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by Liriena » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:34 pm
I am: A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist An aspiring writer and journalist | Political compass stuff: Economic Left/Right: -8.13 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92 For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism, cynicism ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧ |
by The Xenopolis Confederation » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:42 pm
Bojikami wrote:The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:How so? If you can meaningfully vote, then you can change the system, albeit gradually, without revolution.
Gradual changes don't mean shit when we're facing down an ecological apocalypse. Not to mention the fact that the individuals vote really doesn't mean anything at all.
by Bojikami » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:23 pm
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Bojikami wrote:Gradual changes don't mean shit when we're facing down an ecological apocalypse. Not to mention the fact that the individuals vote really doesn't mean anything at all.
Individuals don't, but if Socialism is popular enough, and we live in a true democracy, I don't see why it wouldn't eventually be voted in.
by Grenartia » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:32 pm
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Grenartia wrote:
Sounds like ethnic bigotry to me. Why do Russians not deserve democracy and liberty? What fucking bullshit about their culture allegedly proves they're unfit to enjoy the fruits of democracy and liberty like Americans? That's the biggest fucking copout to justify tyranny that I've ever heard.
You deliberately put words into my mouth. I did not justify tyranny, nor did I say that Russians don't "deserve" liberty. Their current culture is very Authoritarian. I mean, the dictator Putin is overwhelmingly popular, and many Russians have a positive view of Joseph Stalin. Democracy probably is not going to rise from that, so don't get triggered.
by The Xenopolis Confederation » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:34 pm
by The Xenopolis Confederation » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:35 pm
Bojikami wrote:The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Individuals don't, but if Socialism is popular enough, and we live in a true democracy, I don't see why it wouldn't eventually be voted in.
Because before socialism can gain the necessary momentum to overtake the state apparatus, Fascism happens. The military will step in. Do you really think the billionaires are going to just let themselves be voted out of power?
by Grenartia » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:40 pm
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Bojikami wrote:Because before socialism can gain the necessary momentum to overtake the state apparatus, Fascism happens. The military will step in. Do you really think the billionaires are going to just let themselves be voted out of power?
How will Fascism happen? Fascism is even more unpopular than Socialism. Why would the military step in? This is first world liberal democracy, not ancient China.
by Bojikami » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:49 pm
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Bojikami wrote:Because before socialism can gain the necessary momentum to overtake the state apparatus, Fascism happens. The military will step in. Do you really think the billionaires are going to just let themselves be voted out of power?
How will Fascism happen? Fascism is even more unpopular than Socialism. Why would the military step in? This is first world liberal democracy, not ancient China.
by Pasong Tirad » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:58 pm
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Bojikami wrote:Because before socialism can gain the necessary momentum to overtake the state apparatus, Fascism happens. The military will step in. Do you really think the billionaires are going to just let themselves be voted out of power?
How will Fascism happen? Fascism is even more unpopular than Socialism. Why would the military step in? This is first world liberal democracy, not ancient China.
by Jack Thomas Lang » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:59 pm
by Grenartia » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:07 am
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:I'm skeptical that the "rich" will support fascism as we know it, even as a last-ditch attempt against violent revolution, mainly because I'm not convinced that the contemporary "rich" share similar values to conservative and reactionary industrialists that backed Mussolini, Hitler and Franco. I wish the political affiliations of the "rich" could be studied, because I think that more of them are somewhat more liberal and globalist than the business class that backed fascism in the past.
by Dumb Ideologies » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:28 am
by Jack Thomas Lang » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:48 am
Grenartia wrote:The Koch brothers, and pretty much every millionaire and billionaire that backs Trump and Putin beg to differ.
by Pasong Tirad » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:07 am
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:Grenartia wrote:The Koch brothers, and pretty much every millionaire and billionaire that backs Trump and Putin beg to differ.
Several examples out of many. That's the issue, there isn't any study of political affiliations of the "rich". We can all agree that they're against reforms and revolution that threaten their wealth and power, but I don't think that the collective "rich" are avowed conservatives who'll put the army on top as soon as a general strike starts. At least, not anymore.
by Jack Thomas Lang » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:14 am
Pasong Tirad wrote:Umberto Eco agrees: “It would be so much easier, for us, if there appeared on the world scene somebody saying, "I want to reopen Auschwitz, I want the Black Shirts to parade again in the Italian squares." Life is not that simple.” Ur-Fascism, June 22, 1995.
Not every fascist is going to look like a blackshirt. Which is why it's important for us to be knowledgeable about the identifying characteristics that more often than not are similar among a lot of fascists.
by Nakena » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:17 am
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Probably today the elites are more likely to go for a Pinochet-type free market character than a Hitler-type who'll more directly interfere with and steer their production to meet the needs of total war.
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:I don't think they'll be fascists at all, is what I'm saying. What are the identifying characteristics in the first place? For one, I don't see the contemporary "rich" supporting ultra-nationalism, expansionism (at least not in a traditional sense) and complete state control over society characteristic of fascist states.
by The Xenopolis Confederation » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:46 am
Bojikami wrote:The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:How will Fascism happen? Fascism is even more unpopular than Socialism. Why would the military step in? This is first world liberal democracy, not ancient China.
Weimar Germany was a first world liberal democracy. Italy, while a parliamentary monarchy, had the trappings of a liberal democracy. And as in these cases, when the left grew to threaten the entrenched elites, fascism was brought in to destroy the power of the working class.
Fascism of the modern day will not call itself fascism, overtly. In addition, when it comes down to it, the popularity of it doesn't mean shit to the rich. They'll readily drop the pretenses of liberal democracy as soon as it becomes nonviable for them. All the while we've been caught up in channeling our energy into incremental electoral change, they'll be polishing their guns, readying the propaganda, and getting their lists together.
by The Xenopolis Confederation » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:46 am
Grenartia wrote:Jack Thomas Lang wrote:I'm skeptical that the "rich" will support fascism as we know it, even as a last-ditch attempt against violent revolution, mainly because I'm not convinced that the contemporary "rich" share similar values to conservative and reactionary industrialists that backed Mussolini, Hitler and Franco. I wish the political affiliations of the "rich" could be studied, because I think that more of them are somewhat more liberal and globalist than the business class that backed fascism in the past.
The Koch brothers, and pretty much every millionaire and billionaire that backs Trump and Putin beg to differ.
by Pasong Tirad » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:16 am
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:Pasong Tirad wrote:Umberto Eco agrees: “It would be so much easier, for us, if there appeared on the world scene somebody saying, "I want to reopen Auschwitz, I want the Black Shirts to parade again in the Italian squares." Life is not that simple.” Ur-Fascism, June 22, 1995.
Not every fascist is going to look like a blackshirt. Which is why it's important for us to be knowledgeable about the identifying characteristics that more often than not are similar among a lot of fascists.
I don't think they'll be fascists at all, is what I'm saying. What are the identifying characteristics in the first place? For one, I don't see the contemporary "rich" supporting ultra-nationalism, expansionism (at least not in a traditional sense) and complete state control over society characteristic of fascist states.
by Nakena » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:22 am
Pasong Tirad wrote:Jack Thomas Lang wrote:I don't think they'll be fascists at all, is what I'm saying. What are the identifying characteristics in the first place? For one, I don't see the contemporary "rich" supporting ultra-nationalism, expansionism (at least not in a traditional sense) and complete state control over society characteristic of fascist states.
Ehhhh. I'm not entirely sure myself. But, if it keeps their place in the social and economic hierarchy, a country's elites are pretty likely to support whichever government can give them that guarantee. If the choices are between fascism and giving the proletariat more than the usual incremental reforms, there is no doubt what the majority of "the rich" will choose.
by Jack Thomas Lang » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:23 am
Pasong Tirad wrote:Ehhhh. I'm not entirely sure myself. But, if it keeps their place in the social and economic hierarchy, a country's elites are pretty likely to support whichever government can give them that guarantee. If the choices are between fascism and giving the proletariat more than the usual incremental reforms, there is no doubt what the majority of "the rich" will choose.
by Nakena » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:27 am
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:Pasong Tirad wrote:Ehhhh. I'm not entirely sure myself. But, if it keeps their place in the social and economic hierarchy, a country's elites are pretty likely to support whichever government can give them that guarantee. If the choices are between fascism and giving the proletariat more than the usual incremental reforms, there is no doubt what the majority of "the rich" will choose.
If we get into such a situation where it's a binary 'Revolution or Fascism', sure they'll choose fascism. But I have my doubts such a situation will arise in the West under contemporary conditions. In the conflict between socialist reformers vs moderate centre, the "rich" will back the establishment.
by Painisia » Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:30 am
-Christian DemocratFormerly, the nation of Painisia November 2017 - August 2019
-Syncretic
-Distributist
-Personalist
-Ecologism
-Popolarismo
-Corporatist
by Grenartia » Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:00 am
Nakena wrote:Pasong Tirad wrote:Ehhhh. I'm not entirely sure myself. But, if it keeps their place in the social and economic hierarchy, a country's elites are pretty likely to support whichever government can give them that guarantee. If the choices are between fascism and giving the proletariat more than the usual incremental reforms, there is no doubt what the majority of "the rich" will choose.
The tropes are is way too much interwar and weimar centric. We're not living in 1922 Italy or Germany where this may have been true. Things run differently now.
Painisia wrote:The Great Leap Forward in a nutshell:
https://youtu.be/kqCisi6HehM?t=213
Seriously, what went through the minds of the officials from the CCP when they decided to send peasants to large-scale steel factories?!
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