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Christian Democrats
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Postby Christian Democrats » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:17 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
Christian Democrats wrote:Imposing artificial hormones on healthy children, who can in no real sense provide consent, is unethical.

Imposing vaccines on healthy children, who can in no real sense provide consent, is unethical.

Uh oh, check that out, now they're dead from measles.

The key difference, Ambassador, is that vaccination is not unsafe. Artificial hormones, on the other hand, increase risks for numerous health conditions, including but not limited to cancer, cardiovascular disease, sterility, obesity, gallstones, hyperkalemia, and polycythemia.

Imposing vaccines on healthy children is not unlike imposing fruits and vegetables on healthy children.
Last edited by Christian Democrats on Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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GA#160: Forced Marriages Ban Act (79%)
GA#175: Organ and Blood Donations Act (68%)^
SC#082: Repeal "Liberate Catholic" (80%)
GA#200: Foreign Marriage Recognition (54%)
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GA#285: Assisted Suicide Act (70%)
GA#310: Disabled Voters Act (81%)
GA#373: Repeal "Convention on Execution" (54%)
GA#468: Prohibit Private Prisons (57%)

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Tinfect
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Tinfect » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:39 am

Christian Democrats wrote:The key difference, Ambassador, is that vaccination is not unsafe. Artificial hormones, on the other hand, increase risks for numerous health conditions, including but not limited to cancer, cardiovascular disease, sterility, obesity, gallstones, hyperkalemia, and polycythemia.

Imposing vaccines on healthy children is not unlike imposing fruits and vegetables on healthy children.


OOC:
I know this is in-character but, you keep saying that, and I don't think you honestly understand what those words mean.

Hormones used for HRT are universally bioidentical. That means that they are literally exactly the same as what a cis person's body normally produces. The sole extant difference is the fact that they were synthesized, or there was some other process used to make them, I don't really know, how specifically they're made, and it doesn't really matter. Your body is unable to tell the difference, because there is none.

Second, those risks are either, natural in cis people who have those hormones naturally, or due primarily to method of administration; for example, I take 6 milligrams of estradiol, that's literally just brand name estrogen in case you're about to scream about artificial hormones again, in pill form. Due to that fact, not the hormone itself, I am putting extra stress on my liver. This is the same sort of risk you take with literally any medication at all, and all this nonsensical outrage over things that happen with literally any medication without any concern is nothing but transphobic misdirection.

Finally, we get to the last point about health. Mental health is a real fucking thing. If you break an arm, you get a fucking cast, if you've got severe depression, you take antidepressants. This whole argument is a complete dismissal of mental health, and it's absurd. For transpeople, the alternative to transition is often either suicide or a life of abject suffering and self-repression. I would certainly hope that you consider those bad things. The alternative that you imply, while of course carefully dodging around to give yourself the veneer of plausible deniability when called out for it like I'm doing right now, is fucking conversion therapy. Which, as we've been over, is abusive, torturous, inhuman, and horrific. Do not try to say 'psychiatric treatment' when you mean conversion therapy. Trans people often undergo psychiatric treatment, and are often required to do so, especially children. Conversion therapy, or 'birth sex affirmation' or whatever the fuck you people want to call it is not psychiatric treatment, it's child abuse.
Last edited by Tinfect on Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Land of the Ephyral
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Postby The Land of the Ephyral » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:40 am

"What with there being no evidence whatsoever for the idea of transgenderism beyond the psychological disorder known as gender dysphoria, and that there us no evidence observed suicidality rates decrease following proposed 'treatment', the SFLE feels that this proposal acts in dangerous ignorance of the condition suffered by those it purports to speak in the interest of.

"Transgender is not an identity or orientation with rights or privileges anymore than depression or schizophrenia are. The SFLE is committed to treating afflicted people so that they are not threatened by the massive suicide rate, and that they can live a normal life. We see this proposal as nothing more than a condemnation of vulnerable people to suffering and death, and wholeheartedly condemn it."
Last edited by The Land of the Ephyral on Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tinfect
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Postby Tinfect » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:46 am

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:[drivel]


OOC:
Congratulations, literally every single thing you said there is factually wrong.
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The Land of the Ephyral
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby The Land of the Ephyral » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:49 am

Tinfect wrote:
The Land of the Ephyral wrote:[drivel]


OOC:
Congratulations, literally every single thing you said there is factually wrong.


OOC: If it were you would have refuted it.

Transgender is not real.
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Tinfect
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Postby Tinfect » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:51 am

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:OOC: If it were you would have refuted it.


OOC:
I refute it on a near daily basis whenever people like you come up spouting the same lines of nonsense. Try doing some actual basic research; there's no excuse to demand that it be laid out nicely for you when countless people have already done so.

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:Transgender is not real.


Yes it is. I'm trans, I'm real, being trans is real.
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Imperium Central News Network: Aeravahn occupy 1/5 of Exterior Territories, battered Third Fleet withdrawn from combat | Dejected Intelligence Operative enrolled in children's school, claims 'punishment for disobeying orders' | Experimental agricultural fungus accidentally released in New Kol, infects plant life, HLE teams deployed to remove infected plants | Indomitable Bastard #283
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The Land of the Ephyral
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Postby The Land of the Ephyral » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:55 am

Tinfect wrote:
The Land of the Ephyral wrote:OOC: If it were you would have refuted it.


OOC:
I refute it on a near daily basis whenever people like you come up spouting the same lines of nonsense. Try doing some actual basic research; there's no excuse to demand that it be laid out nicely for you when countless people have already done so.

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:Transgender is not real.


Yes it is. I'm trans, I'm real, being trans is real.


You are whatever you were born as. Anything else is not identity but delusion. I too have debated this numerous times with people and found they lack anything substantiating beyond semantics.

But given I am taking this from a self-identified communist, I should not be expecting rationality.
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Tinfect
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Postby Tinfect » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:59 am

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:You are whatever you were born as.


OOC:
You're right! I was born female and sadly misidentified at birth! Fortunately, after 20 years I was able to fix the flawed gender marker on my birth certificate!

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:Anything else is not identity but delusion. I too have debated this numerous times with people and found they lack anything substantiating beyond semantics. But given I am taking this from a self-identified communist, I should not be expecting rationality.


Okay, enough games. If you have nothing to add but childish transphobia and attempts at character-assassination, you can go back to playing with the rest of the schoolchildren. The rest of us have genuine discussions to attend to.
Last edited by Tinfect on Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Raslin Seretis, Imperial Diplomatic Envoy, Male
Tolarn Feren, Civil Oversight Representative, Male
Jasot Rehlan, Military Oversight Representative, Female


Bisexual, Transgender (She/Her), Native-American, and Actual CommunistTM.

Imperium Central News Network: Aeravahn occupy 1/5 of Exterior Territories, battered Third Fleet withdrawn from combat | Dejected Intelligence Operative enrolled in children's school, claims 'punishment for disobeying orders' | Experimental agricultural fungus accidentally released in New Kol, infects plant life, HLE teams deployed to remove infected plants | Indomitable Bastard #283
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Bananaistan
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Postby Bananaistan » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:01 am

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:"What with there being no evidence whatsoever for the idea of transgenderism beyond the psychological disorder known as gender dysphoria, and that there us no evidence observed suicidality rates decrease following proposed 'treatment', the SFLE feels that this proposal acts in dangerous ignorance of the condition suffered by those it purports to speak in the interest of.

"Transgender is not an identity or orientation with rights or privileges anymore than depression or schizophrenia are. The SFLE is committed to treating afflicted people so that they are not threatened by the massive suicide rate, and that they can live a normal life. We see this proposal as nothing more than a condemnation of vulnerable people to suffering and death, and wholeheartedly condemn it."


"You can take your ignorance of reality (and ignorance of existing international law see GAR#91) and shove it. We don't care to listen to the nonsensical ramblings of those who fail to meet their obligations under international law."
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The Land of the Ephyral
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Postby The Land of the Ephyral » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:03 am

Bananaistan wrote:
The Land of the Ephyral wrote:"What with there being no evidence whatsoever for the idea of transgenderism beyond the psychological disorder known as gender dysphoria, and that there us no evidence observed suicidality rates decrease following proposed 'treatment', the SFLE feels that this proposal acts in dangerous ignorance of the condition suffered by those it purports to speak in the interest of.

"Transgender is not an identity or orientation with rights or privileges anymore than depression or schizophrenia are. The SFLE is committed to treating afflicted people so that they are not threatened by the massive suicide rate, and that they can live a normal life. We see this proposal as nothing more than a condemnation of vulnerable people to suffering and death, and wholeheartedly condemn it."


"You can take your ignorance of reality (and ignorance of existing international law see GAR#91) and shove it. We don't care to listen to the nonsensical ramblings of those who fail to meet their obligations under international law."


"What you argue ambassador is not reality but fantasy. Law does not dictate truth."
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The Land of the Ephyral
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Postby The Land of the Ephyral » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:04 am

Tinfect wrote:
The Land of the Ephyral wrote:You are whatever you were born as.


OOC:
You're right! I was born female and sadly misidentified at birth! Fortunately, after 20 years I was able to fix the flawed gender marker on my birth certificate!

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:Anything else is not identity but delusion. I too have debated this numerous times with people and found they lack anything substantiating beyond semantics. But given I am taking this from a self-identified communist, I should not be expecting rationality.


Okay, enough games. If you have nothing to add but childish transphobia and attempts at character-assassination, you can go back to playing with the rest of the schoolchildren. The rest of us have genuine discussions to attend to.


You are delusional. Good day.
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Araraukar
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Postby Araraukar » Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:01 am

OOC: I am trans. I have an official diagnosis of being trans. So anyone saying trans people aren't real, can take it to the RL state of Finland. (You'll be laughed at, but have fun trying.) End of story.
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Postby The New Nordic Union » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:12 am

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:
Bananaistan wrote:
"You can take your ignorance of reality (and ignorance of existing international law see GAR#91) and shove it. We don't care to listen to the nonsensical ramblings of those who fail to meet their obligations under international law."


"What you argue ambassador is not reality but fantasy. Law does not dictate truth."


'You still are in noncompliance, however. And indeed, law does not dictate truth, but neither does your opinion - insofar as one can have an opinion about facts.'
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Morover
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Postby Morover » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:50 am

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:"What with there being no evidence whatsoever for the idea of transgenderism beyond the psychological disorder known as gender dysphoria, and that there us no evidence observed suicidality rates decrease following proposed 'treatment', the SFLE feels that this proposal acts in dangerous ignorance of the condition suffered by those it purports to speak in the interest of.

"Transgender is not an identity or orientation with rights or privileges anymore than depression or schizophrenia are. The SFLE is committed to treating afflicted people so that they are not threatened by the massive suicide rate, and that they can live a normal life. We see this proposal as nothing more than a condemnation of vulnerable people to suffering and death, and wholeheartedly condemn it."

"Ambassador, with all due respect, I'm not sure I should take feedback from a delegation as ignorant as your own. Once you realize that you're speaking utter nonsense, you can come in here with some real feedback."

Kenmoria wrote:
Morover wrote:OOC: Should I just remove it, then? Personally, I think it adds something to the proposal, but I suppose the proposal could go without it.

(OOC: I think you should redefine it to a reasonable price, instead of an affordable one, so any pharmaceutical company doesn’t have to go bankrupt if hormones are in short supply.)

OOC: Yeah, I'd agree that 'reasonable' makes more sense, without necessarily compromising the clause. Thanks for the feedback.

Tinfect wrote:
Christian Democrats wrote:The key difference, Ambassador, is that vaccination is not unsafe. Artificial hormones, on the other hand, increase risks for numerous health conditions, including but not limited to cancer, cardiovascular disease, sterility, obesity, gallstones, hyperkalemia, and polycythemia.

Imposing vaccines on healthy children is not unlike imposing fruits and vegetables on healthy children.


OOC:
I know this is in-character but, you keep saying that, and I don't think you honestly understand what those words mean.

Hormones used for HRT are universally bioidentical. That means that they are literally exactly the same as what a cis person's body normally produces. The sole extant difference is the fact that they were synthesized, or there was some other process used to make them, I don't really know, how specifically they're made, and it doesn't really matter. Your body is unable to tell the difference, because there is none.

Second, those risks are either, natural in cis people who have those hormones naturally, or due primarily to method of administration; for example, I take 6 milligrams of estradiol, that's literally just brand name estrogen in case you're about to scream about artificial hormones again, in pill form. Due to that fact, not the hormone itself, I am putting extra stress on my liver. This is the same sort of risk you take with literally any medication at all, and all this nonsensical outrage over things that happen with literally any medication without any concern is nothing but transphobic misdirection.

Finally, we get to the last point about health. Mental health is a real fucking thing. If you break an arm, you get a fucking cast, if you've got severe depression, you take antidepressants. This whole argument is a complete dismissal of mental health, and it's absurd. For transpeople, the alternative to transition is often either suicide or a life of abject suffering and self-repression. I would certainly hope that you consider those bad things. The alternative that you imply, while of course carefully dodging around to give yourself the veneer of plausible deniability when called out for it like I'm doing right now, is fucking conversion therapy. Which, as we've been over, is abusive, torturous, inhuman, and horrific. Do not try to say 'psychiatric treatment' when you mean conversion therapy. Trans people often undergo psychiatric treatment, and are often required to do so, especially children. Conversion therapy, or 'birth sex affirmation' or whatever the fuck you people want to call it is not psychiatric treatment, it's child abuse.

Obviously you're more knowledgeable than I am in regards to this, so hopefully you can give me some insight: Is it inappropriate to include that, in order for an individual to use these hormones, they must understand what they do? I feel like it's the best way to get around the "argument" that hormones can be dangerous, but I'd rather not have it at all. Any additional insight into that specific clause would be ideal, if you wouldn't mind commenting.


And I believe I got through all the new comments, but if I missed something, let me know. It was a lot of wading through this transphobic nonsense, so it's completely possible.

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The Land of the Ephyral
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Postby The Land of the Ephyral » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:01 am

OOC: The denial of a thing is not a phobia.

I am not saying that there are not people who call themselves trans. But if you are 'diagnosed' then that is gender dysphoria. Transgender is merely the identity. And it is not an identity rooted in fact as neither sex nor gender are malleable per your wishes. You can call yourself whatever you want, it doesn't mean you are that thing.

And my rejection of the identitarianism of this movement based solely on the supposed reality that they will suffer if biology is adhered to does not constitute any sort of phobia, fear, or hatred. I simply do not accept you are what you claim to be because you have absolutely no evidence to support it beyond your feelings.
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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:23 am

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:OOC: The denial of a thing is not a phobia.

I am not saying that there are not people who call themselves trans. But if you are 'diagnosed' then that is gender dysphoria. Transgender is merely the identity. And it is not an identity rooted in fact as neither sex nor gender are malleable per your wishes. You can call yourself whatever you want, it doesn't mean you are that thing.

And my rejection of the identitarianism of this movement based solely on the supposed reality that they will suffer if biology is adhered to does not constitute any sort of phobia, fear, or hatred. I simply do not accept you are what you claim to be because you have absolutely no evidence to support it beyond your feelings.

OOC: Go to General if you want to debate this OOCly. Keep it IC if you want to discuss it here.

This is for everybody, not just Land of the Ephyral. I know its tricky to do this ICly only, but since this is a contentious issue, its best to err on the side of caution.
Last edited by Separatist Peoples on Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Tinfect
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Postby Tinfect » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:11 am

Morover wrote:Obviously you're more knowledgeable than I am in regards to this, so hopefully you can give me some insight: Is it inappropriate to include that, in order for an individual to use these hormones, they must understand what they do? I feel like it's the best way to get around the "argument" that hormones can be dangerous, but I'd rather not have it at all. Any additional insight into that specific clause would be ideal, if you wouldn't mind commenting.


OOC:
That's basically the informed consent standard that's used in the US; it's also basically standard medical practice to make sure a patient knows what they're taking, so, it's not necessary to include, except perhaps to mandate that be the standard that Member-States use rather than anything gatekeepery.
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Morover
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Postby Morover » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:17 am

Tinfect wrote:
Morover wrote:Obviously you're more knowledgeable than I am in regards to this, so hopefully you can give me some insight: Is it inappropriate to include that, in order for an individual to use these hormones, they must understand what they do? I feel like it's the best way to get around the "argument" that hormones can be dangerous, but I'd rather not have it at all. Any additional insight into that specific clause would be ideal, if you wouldn't mind commenting.


OOC:
That's basically the informed consent standard that's used in the US; it's also basically standard medical practice to make sure a patient knows what they're taking, so, it's not necessary to include, except perhaps to mandate that be the standard that Member-States use rather than anything gatekeepery.

OOC: Alright, thank you.

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Postby Farnhamia » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:27 am

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:
Tinfect wrote:
OOC:
I refute it on a near daily basis whenever people like you come up spouting the same lines of nonsense. Try doing some actual basic research; there's no excuse to demand that it be laid out nicely for you when countless people have already done so.



Yes it is. I'm trans, I'm real, being trans is real.


You are whatever you were born as. Anything else is not identity but delusion. I too have debated this numerous times with people and found they lack anything substantiating beyond semantics.

But given I am taking this from a self-identified communist, I should not be expecting rationality.

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Araraukar
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Postby Araraukar » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:04 am

OOC post because I don't have enough brain power to coat things into IC.

Morover wrote:Access to Hormonal Therapy

"Affordable Transgender Hormone Therapy" would be more apt and is only 39 or so marks long (current max is 52 or so).

Civil Rights | Significant

Could also easily fit into Healthcare, given that HRT is in RL a healthcare thing.

Believing that transgender people have basic rights and needs.

I know you mean well, but this is worded so that it makes me cringe. Maybe "Reaffirming that gender identity is not a valid reason for discrimination" since that's what this is all about, really. And for anyone crying "but what about gynecologist/[any other genital-based thing]", you can tell them that your proposal is not about genitals and that if they want to write a proposal about genitals, they're free to have a go at it.

Disgusted that some nations refuse to grant transgender people these rights and needs.

This, again, I get your point, but any nation that refuses to do so, is already in violation of WA law, so I suggest changing/removing this one.

Understanding that, for many transgender people, access to sex hormones is vital to one's sense of identity.

...no. Hormones =/= identity. It's the effect of the hormones on the body, changing the secondary sex characteristics, that can help narrow down the gulf between the body and the mind, and to make passing as the sex that matches your gender easier.

Further understanding that many transgender people do not use sex hormones.
Hereby,

Missing an empty line between the statement and Hereby. And also, why the statement? A better one would be "Further understanding that the decision to take hormones should always be up to the individual". Because if you put in the word "many", people who don't understand the issue are going to think that this is something aimed at a minority of a minority.

Defines, for the purposes of this resolution, transgender as an individual whose gender identity is not the same as assigned to said individual at birth.

You're mixing gender and sex there. Better worded as "-individual whose gender identity does not match the sex they were assigned at birth".

Defines, for the purposes of this resolution, sex hormones (henceforth known as "hormones") as a bodily chemical which gives specific gender or sexual characteristics to an individual.

Again mixing with the gender and sex. Maybe better as "-as a chemical naturally produced by the body, which gives the body secondary sex characteristics". For humans that works both ways; fat cells produce estrogen in all sexes, testicles produce small amounts of it as well, and ovaries and adrenal glands produce small amounts of testosterone. So as they are produced naturally anyway, you can use the "naturally produced", and anyone who doesn't know biology, can take a leap off the cliff known as Wikipedia.

Defines, for the purposes of this resolution, hormonal therapy as an intentional change in the balance of hormones, in order to more accurately represent an individual's gender or sexual identity.

As others have said, don't use sexual identity, as it has nothing to do with being trans. Also, please use normal English words; "hormone therapy" instead of "hormonal therapy". Also, that's a bad definition. It should at minimum have "using hormones to", since you define hormones above.

Requires all member-states to legalize hormonal therapy for all individuals.

"...all individuals capable of consenting to the treatment." Be very careful how you word this, by the way, because PRA lets parents decide for their kids, which makes CD's arguments on this thread null.

Requires all member-states to have an affordable, easy-to-access way for its transgender population to access hormonal medication.

I disagree with Kenmoria I think it was, about the use of "affordable", and would suggest keeping it this way rather than changing to "reasonable". Both to give some more oomph for your proposal (some spending or regulations by the nation required) as well as to not contradict existing healthcare resolutions.

Forbids any member-state from keeping hormones from a transgender person as punishment for a crime.

I'd add "or as part of a punishment" in there.

Forbids any member-state from forcing an individual to undergo hormonal therapy.

No complaints of this.

Demands that all suppliers of hormones which operate under the jurisdiction of a member-state keep their prices reasonable.

Don't. Keep "affordable" earlier, and nix this entirely. Then the nations are free to decide whether they want to pass a national law requiring low hormone prices from manufacturers, or if the state will cover the costs between affordability and what the manufacturers want for their wares.
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:45 am

Christian Democrats wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:Imposing vaccines on healthy children, who can in no real sense provide consent, is unethical.

Uh oh, check that out, now they're dead from measles.

The key difference, Ambassador, is that vaccination is not unsafe. Artificial hormones, on the other hand, increase risks for numerous health conditions, including but not limited to cancer, cardiovascular disease, sterility, obesity, gallstones, hyperkalemia, and polycythemia.

Imposing vaccines on healthy children is not unlike imposing fruits and vegetables on healthy children.

OOC: I was speaking OOC, having no context to assume your prior post was IC. I'll refer to Tinfect's far more familiar response to this matter for a personal opinion. ICly, Wallenburg is trans-exclusionary to say the least, and is very much against this and other various protections for transgender individuals.
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Morover
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Founded: Oct 14, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Morover » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:46 am

Also OOC for consistency:

Araraukar wrote:OOC post because I don't have enough brain power to coat things into IC.

Morover wrote:Access to Hormonal Therapy

"Affordable Transgender Hormone Therapy" would be more apt and is only 39 or so marks long (current max is 52 or so).

Yeah, that's a better title. I'll change it.

Civil Rights | Significant

Could also easily fit into Healthcare, given that HRT is in RL a healthcare thing.

Would you recommend me put it in healthcare? I think it fits as-is, but I did consider healthcare as a category, and would be more than willing to change it.

Believing that transgender people have basic rights and needs.

I know you mean well, but this is worded so that it makes me cringe. Maybe "Reaffirming that gender identity is not a valid reason for discrimination" since that's what this is all about, really. And for anyone crying "but what about gynecologist/[any other genital-based thing]", you can tell them that your proposal is not about genitals and that if they want to write a proposal about genitals, they're free to have a go at it.

Yeah, it is a bit strangely worded. Your clause is better written and makes more sense.

Disgusted that some nations refuse to grant transgender people these rights and needs.

This, again, I get your point, but any nation that refuses to do so, is already in violation of WA law, so I suggest changing/removing this one.

I can see where you're coming from, but I don't necessarily agree with you on it. As seen in this thread alone, many nations refuse to follow WA Law (specifically GAR#91) on transgenderism, so I'll keep it, unless the general consensus is that I should remove it. I don't think it would make the proposal illegal for contradiction, though, since it's not an operative clause.

Understanding that, for many transgender people, access to sex hormones is vital to one's sense of identity.

...no. Hormones =/= identity. It's the effect of the hormones on the body, changing the secondary sex characteristics, that can help narrow down the gulf between the body and the mind, and to make passing as the sex that matches your gender easier.

Yeah, that's worded weirdly and makes it sound different than what I'd want it to be. Honestly, I don't know how to make it sound entirely correct. I could say something along the lines of "access to sex hormones can be vital to the validation of one's identity," which seems slightly better, but not much. I'll deliberate on it a bit, but that will definitely either be changed or taken out.

Further understanding that many transgender people do not use sex hormones.
Hereby,

Missing an empty line between the statement and Hereby. And also, why the statement? A better one would be "Further understanding that the decision to take hormones should always be up to the individual". Because if you put in the word "many", people who don't understand the issue are going to think that this is something aimed at a minority of a minority.

Hm, don't know how I missed the line there. And yeah, that makes sense. I'll change that clause a bit.

Defines, for the purposes of this resolution, transgender as an individual whose gender identity is not the same as assigned to said individual at birth.

You're mixing gender and sex there. Better worded as "-individual whose gender identity does not match the sex they were assigned at birth".

I'll fix that.

Defines, for the purposes of this resolution, sex hormones (henceforth known as "hormones") as a bodily chemical which gives specific gender or sexual characteristics to an individual.

Again mixing with the gender and sex. Maybe better as "-as a chemical naturally produced by the body, which gives the body secondary sex characteristics". For humans that works both ways; fat cells produce estrogen in all sexes, testicles produce small amounts of it as well, and ovaries and adrenal glands produce small amounts of testosterone. So as they are produced naturally anyway, you can use the "naturally produced", and anyone who doesn't know biology, can take a leap off the cliff known as Wikipedia.

Yeah, that makes sense, and, frankly, didn't even occur to me. I'll fix that, as well.

Defines, for the purposes of this resolution, hormonal therapy as an intentional change in the balance of hormones, in order to more accurately represent an individual's gender or sexual identity.

As others have said, don't use sexual identity, as it has nothing to do with being trans. Also, please use normal English words; "hormone therapy" instead of "hormonal therapy". Also, that's a bad definition. It should at minimum have "using hormones to", since you define hormones above.

I thought I fixed the issue with "sexual identity," but I guess not. Apologies for that. I'll change "hormonal" to "hormone." As for the definition itself, would you say it's conceptually correct? As far as my understanding goes, that is the general, albeit vague, concept behind hormone therapy.

Requires all member-states to legalize hormonal therapy for all individuals.

"...all individuals capable of consenting to the treatment." Be very careful how you word this, by the way, because PRA lets parents decide for their kids, which makes CD's arguments on this thread null.

Yeah, I just changed that. The definition I had was fairly similar to that, but yours is still somewhat better than my original one, so I'll add that.

Requires all member-states to have an affordable, easy-to-access way for its transgender population to access hormonal medication.

I disagree with Kenmoria I think it was, about the use of "affordable", and would suggest keeping it this way rather than changing to "reasonable". Both to give some more oomph for your proposal (some spending or regulations by the nation required) as well as to not contradict existing healthcare resolutions.

Perhaps I misunderstood Kenmoria, but I believe they were referring to changing the final clause to "reasonable," the one that you advised to scrap (more on that in a second).

Forbids any member-state from keeping hormones from a transgender person as punishment for a crime.

I'd add "or as part of a punishment" in there.

I'll fix that.

Demands that all suppliers of hormones which operate under the jurisdiction of a member-state keep their prices reasonable.

Don't. Keep "affordable" earlier, and nix this entirely. Then the nations are free to decide whether they want to pass a national law requiring low hormone prices from manufacturers, or if the state will cover the costs between affordability and what the manufacturers want for their wares.

Honestly, the more I thought about it, the more I agree with you. I intended to just double down using this clause to reinforce the prior clause addressing the member-states, rather than specific suppliers, but it would make more sense to simply have assurances at the government level, as opposed to having two at the government and supplier level.

Thanks for all the feedback.
Last edited by Morover on Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Araraukar
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Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:56 am

Morover wrote:transgenderism

OOC: Will give better replies later, but ^that? Don't use that. Being transgender is not an ism any more than being cisgender is.
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

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Morover
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Posts: 335
Founded: Oct 14, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Morover » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:01 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Morover wrote:transgenderism

OOC: Will give better replies later, but ^that? Don't use that. Being transgender is not an ism any more than being cisgender is.

OOC: :oops: Apologies, still learning terms and it didn't even occur to me that it may be offensive. Thanks for letting me know, I've been using that for a while and have probably made a fool of myself somewhere.

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Araraukar
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Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:07 pm

Morover wrote:OOC: Apologies, still learning terms and it didn't even occur to me that it may be offensive. Thanks for letting me know, I've been using that for a while and have probably made a fool of myself somewhere.

OOC: It's more annoying than offensive, though it's sometimes used by people who don't want to believe that being transgender (which reminds me, something I forgot to put in the feedback, you define transgender instead of transgender individual - "transgender" is grammatically an adjective, not a noun) is a real medical thing, and so refer to it as if it was some kind of cult or political movement.
Last edited by Araraukar on Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

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