '80s. Its culture, traditions and institutions would have remained intact, and people would actually care about so much more than just money and power. Communism dismantled all of that from 1949-1978. Hong Kong as a Special Administrative Region of the Republic of China would be an actual democracy with actual autonomy.
No, like someone else said, unlike SoKo and Taiwan, China would be a very chaotic democracy comparable to India. This is mainly driven by the vast ethnic differences between numerous people groups in the country.
by Chan Island » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:17 am
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.
by Yuyencia » Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:40 am
by Nakena » Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:46 am
Chan Island wrote:Actually heres's a curiosity= would a nationalist china have had nuclear weapons? Because I'd imagine a nuclear nationalist china bordering the Soviet Union would have caused the russians to freak out.
by The New California Republic » Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:49 am
by Nea Byzantia » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:49 am
New Bremerton wrote:China would have made the transition to democracy eventually, similar to S. Korea and Taiwan in the '80s. Its culture, traditions and institutions would have remained intact, and people would actually care about so much more than just money and power. Communism dismantled all of that from 1949-1978. Hong Kong as a Special Administrative Region of the Republic of China would be an actual democracy with actual autonomy.
by Bear Stearns » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:22 am
by Bear Stearns » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:23 am
Nea Byzantia wrote:New Bremerton wrote:China would have made the transition to democracy eventually, similar to S. Korea and Taiwan in the '80s. Its culture, traditions and institutions would have remained intact, and people would actually care about so much more than just money and power. Communism dismantled all of that from 1949-1978. Hong Kong as a Special Administrative Region of the Republic of China would be an actual democracy with actual autonomy.
That, or Hong Kong would want to join Democratic China...
by Bear Stearns » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:23 am
Chan Island wrote:Actually heres's a curiosity= would a nationalist china have had nuclear weapons? Because I'd imagine a nuclear nationalist china bordering the Soviet Union would have caused the russians to freak out.
by Nea Byzantia » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:23 am
Bear Stearns wrote:China would still be a threat, but it'd be an economic threat in the way Japan or West Germany were. It would also be a more transparent society, but still plagued by the usual Chinese problems like corruption and pollution.
I'd say it'd be better because I can't imagine the KMT doing anything like a social credit system or Soviet-style suppression of the press/internet.
by Bear Stearns » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:25 am
Nea Byzantia wrote:Bear Stearns wrote:China would still be a threat, but it'd be an economic threat in the way Japan or West Germany were. It would also be a more transparent society, but still plagued by the usual Chinese problems like corruption and pollution.
I'd say it'd be better because I can't imagine the KMT doing anything like a social credit system or Soviet-style suppression of the press/internet.
Or maybe it would go authoritarian Fascist, under Chiang Kai-Shek....
by Nea Byzantia » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:26 am
by New Bremerton » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:10 am
Bear Stearns wrote:China would still be a threat, but it'd be an economic threat in the way Japan or West Germany were. It would also be a more transparent society, but still plagued by the usual Chinese problems like corruption and pollution.
I'd say it'd be better because I can't imagine the KMT doing anything like a social credit system or Soviet-style suppression of the press/internet.
by Nova Cyberia » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:11 am
by Cynereth » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:29 am
Kuominwave wrote:I was reading a couple articles and documents about the Chinese Civil War, and some pointed out that the Kuomintang nationalists had several opportunities to defeat Mao's forces, one of which was in 1946, when the commies were cornered in their stronghold in Manchuria. Chiang lost that opportunity to win in part due to him agreeing to George C. Marshall's ceasefire during the Marshall Mission.
Anyways, in an alternate universe somewhere, Chiang ignores Marshall's ceasefire request, and deals a crushing blow to the communists. In this universe, I'd like to ask: what do you think would have happened had the Nationalists won the civil war? Would it be better or worse than today's China in what areas and to what extent?
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