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Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVI: Making Things Right Again

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Do you consider nationalism and patriotism synoymous?

Yes- I am a nationalist and a patriot
115
26%
No- I am a nationalist and a patriot
52
12%
No- I am a nationalist, not a patriot
43
10%
No- I am a patriot, not a nationalist
147
33%
Yes- I am neither a nationalist nor a patriot
18
4%
No- I am neither a nationalist nor a patriot
68
15%
 
Total votes : 443

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Joohan
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Joohan » Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:40 am

Hanafuridake wrote:
Joohan wrote:Japan straight up banned missionaries for entering into the country ( not before executing a number of the missionaries and their converts ). They were pretty intolerant of Christians.


After the missionaries made themselves unwelcome through violating social mores, selling Japanese in the slave trade, burning down temples and shrines, and convincing daimyo to donate feudal land to the Church. Nobunaga paid little attention to the Christians and most of his ire was directed to Buddhist temples and sects which opposed him. Hideyoshi at first simply banned daimyo from handing land away or from forcing farmers of his fief to convert until moving onto harsher measures.

Really, for all of the talk by Christian missionaries about how they face persecution in other countries, they have been their own worst enemies more often than not.


Christianity will typically violate some social more in what ever culture it is first introduced. It was Portuguese merchants who bought and sold the Japanese as slaves, not the missionaries; it was actually feared that such a practice would hinder the proselytization of the missionaries, and so the King of Portugal ordered it to seize. Those temples and shrines were burned down by the command of Japanese daimyos, the Christians didn't just up an torch some pagoda's willy nilly; regardless though, as i've stated before, we've no intention of sharing a platform. And if the daimyo want's to gift over some lands to the Church, then so what? Good for him.

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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:25 pm

Joohan wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Who said anything about apathy?

Would you "save souls" by force if you could?


You did in the first question.

And you can't save a soul by force. No one can force the holy spirit in, you have to let it in.

"Live and let live" isn't apathy.

But if you could, would you?
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Hanafuridake
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Postby Hanafuridake » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:54 pm

Joohan wrote:Christianity will typically violate some social more in what ever culture it is first introduced.


Eating pork and beef in a country where it had traditionally been seen as impure was not the brightest of ideas.
Joohan wrote:It was Portuguese merchants who bought and sold the Japanese as slaves, not the missionaries; it was actually feared that such a practice would hinder the proselytization of the missionaries, and so the King of Portugal ordered it to seize.


Some of the Jesuits were opposed to slavery because they thought it harmed their cause, others started handing out permits to slaves in the 1560's for Portuguese merchants to own. Slavery did not disappear and it was one of the reasons that the missionaries were banned and the Portuguese ships were limited to where they landed.
Joohan wrote:Those temples and shrines were burned down by the command of Japanese daimyos, the Christians didn't just up an torch some pagoda's willy nilly; regardless though, as i've stated before, we've no intention of sharing a platform.


The missionaries taught that the kami and hotoke were devils and had close contact with converted daimyo's (who, like most Japanese, could not speak Portuguese and were totally reliant on them for instruction in the faith). Their involvement in the destruction of the temples and shrines were well known, seen in the expulsion edict for the missionaries.
Toyotomi Hideyoshi Expulsion of the Missionaries wrote:The [missionaries] approach people in provinces and districts to make them their followers, and let them destroy shrines and temples. This is an unheard of outrage.

Joohan wrote:And if the daimyo want's to gift over some lands to the Church, then so what? Good for him.


A major violation of the feudal contract, where a vassal receives land from his lord in exchange for his service. The land was not private property to be handed away.
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Nea Byzantia
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Founded: Jun 03, 2016
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Nea Byzantia » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:42 am

Joohan wrote:Has anyone else realized that " Islamic slavery " is this thread's new " Rome " ? If you are just randomly checking in, there is a 50% chance that this is what y'all are talking about.

I'm pretty sick of it. What do y'all think of Puerto Rican Independence?

My opinion is all or nothing. Either you are a fully fledged state, equal in duties and privileges to this union and we'll the islands problems together - or you're independent, no more of our help, you're affairs are your own.

It all started with me talking about the Ottoman oppression of Orthodox Christians in their domains, and I brought up two items:

1) the Jizyia (the religious Tax)

2) The Janissary/ Devshirme system (called the "Blood Tax" by the Christians): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devshirme

So far, everybody's discussed the Jizyia, I haven't heard anybody talked about the "Blood Tax" and the Janissaries who came out of it.

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Nea Byzantia
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Postby Nea Byzantia » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:57 am

Hanafuridake wrote:
Joohan wrote:Christianity will typically violate some social more in what ever culture it is first introduced.


Eating pork and beef in a country where it had traditionally been seen as impure was not the brightest of ideas.
Joohan wrote:It was Portuguese merchants who bought and sold the Japanese as slaves, not the missionaries; it was actually feared that such a practice would hinder the proselytization of the missionaries, and so the King of Portugal ordered it to seize.


Some of the Jesuits were opposed to slavery because they thought it harmed their cause, others started handing out permits to slaves in the 1560's for Portuguese merchants to own. Slavery did not disappear and it was one of the reasons that the missionaries were banned and the Portuguese ships were limited to where they landed.
Joohan wrote:Those temples and shrines were burned down by the command of Japanese daimyos, the Christians didn't just up an torch some pagoda's willy nilly; regardless though, as i've stated before, we've no intention of sharing a platform.


The missionaries taught that the kami and hotoke were devils and had close contact with converted daimyo's (who, like most Japanese, could not speak Portuguese and were totally reliant on them for instruction in the faith). Their involvement in the destruction of the temples and shrines were well known, seen in the expulsion edict for the missionaries.
Toyotomi Hideyoshi Expulsion of the Missionaries wrote:The [missionaries] approach people in provinces and districts to make them their followers, and let them destroy shrines and temples. This is an unheard of outrage.

Joohan wrote:And if the daimyo want's to gift over some lands to the Church, then so what? Good for him.


A major violation of the feudal contract, where a vassal receives land from his lord in exchange for his service. The land was not private property to be handed away.

It is normal for any new faith to have a disruptive effect on the land and culture it enters. The pagan Roman Empire also persecuted the Christians for a good 300 years before accepting them, and then 60 years later, enshrining Christianity as the State Religion. Admittedly, the situations we're comparing are not the same, as Christianity emerged organically from within the Roman Empire; whereas the Tokugawa Shoguns viewed Christianity as a "foreign religion", this was also the point of view which led the Sassanid Persian Shahs to persecute the Christians within their lands.

Nonetheless, however, there are thriving Christian communities in Iran to this very day, and even in Japan, the Russian Orthodox Church has a growing foothold. The pagan Caesars could not keep the Church from surviving - at first in the Catacombs - and eventually thriving. Christianity is notorious for its ability to survive even the harshest of persecutions, because unlike most other Faiths, our Founder promised us that there would be difficulty and adversity and persecution. For us, its to be expected.

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Evil Dictators Happyland
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Founded: Aug 03, 2016
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:05 am

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Hanafuridake wrote:
Eating pork and beef in a country where it had traditionally been seen as impure was not the brightest of ideas.


Some of the Jesuits were opposed to slavery because they thought it harmed their cause, others started handing out permits to slaves in the 1560's for Portuguese merchants to own. Slavery did not disappear and it was one of the reasons that the missionaries were banned and the Portuguese ships were limited to where they landed.


The missionaries taught that the kami and hotoke were devils and had close contact with converted daimyo's (who, like most Japanese, could not speak Portuguese and were totally reliant on them for instruction in the faith). Their involvement in the destruction of the temples and shrines were well known, seen in the expulsion edict for the missionaries.



A major violation of the feudal contract, where a vassal receives land from his lord in exchange for his service. The land was not private property to be handed away.

It is normal for any new faith to have a disruptive effect on the land and culture it enters. The pagan Roman Empire also persecuted the Christians for a good 300 years before accepting them, and then 60 years later, enshrining Christianity as the State Religion. Admittedly, the situations we're comparing are not the same, as Christianity emerged organically from within the Roman Empire; whereas the Tokugawa Shoguns viewed Christianity as a "foreign religion", this was also the point of view which led the Sassanid Persian Shahs to persecute the Christians within their lands.

Nonetheless, however, there are thriving Christian communities in Iran to this very day, and even in Japan, the Russian Orthodox Church has a growing foothold. The pagan Caesars could not keep the Church from surviving - at first in the Catacombs - and eventually thriving. Christianity is notorious for its ability to survive even the harshest of persecutions, because unlike most other Faiths, our Founder promised us that there would be difficulty and adversity and persecution. For us, its to be expected.

Most religions have a history of being persecuted by the dominant authority, and then persecuting others once they become that dominant authority. Jesus was also not the only religious founder to tell his followers to expect and resist adversity - Muhammad said pretty much the same thing six centuries later, though unlike Jesus he backed up his teachings with actual military resistance, and I think it goes without saying that Judaism is no stranger to facing resistance. I don't see how Christianity is particularly special in either regard.
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And to add my US$0.02: This is fucking stupid.

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Painisia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Painisia » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:14 am

So I can see that great civilizations and cultures are clashing together in a brutal war here?
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Nea Byzantia
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Nea Byzantia » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:15 am

Painisia wrote:So I can see that great civilizations and cultures are clashing together in a brutal war here?

What else is new?...That's History.

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Evil Dictators Happyland
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:17 am

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Joohan wrote:Has anyone else realized that " Islamic slavery " is this thread's new " Rome " ? If you are just randomly checking in, there is a 50% chance that this is what y'all are talking about.

I'm pretty sick of it. What do y'all think of Puerto Rican Independence?

My opinion is all or nothing. Either you are a fully fledged state, equal in duties and privileges to this union and we'll the islands problems together - or you're independent, no more of our help, you're affairs are your own.

It all started with me talking about the Ottoman oppression of Orthodox Christians in their domains, and I brought up two items:

1) the Jizyia (the religious Tax)

2) The Janissary/ Devshirme system (called the "Blood Tax" by the Christians): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devshirme

So far, everybody's discussed the Jizyia, I haven't heard anybody talked about the "Blood Tax" and the Janissaries who came out of it.

I'm pretty sure that Christians have long since lost the right to complain about how other religions treat heathens and heretics unfairly. Islamic policies for dealing with religious enemies in the medieval and renaissance eras are barbaric by modern standards, but the first thing medieval and renaissance Christians did upon taking over a country was commit mass murder against pretty much everyone who wasn't a Christian.
IC name is "The United Socialist States of America". It is best described as "North Korea if its propaganda were true", down to the presence of an immortal, quasi-divine leader.
NS stats are mostly canon. The above description was derived from them.
Factbooks are quite messy, don't use them.
Political compass: -6.38 economic, -3.64 social (social democrat), will retake every few months.
Agnostic apatheist. Faith is by no means a bad thing, it's just not for me.

Reploid Productions wrote:Two pages in... and everybody is pretty much agreeing that "This is fucking stupid!"? Dear gods, NSG agreeing on something?! I SPOTTED A UNICORN!!

And to add my US$0.02: This is fucking stupid.

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Diopolis
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Diopolis » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:32 am

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Joohan wrote:Has anyone else realized that " Islamic slavery " is this thread's new " Rome " ? If you are just randomly checking in, there is a 50% chance that this is what y'all are talking about.

I'm pretty sick of it. What do y'all think of Puerto Rican Independence?

My opinion is all or nothing. Either you are a fully fledged state, equal in duties and privileges to this union and we'll the islands problems together - or you're independent, no more of our help, you're affairs are your own.

It all started with me talking about the Ottoman oppression of Orthodox Christians in their domains, and I brought up two items:

1) the Jizyia (the religious Tax)

2) The Janissary/ Devshirme system (called the "Blood Tax" by the Christians): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devshirme

So far, everybody's discussed the Jizyia, I haven't heard anybody talked about the "Blood Tax" and the Janissaries who came out of it.

I'm no fan of Islam, but the Jizya is actually pretty fair. The janissary system, not so much.
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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:43 am

History is cyclical.

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Hanafuridake
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Postby Hanafuridake » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:33 am

Nea Byzantia wrote:It is normal for any new faith to have a disruptive effect on the land and culture it enters.


I don't seem to remember Confucianism and Buddhism causing that much trouble when they were introduced.
Nea Byzantia wrote:The pagan Roman Empire also persecuted the Christians for a good 300 years before accepting them, and then 60 years later, enshrining Christianity as the State Religion.


Christianity isn't going to become the state religion of Japan.
Nea Byzantia wrote:and even in Japan, the Russian Orthodox Church has a growing foothold. The pagan Caesars could not keep the Church from surviving - at first in the Catacombs - and eventually thriving.


30,000 members of the Orthodox Church isn't particularly impressive and you can't really play the persecution card when the reason your religion got into trouble with the shogunal authorities was partly because of sexual slavery.
Nea Byzantia wrote:Christianity is notorious for its ability to survive even the harshest of persecutions, because unlike most other Faiths, our Founder promised us that there would be difficulty and adversity and persecution. For us, its to be expected.


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Nea Byzantia
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Postby Nea Byzantia » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:40 am

Hanafuridake wrote:
30,000 members of the Orthodox Church isn't particularly impressive and you can't really play the persecution card when the reason your religion got into trouble with the shogunal authorities was partly because of sexual slavery.


Sex-Slavery? Please explain.

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Hanafuridake
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Postby Hanafuridake » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:41 am

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Hanafuridake wrote:
30,000 members of the Orthodox Church isn't particularly impressive and you can't really play the persecution card when the reason your religion got into trouble with the shogunal authorities was partly because of sexual slavery.


Sex-Slavery? Please explain.


After the Portuguese first made contact with Japan in 1543, a large scale slave trade developed in which Portuguese purchased Japanese as slaves in Japan and sold them to various locations overseas, including Portugal itself, throughout the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.[3][4] Many documents mention the large slave trade along with protests against the enslavement of Japanese. Japanese slaves are believed to be the first of their nation to end up in Europe, and the Portuguese purchased large numbers of Japanese slave girls to bring to Portugal for sexual purposes, as noted by the Church.
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Nea Byzantia
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Postby Nea Byzantia » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:42 am

Hanafuridake wrote:
Nea Byzantia wrote:
Sex-Slavery? Please explain.


After the Portuguese first made contact with Japan in 1543, a large scale slave trade developed in which Portuguese purchased Japanese as slaves in Japan and sold them to various locations overseas, including Portugal itself, throughout the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.[3][4] Many documents mention the large slave trade along with protests against the enslavement of Japanese. Japanese slaves are believed to be the first of their nation to end up in Europe, and the Portuguese purchased large numbers of Japanese slave girls to bring to Portugal for sexual purposes, as noted by the Church.

Ah, well, that's the Portuguese...I'm neither Portuguese or Catholic, so that doesn't apply to me, or my branch of the Religion...and 30,000 is a great start.

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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:46 am

Hanafuridake wrote:
Joohan wrote:Japan straight up banned missionaries for entering into the country ( not before executing a number of the missionaries and their converts ). They were pretty intolerant of Christians.


After the missionaries made themselves unwelcome through violating social mores, selling Japanese in the slave trade, burning down temples and shrines, and convincing daimyo to donate feudal land to the Church.


Ah, so what Muslim immigrants have done in Europe.
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Bienenhalde
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Postby Bienenhalde » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:47 am

Hanafuridake wrote:30,000 members of the Orthodox Church isn't particularly impressive and you can't really play the persecution card when the reason your religion got into trouble with the shogunal authorities was partly because of sexual slavery.

Even if some of the Portuguese were involved in sexual slavery, their actions were contradictory to the teachings of Christianity. And anyway didn't Shinto and Japanese Buddhism historically rather permissive regarding the practice of sexual slavery?
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Hanafuridake
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Postby Hanafuridake » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:47 am

Bear Stearns wrote:
Hanafuridake wrote:
After the missionaries made themselves unwelcome through violating social mores, selling Japanese in the slave trade, burning down temples and shrines, and convincing daimyo to donate feudal land to the Church.


Ah, so what Muslim immigrants have done in Europe.


I wasn't aware that there were European daimyo who Muslim immigrants have been convincing to give land away.
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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:48 am

Hanafuridake wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:
Ah, so what Muslim immigrants have done in Europe.


I wasn't aware that there were European daimyo who Muslim immigrants have been convincing to give land away.


The closest for that one is converting old churches into mosques and also establishing dangerous ethnic ghettos, but there are documented instances of the rest.
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Evil Dictators Happyland
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Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:49 am

Bear Stearns wrote:
Hanafuridake wrote:
After the missionaries made themselves unwelcome through violating social mores, selling Japanese in the slave trade, burning down temples and shrines, and convincing daimyo to donate feudal land to the Church.


Ah, so what Muslim immigrants have done in Europe.

Was there a point to this other than to show off how edgy you are?
IC name is "The United Socialist States of America". It is best described as "North Korea if its propaganda were true", down to the presence of an immortal, quasi-divine leader.
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Factbooks are quite messy, don't use them.
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Agnostic apatheist. Faith is by no means a bad thing, it's just not for me.

Reploid Productions wrote:Two pages in... and everybody is pretty much agreeing that "This is fucking stupid!"? Dear gods, NSG agreeing on something?! I SPOTTED A UNICORN!!

And to add my US$0.02: This is fucking stupid.

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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:50 am

Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:
Ah, so what Muslim immigrants have done in Europe.

Was there a point to this other than to show off how edgy you are?


It's not really edgy...it's been pretty exhaustively covered. Do you actually have a point or no?
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Hanafuridake
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Postby Hanafuridake » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:54 am

Bienenhalde wrote:Even if some of the Portuguese were involved in sexual slavery, their actions were contradictory to the teachings of Christianity. And anyway didn't Shinto and Japanese Buddhism historically rather permissive regarding the practice of sexual slavery?


> “Some.”
> “Large scale slave trade.”

No they didn't and how you came up with such a ridiculous idea is astounding.
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The Halseyist Faction
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Halseyist Faction » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:56 am

I came for a right wing thread.

I stayed for the discussion of the introduction of Christianity to Feudal japan and the exportation of sex slaves.

... I guess Feudalism is pretty right wing> Is that the connection here?
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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:57 am

The Halseyist Faction wrote:I came for a right wing thread.

I stayed for the discussion of the introduction of Christianity to Feudal japan and the exportation of sex slaves.

... I guess Feudalism is pretty right wing> Is that the connection here?


Right-wingers tend to be interested in history, and a lot are monarchists or pre-industrial traditionalists.
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North German Realm
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby North German Realm » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:00 am

Hanafuridake wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:
Ah, so what Muslim immigrants have done in Europe.


I wasn't aware that there were European daimyo who Muslim immigrants have been convincing to give land away.

The "selling Europeans as slaves", and "burning down churches" parts are also things I wasn't aware of.
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