Like Tarsonis said, it’s quite unusually (I’ve never seen it myself), but it does happen.
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by The Union of the West » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:41 am
by Lower Nubia » Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:51 am
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"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
Signature Updated: 15th April, 2022
by The Xenopolis Confederation » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:18 am
Northern Davincia wrote:Auristania wrote:GOP totally adore the vengeful God of Old Testament; Democrats pay lip service to the loving God of New Testament. Both factions are totally in love with the Money Lenders, so neither faction will drive the Money-lenders out of the Temple.
True. What frustrates me is the perception that God is somehow different between testaments.
by Lower Nubia » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:37 am
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Northern Davincia wrote:True. What frustrates me is the perception that God is somehow different between testaments.
He kind of was. Or at least, the actions of those who represented God were very different. In the old testament, you had a ruthless God who killed those who questioned him, and instructed a collection of tribes to wage total war and slaughter their enemies. In the new testament you have a guy (Jesus) who doesn't kill anybody. Heals the sick without hesitation, instructs people to turn the other cheek, and is grouchy but mostly peaceful sans the incident with the temple markets. It's a remarkable difference in tone.
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Anglican- Socially Centre-Right
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- Asperger
Syndrome- Graduated
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"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
Signature Updated: 15th April, 2022
by The Xenopolis Confederation » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:43 am
Lower Nubia wrote:The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:He kind of was. Or at least, the actions of those who represented God were very different. In the old testament, you had a ruthless God who killed those who questioned him, and instructed a collection of tribes to wage total war and slaughter their enemies. In the new testament you have a guy (Jesus) who doesn't kill anybody. Heals the sick without hesitation, instructs people to turn the other cheek, and is grouchy but mostly peaceful sans the incident with the temple markets. It's a remarkable difference in tone.
I wouldn’t describe it as ruthless. Ruthless implies without mercy, but plenty of time was given for the evil of the people there to flee from the land.
by Lower Nubia » Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:05 am
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Lower Nubia wrote:
I wouldn’t describe it as ruthless. Ruthless implies without mercy, but plenty of time was given for the evil of the people there to flee from the land.
I would describe it as ruthless. No chance, as far as I'm aware was given for the good people there to leave their land. Even if it was, they were living there and had every right to remain living there, so it's not reasonable to expect them to leave.
- Anglo-Catholic
Anglican- Socially Centre-Right
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- Asperger
Syndrome- Graduated
in Biochemistry
"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
Signature Updated: 15th April, 2022
by Tarsonis » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:35 am
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Lower Nubia wrote:
I wouldn’t describe it as ruthless. Ruthless implies without mercy, but plenty of time was given for the evil of the people there to flee from the land.
I would describe it as ruthless. No chance, as far as I'm aware was given for the good people there to leave their land. Even if it was, they were living there and had every right to remain living there, so it's not reasonable to expect them to leave.
by Minachia » Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:15 pm
Aeritai wrote:Happy Father's Day everyone!
by The Union of the West » Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:33 pm
by Lost Memories » Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:03 pm
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Northern Davincia wrote:True. What frustrates me is the perception that God is somehow different between testaments.
He kind of was. Or at least, the actions of those who represented God were very different. In the old testament, you had a ruthless God who killed those who questioned him, and instructed a collection of tribes to wage total war and slaughter their enemies. In the new testament you have a guy (Jesus) who doesn't kill anybody. Heals the sick without hesitation, instructs people to turn the other cheek, and is grouchy but mostly peaceful sans the incident with the temple markets. It's a remarkable difference in tone.
by Diopolis » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:37 pm
by Minachia » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:54 pm
Eternal Lotharia wrote:So, I know the trinity but for sake of interest want people to explain and discuss it.
by Lower Nubia » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:20 am
Eternal Lotharia wrote:So, I know the trinity but for sake of interest want people to explain and discuss it.
- Anglo-Catholic
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Syndrome- Graduated
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"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
Signature Updated: 15th April, 2022
by The Xenopolis Confederation » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:43 am
Tarsonis wrote:The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:I would describe it as ruthless. No chance, as far as I'm aware was given for the good people there to leave their land. Even if it was, they were living there and had every right to remain living there, so it's not reasonable to expect them to leave.
It’s one of the most difficult concepts to wrap our heads around that God is both merciful and wrathful. It should be noted that the cosmological realities during the Old Testament were different, than in the new thus the concepts of wrath and mercy were applied very differently than during the new. In the OT, several key factors are at play: 1. Heaven is closed to all people, so it doesn’t matter when and where anyone dies, everyone goes to Sheol. It might seem callous, but there is no intrinsic value to life beyond the imago dei, which God is free to override as He is the creator. 2. As a result God deals with humanity less on an individual level and more on a corporate level. Hence why entire civilizations get out to the sword rather than certain individuals. 3. Humanity is tribalistic in nature, only one tribe worships God thus God only advocates for the one Tribe. Any tribe that opposes Israel gets diced, so long as Israel remains faithful. the concept of a merciful and wrathful God are understood through this lens. Betraying the covenant invites God’s wrath, and repentance invites God’s mercy. Betray the covenant God will let Israel’s enemies run roughshod over them. Repentance returns them to God’s grace and God’s protection.
During the New Testament, however the Cosmological realities are very different:1. Heaven is open. Thus life is even more precious now because taking someone’s life can rob them of eternity, where as before that wasn’t the case.
2. The crucifixion ended the age of tribalism, instead we are all now one people with one God and one covenant, meaning the age of heavy handed wrath against nations and people’s is over. Now it’s up to the individual.
3. God’s mercy and wrath are conceived of differently now, with regards to eternal life rather than just the earthly life. God is merciful for opening heaven through Christ, and is wrathful in his punishment of sins.
God is still very much the same in the OT and the NT. But he cosmological realities are so vastly different that how His qualities are applied seem almost diametrically opposed.
by Lower Nubia » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:55 am
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Tarsonis wrote:
It’s one of the most difficult concepts to wrap our heads around that God is both merciful and wrathful. It should be noted that the cosmological realities during the Old Testament were different, than in the new thus the concepts of wrath and mercy were applied very differently than during the new. In the OT, several key factors are at play: 1. Heaven is closed to all people, so it doesn’t matter when and where anyone dies, everyone goes to Sheol. It might seem callous, but there is no intrinsic value to life beyond the imago dei, which God is free to override as He is the creator. 2. As a result God deals with humanity less on an individual level and more on a corporate level. Hence why entire civilizations get out to the sword rather than certain individuals. 3. Humanity is tribalistic in nature, only one tribe worships God thus God only advocates for the one Tribe. Any tribe that opposes Israel gets diced, so long as Israel remains faithful. the concept of a merciful and wrathful God are understood through this lens. Betraying the covenant invites God’s wrath, and repentance invites God’s mercy. Betray the covenant God will let Israel’s enemies run roughshod over them. Repentance returns them to God’s grace and God’s protection.
During the New Testament, however the Cosmological realities are very different:1. Heaven is open. Thus life is even more precious now because taking someone’s life can rob them of eternity, where as before that wasn’t the case.
2. The crucifixion ended the age of tribalism, instead we are all now one people with one God and one covenant, meaning the age of heavy handed wrath against nations and people’s is over. Now it’s up to the individual.
3. God’s mercy and wrath are conceived of differently now, with regards to eternal life rather than just the earthly life. God is merciful for opening heaven through Christ, and is wrathful in his punishment of sins.
God is still very much the same in the OT and the NT. But he cosmological realities are so vastly different that how His qualities are applied seem almost diametrically opposed.
"They're all going to hell anyway, what's so wrong with them dying?" Is not a massive consolation. And "God can override your life's value, no problem." Is just scary, not at all benevolent, and violates a certain commandment. And you keep talking about God dealing with humanity at a corporate rather than an individual level. I wouldn't buy that excuse from a fallible human, let alone a being who is supposed to be omnibenevolent.
- Anglo-Catholic
Anglican- Socially Centre-Right
- Third Way Neoliberal
- Asperger
Syndrome- Graduated
in Biochemistry
"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
Signature Updated: 15th April, 2022
by The Xenopolis Confederation » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:11 am
Lower Nubia wrote:The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:"They're all going to hell anyway, what's so wrong with them dying?" Is not a massive consolation. And "God can override your life's value, no problem." Is just scary, not at all benevolent, and violates a certain commandment. And you keep talking about God dealing with humanity at a corporate rather than an individual level. I wouldn't buy that excuse from a fallible human, let alone a being who is supposed to be omnibenevolent.
The people of the time would of seen it as quite fair, they were a corporate society, dealing in corporate justice and punishment.
What other means is God supposed to enact justice? Use a system they wilfully abandoned (turning to God), use their own system of justice against them, or use an arbitrary modern standard?
by Lower Nubia » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:17 am
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Lower Nubia wrote:
The people of the time would of seen it as quite fair, they were a corporate society, dealing in corporate justice and punishment.
What other means is God supposed to enact justice? Use a system they wilfully abandoned (turning to God), use their own system of justice against them, or use an arbitrary modern standard?
The people of the time would be wrong, at least according the the sixth commandment.
How about a standard that doesn't involve mass murder? That shouldn't be hard for an omnibenevolent God. And why wouldn't they use their own system of justice? Just because others don't recognize it shouldn't make it a bad system. I mean, in our criminal justice system, we don't treat criminals who believe in the system and criminals who don't believe in the system differently from one another.
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- Asperger
Syndrome- Graduated
in Biochemistry
"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
Signature Updated: 15th April, 2022
by The Xenopolis Confederation » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:21 am
Lower Nubia wrote:The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:The people of the time would be wrong, at least according the the sixth commandment.
How about a standard that doesn't involve mass murder? That shouldn't be hard for an omnibenevolent God. And why wouldn't they use their own system of justice? Just because others don't recognize it shouldn't make it a bad system. I mean, in our criminal justice system, we don't treat criminals who believe in the system and criminals who don't believe in the system differently from one another.
They were wrong? When was mankind judged by one man in one year of the thousands to exist? Whose standard? Their own standards allowed it. If they used any other standard, the people of that time would of seen it as un-just, without honor, so we’re back at square one. Appease today, piss off yesterday. Appease yesterday piss off today. The difference is that by appeasing yesterday in this situation the people would of been under their own system of justice, anything done to them would be just by their own standards.
So why isn’t it fair?
by Lower Nubia » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:30 am
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Lower Nubia wrote:
They were wrong? When was mankind judged by one man in one year of the thousands to exist? Whose standard? Their own standards allowed it. If they used any other standard, the people of that time would of seen it as un-just, without honor, so we’re back at square one. Appease today, piss off yesterday. Appease yesterday piss off today. The difference is that by appeasing yesterday in this situation the people would of been under their own system of justice, anything done to them would be just by their own standards.
So why isn’t it fair?
It isn't fair because God commanded against murder, adultury, theft and jealousy. Yet he commanded the Israelites to kill children, take virgin women as sex slaves, steal the land of the people they committed genocide against, and all theft (at least all theft not motivated out of survival) is motivated out of jealousy.
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- Asperger
Syndrome- Graduated
in Biochemistry
"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
Signature Updated: 15th April, 2022
by The Xenopolis Confederation » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:43 am
Lower Nubia wrote:The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:It isn't fair because God commanded against murder, adultury, theft and jealousy. Yet he commanded the Israelites to kill children, take virgin women as sex slaves, steal the land of the people they committed genocide against, and all theft (at least all theft not motivated out of survival) is motivated out of jealousy.
He did, shame they rejected that covenenat treaty. It’s the sad truth of humanity, we’re not consistent, but God was consistent in using their justice system against them. It can’t get any more just than that after they rejected the desire to repent of their evil.
However, you so far make them out to be innocent peoples, they were far from innocent, human sacrifices, human trafficking, torture of enemies, beastiality. So hated were the people that even the Egyptians and Babylonians called them vile.
Corporate society was judged in a corporate manner, under their own system of judgement.
It’s also very debatable about the sex slaves.
by Lower Nubia » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:59 am
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Lower Nubia wrote:
He did, shame they rejected that covenenat treaty. It’s the sad truth of humanity, we’re not consistent, but God was consistent in using their justice system against them. It can’t get any more just than that after they rejected the desire to repent of their evil.
However, you so far make them out to be innocent peoples, they were far from innocent, human sacrifices, human trafficking, torture of enemies, beastiality. So hated were the people that even the Egyptians and Babylonians called them vile.
Corporate society was judged in a corporate manner, under their own system of judgement.
It’s also very debatable about the sex slaves.
You don't stop believing in ethics when dealing with people who don't share them. You don't stoop to their level, if you're a fallible human. So you certainly don't stoop to far below their level if you're an omnibenevolent God. Using someone's own system against them does not make you cinsistent, it makes you petty and unprincipled.
They could be the worst people since Stalin, and it wouldn't matter because, according to God, murder, theft and adultery are wrong.
It might be debatable, but "they weren't sold into sex slavery, they were sold into normal slavery" is a rather impotent defense.
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"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
Signature Updated: 15th April, 2022
by Tarsonis » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:22 am
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Tarsonis wrote:
It’s one of the most difficult concepts to wrap our heads around that God is both merciful and wrathful. It should be noted that the cosmological realities during the Old Testament were different, than in the new thus the concepts of wrath and mercy were applied very differently than during the new. In the OT, several key factors are at play: 1. Heaven is closed to all people, so it doesn’t matter when and where anyone dies, everyone goes to Sheol. It might seem callous, but there is no intrinsic value to life beyond the imago dei, which God is free to override as He is the creator. 2. As a result God deals with humanity less on an individual level and more on a corporate level. Hence why entire civilizations get out to the sword rather than certain individuals. 3. Humanity is tribalistic in nature, only one tribe worships God thus God only advocates for the one Tribe. Any tribe that opposes Israel gets diced, so long as Israel remains faithful. the concept of a merciful and wrathful God are understood through this lens. Betraying the covenant invites God’s wrath, and repentance invites God’s mercy. Betray the covenant God will let Israel’s enemies run roughshod over them. Repentance returns them to God’s grace and God’s protection.
During the New Testament, however the Cosmological realities are very different:1. Heaven is open. Thus life is even more precious now because taking someone’s life can rob them of eternity, where as before that wasn’t the case.
2. The crucifixion ended the age of tribalism, instead we are all now one people with one God and one covenant, meaning the age of heavy handed wrath against nations and people’s is over. Now it’s up to the individual.
3. God’s mercy and wrath are conceived of differently now, with regards to eternal life rather than just the earthly life. God is merciful for opening heaven through Christ, and is wrathful in his punishment of sins.
God is still very much the same in the OT and the NT. But he cosmological realities are so vastly different that how His qualities are applied seem almost diametrically opposed.
"They're all going to hell anyway, what's so wrong with them dying?" Is not a massive consolation.
And "God can override your life's value, no problem."
I disagree. God can be omnibenevolent, and still enact wrath. Because while God is benevolent God is also Just. The best exampleIs just scary, not at all benevolent, and violates a certain commandment.
. And you keep talking about God dealing with humanity at a corporate rather than an individual level. I wouldn't buy that excuse from a fallible human, let alone a being who is supposed to be omnibenevolent.
by Lost Memories » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:01 pm
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Lower Nubia wrote:
They were wrong? When was mankind judged by one man in one year of the thousands to exist? Whose standard? Their own standards allowed it. If they used any other standard, the people of that time would of seen it as un-just, without honor, so we’re back at square one. Appease today, piss off yesterday. Appease yesterday piss off today. The difference is that by appeasing yesterday in this situation the people would of been under their own system of justice, anything done to them would be just by their own standards.
So why isn’t it fair?
It isn't fair because God commanded against murder, adultury, theft and jealousy. Yet he commanded the Israelites to kill children, take virgin women as sex slaves, steal the land of the people they committed genocide against, and all theft (at least all theft not motivated out of survival) is motivated out of jealousy.
by Lower Nubia » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:36 pm
Lost Memories wrote:The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:It isn't fair because God commanded against murder, adultury, theft and jealousy. Yet he commanded the Israelites to kill children, take virgin women as sex slaves, steal the land of the people they committed genocide against, and all theft (at least all theft not motivated out of survival) is motivated out of jealousy.
This part was already explained to you some posts before.
In the old testament, the people under god's rules weren't all humanity, but only the tribe of Israel. All the comandments, were valid only inside the tribe of Israel. As they were rules to govern the life inside the tribe. So there isn't inconsistency when war was waged on the enemies of Israel, who clearly, weren't part of Israel, so not under god's rules.
The universality of the comandments, and of being part of the peoples of god, was introduced by Jesus in the new testament.
I think the question of why in the old testament god couldn't make universal comandments from the start, instead of picking one human tribe over all the others, can be explained by looking at the relationship between god and humanity.
God. Immutable and eternal.
Humanity. Everchanging in knowledge and culture.
The Bond between God and Humanity. Developing as humanity gets more in tune with the eternal god.
Meaning over 4000 years ago, humanity as a whole wasn't developed enough, and wasn't yet at a stage of relationship with god where universal rules would have worked out.
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- Asperger
Syndrome- Graduated
in Biochemistry
"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
Signature Updated: 15th April, 2022
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