LWDT 7: The Earth and Heavens Tremble.

[Pasong Tirad]

I do like getting my words twisted.

Not so much twisted but rearranged to accurately portray your anti-democratic sentiment.

Nowhere did I state that elections shouldn't take place or that people shouldn't be voting.

[Bojikami]

That implies we currently live in a democracy.

You live in Russia, yes? Then you're right, "we" (you) don't live in a democracy, but the pretense of one.

I was born and lived there for sometime. I live in the United States now. There isn't all that much of a difference.

[Proctopeo]

You live in Russia, yes? Then you're right, "we" (you) don't live in a democracy, but the pretense of one.

I was born and lived there for sometime. I live in the United States now. There isn't all that much of a difference.

Well that's just plain bullshit. Almost certainly ideologically driven bullshit too.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Or you could try to participate in and improve democracy.

Revolutionary action is a direct way to improve democracy.

Very unrelibably. And once you establish a democracy, reform is almost always the better option for improving things than religion.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Democracy bad unless I win!

Yes, clearly an understanding that current liberal democratic models of society aren't going to hand over control of the means of production to the working class means "democracy bad."

I mean it does come across as "Democracy isn't as good at getting this thing I want, so we need to get this thing I want through revolution." Which is kind of petty, especially if you think that democracy is legitimate. It comes across as "the will of the people isn't as important as my political goals."

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

You live in Russia, yes? Then you're right, "we" (you) don't live in a democracy, but the pretense of one.

I was born and lived there for sometime. I live in the United States now. There isn't all that much of a difference.

From what I've heard, Russia is a fair bit less liberal and more conformist and collectivist than the United States. Would you agree with this, or do you think they're more or less the same in that regard?

[Grenartia]

This idea was said by the 1960 Democrat, the Gilded Age factory owner, the 1850’s slaveowner, The French Aristocracy in 1792…

The Gilded Age factory owners were right all along.

Eugene V. Debs did nothing wrong. Try as you might, you can't change your fucking mind. But I challenge you to attempt to do so anyways.

I prefer to beat fascists with my brains, personally.

Now you just need to acquire one.

You're right, I don't want to bruise the one I've got.

If "left unity" means selling out to the tankies like "right unity" did with right-libs to the fascists, I want no fucking part of it.

This is what we colloquially refer to as a myth.

Said the """libertarian""" who is an """ironic""" Pinochet fan.

Everyone knows left unity is when the balls touch.

But, to be serious, the reason the befabled "Left Unity" doesn't exist is because a united left will be unified in action, not in ideas.

Yet ideological differences will have to be sorted out in one way or another, eventually.

In the same way the whole US/UK vs USSR thing was sorted out after the three of them collectively kicked Nazi ass.

Everyone knows left unity is when the balls touch.

But, to be serious, the reason the befabled "Left Unity" doesn't exist is because a united left will be unified in action, not in ideas.

And once the action is over, libertarian leftists will have to work very hard to win out over the authoritarians.

All we have to do is point back to history to show where tankie methods lead.

Are you a tankie?

No. I just view this whole "libertarian v authoritarian" left debate to be useless in the context of who the real enemy of the working class is.

The reason why the enemies of the working class are our enemies, is because they exert authoritarian tyranny over us. In that sense, the American Gilded Age (and Great Depression and the current situation) and the conditions endured by the working class in pre- and post-1917 Russia and its satellite states, are functionally the same. Authoritarianism has been tried and done to death, and failed. And "right-libertarianism" is a contradiction in terms, because capitalism is inherently authoritarianism. Classical libertarianism, therefore, is the only way forward.

You live in Russia, yes? Then you're right, "we" (you) don't live in a democracy, but the pretense of one.

Russia's culture is authoritarian. Democracy and Liberty will not work there.

Sounds like ethnic bigotry to me. Why do Russians not deserve democracy and liberty? What fucking bullshit about their culture allegedly proves they're unfit to enjoy the fruits of democracy and liberty like Americans? That's the biggest fucking copout to justify tyranny that I've ever heard.

Only if you fail to prevent authoritarian dickwads from subverting the revolution for their own gain, of course. America managed to make something of a (very atrociously aristocratic (at first)) democracy through revolutionary action, while Russia went from a Tsar to a Stalin.

The Thirteen Colonies were already democratic.

Not sufficiently enough for their residents (and with valid reasons, no taxation without representation, and all that jazz). It would be a stretch to call the British empire of that time a democracy in any form, and while the early US was not very democratic, it was still an improvement over the colonial era.

[Kowani]

You live in Russia, yes? Then you're right, "we" (you) don't live in a democracy, but the pretense of one.

Russia's culture is authoritarian. Democracy and Liberty will not work there.

Imperial Japan says hi.

[Pasong Tirad]

Yes, clearly an understanding that current liberal democratic models of society aren't going to hand over control of the means of production to the working class means "democracy bad."

I mean it does come across as "Democracy isn't as good at getting this thing I want, so we need to get this thing I want through revolution." Which is kind of petty, especially if you think that democracy is legitimate. It comes across as "the will of the people isn't as important as my political goals."

No. An understanding that there's almost no chance to vote the means of production into hands of the working class is not an anti-democratic statement.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

I mean it does come across as "Democracy isn't as good at getting this thing I want, so we need to get this thing I want through revolution." Which is kind of petty, especially if you think that democracy is legitimate. It comes across as "the will of the people isn't as important as my political goals."

No. An understanding that there's almost no chance to vote the means of production into hands of the working class is not an anti-democratic statement.

If you don't believe we live in a true democracy, then you work on making it a true democracy and then see if the people vote the MoP into the hands of the proletariat.

[Pasong Tirad]

No. An understanding that there's almost no chance to vote the means of production into hands of the working class is not an anti-democratic statement.

If you don't believe we live in a true democracy, then you work on making it a true democracy and then see if the people vote the MoP into the hands of the proletariat.

"We." My statement was literally just "An election will almost never transfer the means of production into the hands of the working class." It's not loaded with any kind of anti-democratic sentiment or any kind of anti-reformist or pro-revolutionary agenda. It's literally just a statement of fact that people are overcomplicating because they think they can gotcha the leftist into admitting that he somehow secretly has dictatorial wet dreams.

[First American Empire]

I'm a monarchist and religious conservative.

What makes you think I care about left unity?

If "left unity" means selling out to the tankies like "right unity" did with right-libs to the fascists, I want no fucking part of it.

Haven't you heard? The Tankies are all selling out to us SocDems.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

If you don't believe we live in a true democracy, then you work on making it a true democracy and then see if the people vote the MoP into the hands of the proletariat.

"We." My statement was literally just "An election will almost never transfer the means of production into the hands of the working class." It's not loaded with any kind of anti-democratic sentiment or any kind of anti-reformist or pro-revolutionary agenda. It's literally just a statement of fact that people are overcomplicating because they think they can gotcha the leftist into admitting that he somehow secretly has dictatorial wet dreams.

I'm not saying you want to be a dictator, I'm saying that revolution is a bad idea if you live in a country where you can vote.

[Dumb Ideologies]

If "left unity" means selling out to the tankies like "right unity" did with right-libs to the fascists, I want no fucking part of it.

Haven't you heard? The Tankies are all selling out to us SocDems.

Yikes, I better increase the capacity of the social fascist pipeline.

[Kowani]

"We." My statement was literally just "An election will almost never transfer the means of production into the hands of the working class." It's not loaded with any kind of anti-democratic sentiment or any kind of anti-reformist or pro-revolutionary agenda. It's literally just a statement of fact that people are overcomplicating because they think they can gotcha the leftist into admitting that he somehow secretly has dictatorial wet dreams.

I'm not saying you want to be a dictator, I'm saying that revolution is a bad idea if you live in a country where you can vote.

Yeah, that doesn’t follow.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

I'm not saying you want to be a dictator, I'm saying that revolution is a bad idea if you live in a country where you can vote.

Yeah, that doesn’t follow.

How so? If you can meaningfully vote, then you can change the system, albeit gradually, without revolution.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Russia's culture is authoritarian. Democracy and Liberty will not work there.

Sounds like ethnic bigotry to me. Why do Russians not deserve democracy and liberty? What fucking bullshit about their culture allegedly proves they're unfit to enjoy the fruits of democracy and liberty like Americans? That's the biggest fucking copout to justify tyranny that I've ever heard.

You deliberately put words into my mouth. I did not justify tyranny, nor did I say that Russians don't "deserve" liberty. Their current culture is very Authoritarian. I mean, the dictator Putin is overwhelmingly popular, and many Russians have a positive view of Joseph Stalin. Democracy probably is not going to rise from that, so don't get triggered.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Sounds like ethnic bigotry to me. Why do Russians not deserve democracy and liberty? What fucking bullshit about their culture allegedly proves they're unfit to enjoy the fruits of democracy and liberty like Americans? That's the biggest fucking copout to justify tyranny that I've ever heard.

You deliberately put words into my mouth. I did not justify tyranny, nor did I say that Russians don't "deserve" liberty. Their current culture is very Authoritarian. I mean, the dictator Putin is overwhelmingly popular, and many Russians have a positive view of Joseph Stalin. Democracy probably is not going to rise from that, so don't get triggered.

This is why we need more Russian libtards like NFKRZ tbh.

[Roosevetania]

I'm a monarchist and religious conservative.

What makes you think I care about left unity?

If "left unity" means selling out to the tankies like "right unity" did with right-libs to the fascists, I want no fucking part of it.

The tankies will purge us libertarians as soon as we're not convenient to them anymore. Left unity would be very difficult.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

If "left unity" means selling out to the tankies like "right unity" did with right-libs to the fascists, I want no fucking part of it.

The tankies will purge us libertarians as soon as we're not convenient to them anymore. Left unity would be very difficult.

Tankies would purge anyone, even some of themselves.

[Kowani]

Yeah, that doesn’t follow.

How so? If you can meaningfully vote, then you can change the system, albeit gradually, without revolution.

That you can vote is no guarantee that you can actually change the system.

[The South Falls]

If "left unity" means selling out to the tankies like "right unity" did with right-libs to the fascists, I want no fucking part of it.

The tankies will purge us libertarians as soon as we're not convenient to them anymore. Left unity would be very difficult.

The left seems broader than the right when it comes to politics. Left-unity will be incredibly hard to garner between all the votes.

[Bojikami]

Yeah, that doesn’t follow.

How so? If you can meaningfully vote, then you can change the system, albeit gradually, without revolution.

Gradual changes don't mean shit when we're facing down an ecological apocalypse. Not to mention the fact that the individuals vote really doesn't mean anything at all.

[Rostavykhan]

Sounds like ethnic bigotry to me. Why do Russians not deserve democracy and liberty? What fucking bullshit about their culture allegedly proves they're unfit to enjoy the fruits of democracy and liberty like Americans? That's the biggest fucking copout to justify tyranny that I've ever heard.

You deliberately put words into my mouth. I did not justify tyranny, nor did I say that Russians don't "deserve" liberty. Their current culture is very Authoritarian. I mean, the dictator Putin is overwhelmingly popular, and many Russians have a positive view of Joseph Stalin. Democracy probably is not going to rise from that, so don't get triggered.

Yeah, I don't see how "Russians are more authoritarian" is bigoted or an argument for why they can't have Democracy ever.

I'd just assumed that one of the main reasons Russians tend to be more authoritarian and supportive of figures like Putin and Stalin is that they're generally a more collective-minded people, who tend to be more patriotic and nationalistic than Americans or other Westerners. It tends to be more "How can Russia benefit from something and become stronger" rather than "How can all peoples and groups in Russia benefit and pursue their own self-interests" generally, as I understand it.

That, and Russians tend to be fairly conservative and supportive of authority, even among the left there.

I may be mistaken, of course. I don't live in Russia; I'm interested in learning about it because I'd like to visit or live there if I ever had the chance, but at the moment I'm just trying to learn what I can about the people and their mindset.

[Rostavykhan]

I was born and lived there for sometime. I live in the United States now. There isn't all that much of a difference.

Well that's just plain bullshit. Almost certainly ideologically driven bullshit too.

I mean, they are different, just in the sense that one has a bunch of different parties, with one remaining in power in a system riddled with corruption, while the other has only two real options to vote for, remaining in power indefinitely in a system riddled with corruption and corporate lobbying.