Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVI: Making Things Right Again

[Jolthig]

Nope. Prison for tax evasion.

But you just said they'd force me to pay the tax.

Because everyone has to pay taxes to governments. That's literally what forcing means, but I guess according to you, I'm advocating for you to leave your faith. Pretending that I made a Freudian slip when I have been consistent on what I said this entire time.

You are clearly incompetent to debate at this point. I will no longer discuss this topic with you.

[Novus America]

But you just said they'd force me to pay the tax.

Because everyone has to pay taxes to governments. That's literally what forcing means, but I guess according to you, I'm advocating for you to leave your faith. Pretending that I made a Freudian slip when I have been consistent on what I said this entire time.

You are clearly incompetent to debate at this point. I will no longer discuss this topic with you.

People should not pay different taxes for being a different religion though.
The law should apply equally to members of all religions.

[United Muscovite Nations]

But you just said they'd force me to pay the tax.

Because everyone has to pay taxes to governments. That's literally what forcing means, but I guess according to you, I'm advocating for you to leave your faith. Pretending that I made a Freudian slip when I have been consistent on what I said this entire time.

You are clearly incompetent to debate at this point. I will no longer discuss this topic with you.

Then don't play coy and act like forcing people to pay taxes for not being a Muslim isn't a coercive measure against non-Muslims. Don't piss on me and tell me it's raining.

[Salus Maior]

Which is what I said. He did not plan it to go the way it did, was disgusted by it yet still willing to take advantage of the aftermath.

Yeah, the issue is that he allowed it.

Honestly, even if the Pope did disallow it I don't think the end result would have been any different. The "Crusaders" and Venetians were already defying the Pope since Zara, his excommunication didn't do anything.

[Genivaria]

But you just said they'd force me to pay the tax.

Because everyone has to pay taxes to governments. That's literally what forcing means, but I guess according to you, I'm advocating for you to leave your faith. Pretending that I made a Freudian slip when I have been consistent on what I said this entire time.

You are clearly incompetent to debate at this point. I will no longer discuss this topic with you.

Then discuss the topic with me, because it seems like you're unable to actually dispute that Jizya is coercion.
There's a thing called Sin Tax which are used to discourage the use of socially unaccepted goods and services like drugs and alcohol, this is by its inherent nature coercive.
Jizya is effectively the same thing in regards to the socially unacceptable act of not being Muslim.

[Loben The 2nd]

But you just said they'd force me to pay the tax.

Because everyone has to pay taxes to governments. That's literally what forcing means, but I guess according to you, I'm advocating for you to leave your faith. Pretending that I made a Freudian slip when I have been consistent on what I said this entire time.

You are clearly incompetent to debate at this point. I will no longer discuss this topic with you.

I’d rather fucking die then pay taxes on gene basis of my faith.

[Genivaria]

Because everyone has to pay taxes to governments. That's literally what forcing means, but I guess according to you, I'm advocating for you to leave your faith. Pretending that I made a Freudian slip when I have been consistent on what I said this entire time.

You are clearly incompetent to debate at this point. I will no longer discuss this topic with you.

I’d rather fucking die then pay taxes on gene basis of my faith.

I mean c'mon we had a fucking war over taxes.

[Novus America]

Which is what I said. He did not plan it to go the way it did, was disgusted by it yet still willing to take advantage of the aftermath.

Yeah, the issue is that he allowed it.

Well he did not really allow it per se, he was in no real position to stop it.
But yes he certainly did take advantage of the aftermath and did not take lasting action against the non Venetians. He was certainly a flawed man who made mistakes.
But was an ambiguous even tragic figure, not a villain to the same degree as Enrico Dandolo and the Angelos dynasty.

[Kernen]

My position is that no Islamic state should exist, period.

Then, I am the opposite of you. Because I believe Islamic states should be established through persuasion and democracy once the majority of the populace choose to become Muslim. Preferably the Ahmadiyya community, and the closest nation that may do that is the Gambia.

Why would anybody chose to be a part of a system that taxed them on the basis of religious belief? There's no reason to tax faith unless you're trying to penalize different beliefs, which is hardly something non-Muslims would invite upon themselves.

Lets not tax any belief or lack thereof.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

No state implements the jizya today and I don't think it's been implemented by any state since it was abolished by the Ottomans in the 19th Century. Jews in Europe (at least the ones that weren't expelled) were forced to pay taxes for being Jews, so it's not like the jizya was anything extraordinary or extreme for its time.

You realize that Jolthig and Amin are saying that there should be a modern worldwide Caliphate that executes Shariah law including the Jizya, right?

Nobody's calling out the Ottomans here.

Oi, I never said anything about a worldwide Khilaafah. Also, y'all srsly need to reread what jizyah is. It's literally just a tax, just like zakah os just a tax. That's all they are: taxes.

Then, I am the opposite of you. Because I believe Islamic states should be established through persuasion and democracy once the majority of the populace choose to become Muslim. Preferably the Ahmadiyya community, and the closest nation that may do that is the Gambia.

Why would anybody chose to be a part of a system that taxed them on the basis of religious belief? There's no reason to tax faith unless you're trying to penalize different beliefs, which is hardly something non-Muslims would invite upon themselves.

Lets not tax any belief or lack thereof.

That's not how Al-Islam works here. We Muslims pay zakah, y'all non-Muslims pay jizyah. And that's it.

UMN - and to every other non-Muslim who's reading this - every nation on this planet forces their citizens to pay taxes. America literally forces its citizens to pay taxes with the threat of jail time for not doing so. The same works in an Islamic nation. It's not like converting to Al-Islam means you stop paying taxes.
Also we might be going into IDT territory.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Why would anybody chose to be a part of a system that taxed them on the basis of religious belief? There's no reason to tax faith unless you're trying to penalize different beliefs, which is hardly something non-Muslims would invite upon themselves.

Lets not tax any belief or lack thereof.

That's not how Al-Islam works here. We Muslims pay zakah, y'all non-Muslims pay jizyah. And that's it.

UMN, every nation on this planet forces their citizens to pay taxes. America literally forces its citizens to pay taxes with the threat of jail time for not doing so. The same works in an Islamic nation. It's not like converting to Al-Islam means you stop paying taxes.

The difference being America doesn't create separate forms of taxation for good citizens and those who are second class.

[Hanafuridake]

When far-rightists try to claim that the Jews created Cultural Marxism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhyamaka

We've been at this longer than they have.

[Kernen]

You realize that Jolthig and Amin are saying that there should be a modern worldwide Caliphate that executes Shariah law including the Jizya, right?

Nobody's calling out the Ottomans here.

Oi, i eneve siad anything aboit a worldwide Khilaafah. Also, y'all srsly need to reread what jizyah is. It's literally just a tax, just like zakah os just a tax. That's all they are: taxes.

Why would anybody chose to be a part of a system that taxed them on the basis of religious belief? There's no reason to tax faith unless you're trying to penalize different beliefs, which is hardly something non-Muslims would invite upon themselves.

Lets not tax any belief or lack thereof.

That's not how Al-Islam works here. We Muslims pay zakah, y'all non-Muslims pay jizyah. And that's it.

UMN - and to every other non-Muslim who's reading this - every nation on this planet forces their citizens to pay taxes. America literally forces its citizens to pay taxes with the threat of jail time for not doing so. The same works in an Islamic nation. It's not like converting to Al-Islam means you stop paying taxes.
Also we might be going into IDT territory.

Unless the taxes are identical in all but name, theres no reason to tolerate them.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Oi, i eneve siad anything aboit a worldwide Khilaafah. Also, y'all srsly need to reread what jizyah is. It's literally just a tax, just like zakah os just a tax. That's all they are: taxes.

That's not how Al-Islam works here. We Muslims pay zakah, y'all non-Muslims pay jizyah. And that's it.

UMN - and to every other non-Muslim who's reading this - every nation on this planet forces their citizens to pay taxes. America literally forces its citizens to pay taxes with the threat of jail time for not doing so. The same works in an Islamic nation. It's not like converting to Al-Islam means you stop paying taxes.
Also we might be going into IDT territory.

Unless the taxes are identical in all but name, theres no reason to tolerate them.

They pretty much are. There's no set amount on jizyah so it can be set to the same amount as zakah - 2.5% of your income (?) annually.

[Turbofolkia]

Oi, i eneve siad anything aboit a worldwide Khilaafah. Also, y'all srsly need to reread what jizyah is. It's literally just a tax, just like zakah os just a tax. That's all they are: taxes.

I forget the exact numbers but during Apartheid-era South Africa the tax-free threshold for white people was around R3000 while it was around R1000 for black people. So black people had to pay tax from a much lower threshold despite being much poorer than their white counterparts, and they received fewer rights in return. The jizya was similar in that it also perpetuated an Apartheid-like system. While the jizya was arguably relatively tolerant and progressive in medieval times (since the alternative was straight up slaughtering or expelling minority faiths which was happening elsewhere), it is certainly unacceptable now.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Oi, i eneve siad anything aboit a worldwide Khilaafah. Also, y'all srsly need to reread what jizyah is. It's literally just a tax, just like zakah os just a tax. That's all they are: taxes.

I forget the exact numbers but during Apartheid-era South Africa the tax-free threshold for white people was around R3000 while it was around R1000 for black people. So black people had to pay tax from a much lower threshold despite being much poorer than their white counterparts, and they received fewer rights in return. The jizya was similar in that it also perpetuated an Apartheid-like system. While the jizya was arguably relatively tolerant and progressive in medieval times (since the alternative was straight up slaughtering or expelling minority faiths which was happening elsewhere), it is certainly unacceptable now.

I'm not talking about how jizyah was implemented historically.

[Turbofolkia]

I forget the exact numbers but during Apartheid-era South Africa the tax-free threshold for white people was around R3000 while it was around R1000 for black people. So black people had to pay tax from a much lower threshold despite being much poorer than their white counterparts, and they received fewer rights in return. The jizya was similar in that it also perpetuated an Apartheid-like system. While the jizya was arguably relatively tolerant and progressive in medieval times (since the alternative was straight up slaughtering or expelling minority faiths which was happening elsewhere), it is certainly unacceptable now.

I'm not talking about how jizyah was implemented historically.

I mean, it's only ever been implemented historically. How different would your modern version of jizya be? Would non-Muslims get the same rights as Muslims as long as they paid up?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I'm not talking about how jizyah was implemented historically.

I mean, it's only ever been implemented historically.

Yet again not what I'm taking about. I'm talking about implementing it according to the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah, not according to history.

How different would your modern version of jizya be?

It wouldn't be a modern version of jizyah. There is no modern version of jizyah.

Would non-Muslims get the same rights as Muslims as long as they paid up?

They're supposed to regardless of whether they pay or not.

[United Muscovite Nations]

You realize that Jolthig and Amin are saying that there should be a modern worldwide Caliphate that executes Shariah law including the Jizya, right?

Nobody's calling out the Ottomans here.

Oi, I never said anything about a worldwide Khilaafah. Also, y'all srsly need to reread what jizyah is. It's literally just a tax, just like zakah os just a tax. That's all they are: taxes.

Why would anybody chose to be a part of a system that taxed them on the basis of religious belief? There's no reason to tax faith unless you're trying to penalize different beliefs, which is hardly something non-Muslims would invite upon themselves.

Lets not tax any belief or lack thereof.

That's not how Al-Islam works here. We Muslims pay zakah, y'all non-Muslims pay jizyah. And that's it.

UMN - and to every other non-Muslim who's reading this - every nation on this planet forces their citizens to pay taxes. America literally forces its citizens to pay taxes with the threat of jail time for not doing so. The same works in an Islamic nation. It's not like converting to Al-Islam means you stop paying taxes.
Also we might be going into IDT territory.

And you wonder why none of us want to live in a state founded on the satanic ideals of your warlord prophet who murdered his enemies and sold their families into slavery.

[Jolthig]

UMN and Salus have both been put on my ignore now, and perhaps another day, I'll come and discuss Jizya with those who are level-headed. But for now, I will keep away from this thread until I feel the time is right. Peace!

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

You realize that Jolthig and Amin are saying that there should be a modern worldwide Caliphate that executes Shariah law including the Jizya, right?

Nobody's calling out the Ottomans here.

Oi, I never said anything about a worldwide Khilaafah. Also, y'all srsly need to reread what jizyah is. It's literally just a tax, just like zakah os just a tax. That's all they are: taxes.

Why would anybody chose to be a part of a system that taxed them on the basis of religious belief? There's no reason to tax faith unless you're trying to penalize different beliefs, which is hardly something non-Muslims would invite upon themselves.

Lets not tax any belief or lack thereof.

That's not how Al-Islam works here. We Muslims pay zakah, y'all non-Muslims pay jizyah. And that's it.

UMN - and to every other non-Muslim who's reading this - every nation on this planet forces their citizens to pay taxes. America literally forces its citizens to pay taxes with the threat of jail time for not doing so. The same works in an Islamic nation. It's not like converting to Al-Islam means you stop paying taxes.
Also we might be going into IDT territory.

Which is more money, jizya ir zakah?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Oi, I never said anything about a worldwide Khilaafah. Also, y'all srsly need to reread what jizyah is. It's literally just a tax, just like zakah os just a tax. That's all they are: taxes.

That's not how Al-Islam works here. We Muslims pay zakah, y'all non-Muslims pay jizyah. And that's it.

UMN - and to every other non-Muslim who's reading this - every nation on this planet forces their citizens to pay taxes. America literally forces its citizens to pay taxes with the threat of jail time for not doing so. The same works in an Islamic nation. It's not like converting to Al-Islam means you stop paying taxes.
Also we might be going into IDT territory.

Which is more money, jizya ir zakah?

That depends on how high or low jizyah is set. Afaik there is no set amount for jizyah.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

UMN and Salus have both been put on my ignore now, and perhaps another day, I'll come and discuss Jizya with those who are level-headed. But for now, I will keep away from this thread until I feel the time is right. Peace!

Later today (it's 1:56 am here, I should srsly be asleep lol ) I'll update my Islam factbook to include stuff about jizyah insha-Allah.

[United Muscovite Nations]

UMN and Salus have both been put on my ignore now, and perhaps another day, I'll come and discuss Jizya with those who are level-headed. But for now, I will keep away from this thread until I feel the time is right. Peace!

I find it very strange how you can think demanding that people be financially penalized for refusing to convert to your religion is civil discourse.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Which is more money, jizya ir zakah?

That depends on how high or low jizyah is set. Afaik there is no set amount for jizyah.

But most of the time, jizya would demand more right? Otherwise there'd be no point in having two separste tax codes. That's incentivizing people to convert to Islam through the state.