Was German Reunification a Mistake?

[North German Realm]

Whether or not Poland would forcefully expel tens of millions of people after getting Kresy and thus commit ethnic cleansing is on Poland, no? Poland, as a civilized member-state of a modern order could simply not do that if they wanted to.

There's a bit of irony in mentioning being 'civilized' when your argument rests on turning people's lives upside down because Hans Owned This Land 100 Years Ago.

OR because the Poles owned that land over 70 years ago (a territory that the Polish State still has claims on, though I'm probably wrong about that)

The Roosevelt Plan should have gone through after WW2.

As long as all five states wouldn't name themselves "X State of Germany", that'd be smarter than what happened in real life tbh. That said, that map makes absolutely no fucking sense and was just built on Scramble for Africa grade shit-borders.

[Zrhajan]

The Roosevelt Plan should have gone through after WW2.

Nah, fuck that, you're not going to stick Baden in with the fucking Bavarians.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

No.

[Aclion]

Allies should have kept marching till they got to the sea of Japan.

Them and what army?

The army that nearly matched the soviets in terms of manpower, but also had the advantage of an intact industrial base and bombers with a flight ceiling above that of most soviet interceptors.

[Imperial Nalvetland]

We made a mistake after World War 2 of not reducing them to an agricultural society once it became clear that France could no longer balance them in Europe.

[National Republic of Antagoria]

Nope. Germany was extremely demilitarised after WW2 and they would be occupied immediately should they try anything fishy. Besides, a communist government would create a North and South Korea situation in Europe. Also, more people would be starvin'

[Impaled Nazarene]

Them and what army?

The army that nearly matched the soviets in terms of manpower, but also had the advantage of an intact industrial base and bombers with a flight ceiling above that of most soviet interceptors.

Or you know, ignore my argument that proves that it was impossible.
By the way Vietnam, Korea, Saxony, and England invited me to a group chat. They said it takes more than extensive bombing campaigns to make a major power surrender. Also that "intact industrial base" is going to be real helpful being separated by two massive oceans. Even with Naval superiority the delays in reinforcements and supplies would be dangerous. It also takes more than superior manpower to win a war. The Wehrmacht learned that the hard way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVo5I0xNRhg
This man has an entire series explaining how bad of an idea invading Russia is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbim2kGwhpc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYTrjxOPYNY
Or if you like your history with memes.

[The New California Republic]

Nope. Germany was extremely demilitarised after WW2 and they would be occupied immediately should they try anything fishy. Besides, a communist government would create a North and South Korea situation in Europe. Also, more people would be starvin'

Did...did you miss everything that happened in Europe after 1945 all the way to 1990?

[Zrhajan]

The army that nearly matched the soviets in terms of manpower, but also had the advantage of an intact industrial base and bombers with a flight ceiling above that of most soviet interceptors.

Or you know, ignore my argument that proves that it was impossible.
By the way Vietnam, Korea, Saxony, and England invited me to a group chat. They said it takes more than extensive bombing campaigns to make a major power surrender. Also that "intact industrial base" is going to be real helpful being separated by two massive oceans. Even with Naval superiority the delays in reinforcements and supplies would be dangerous. It also takes more than superior manpower to win a war. The Wehrmacht learned that the hard way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVo5I0xNRhg
This man has an entire series explaining how bad of an idea invading Russia is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbim2kGwhpc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYTrjxOPYNY
Or if you like your history with memes.

To add to this fun, the climate and weather patterns in the USSR are things which American and British forces would not be used to, and the muddy fall alone would play merry hell with their logistics systems.

[Impaled Nazarene]

Or you know, ignore my argument that proves that it was impossible.
By the way Vietnam, Korea, Saxony, and England invited me to a group chat. They said it takes more than extensive bombing campaigns to make a major power surrender. Also that "intact industrial base" is going to be real helpful being separated by two massive oceans. Even with Naval superiority the delays in reinforcements and supplies would be dangerous. It also takes more than superior manpower to win a war. The Wehrmacht learned that the hard way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVo5I0xNRhg
This man has an entire series explaining how bad of an idea invading Russia is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbim2kGwhpc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYTrjxOPYNY
Or if you like your history with memes.

To add to this fun, the climate and weather patterns in the USSR are things which American and British forces would not be used to, and the muddy fall alone would play merry hell with their logistics systems.

I mentioned this in my original post but thank you for adding the reminder!

[Benuty]

Thatcher and the French certainly thought so at the time of the late decline of the Soviet Union. Hell, they even wanted to try, and work something out to encourage the Germans not to integrate their "lost brethren".

[Nazis in Space]

I live in West Berlin and work in East Berlin. When I still had my bicycle, I passed Checkpoint Charlie everyday from/to work and yelled at tourists.

German reunification was not a mistake.

Though mistakes in the process were made. Like the 1:1 conversion.

But imagine, without reunification, we'd never have the BER airport.

To be fair, we'll never actually get BER, just an endless construction site.

Meaning employment for a struggling construction sector!

[National Republic of Antagoria]

Nope. Germany was extremely demilitarised after WW2 and they would be occupied immediately should they try anything fishy. Besides, a communist government would create a North and South Korea situation in Europe. Also, more people would be starvin'

Did...did you miss everything that happened in Europe after 1945 all the way to 1990?

Yes. I know of NATO and the EU. It appears I forgot to mention the political and economic reasons why Germany would not want to start a third world war after reunification. But I still take multiple treaties into account here.

[Saiwania]

Thatcher and the French certainly thought so at the time of the late decline of the Soviet Union. Hell, they even wanted to try, and work something out to encourage the Germans not to integrate their "lost brethren".

I don't think there was anything they could've done to prevent it. The Soviet Union's dissolution made it so Russia wasn't in any state to continue occupying and this was just the UK and France bemoaning some loss of leverage. It'd have arguably been more practical for Poland to try annexing East Germany, but because it was majority German- all that'd happen is that the Poles wouldn't be able to hold onto it in the long term. Germans would eventually force the Poles out if need be.

[Nakena]

I suppose it is the current dominant ideology in Germany that you adhere to?

You suppose? So the depth of your political analysis boils down to "This is a thing and thing is bad because you like it". Like, is the CDU/CSU "Merkelism"? What about the conflicts a-plenty and ideological differences in the party itself? Or the that it's ludicrous to talk about a "rampant dominant ideology" when the highest result of Merkels party in 2013 was 41.5%, never mind that e.g. the CSU pretty much always hated her?

No I could also call it left-liberal-centrism that is or rather was supposedly without alternative and without opposition, with the majority of the mainstream media supporting and defending Merkels policy and that of her supporters and adepts. Usually the defense of that stuff comes from people who think it is all good and nice. Most of current german media has, unless i missed out something, high degrees of indoctrination and moralization content, certain thoughts, tune and concepts are widespread promoted and unquestioned, to a point that theres no room left for independent or objective thinking. So it is naturally to assume that they're merkelism. And it isnt limited to the CDU but includes also the SPD, Greens and parts of other parties. They do, with the exception of Linke and AfD, form a cartel that works together and agrees broadly on most issues.

[Rosethorn Autocracy]

Most things have been said here already so l’m just gonna limit my two cents to what hasn’t really been said:

Just in general l absolutely support reunification just from a moral standpoint. Though l agree we could have gone about it MUCH better, l do not consider it a mistake at all.
And sure our brothers in the east are a bit weird sometimes, but l mean so are the Bavarians and we still keep those around

Anyway as for my actual arguments:
For one, German reunification essentially saw an influx of cheap labour that was fleeing a failing state, willing to work for less, was well educated (or as well educated as is possible in an a totalitarian dictatorship) and actual spoke German as a first language.
And while this initially probably left some west Germans unemployed, our economy has since not only recovered but grown from this.
The other argument that l haven’t seen here yet is purely a moral one, namely that our country was separated in negotiations we had no say in, and they had to build a wall to keep us apart. And now that the wall’s down and Germany’s unified some of us seem to think thi was a bad thing because a fair number of them vote for fascists and neoreactionaries.
They were a part of an actual totalitarian dictatorship less than 30 years ago and we give them shit for voting badly.
Also if we’re gonna kick people out of Germany for voting “wrong” l say we start with the Bavrians.
Honestly as if we hadn’t lost enough people already.

Nah, fuck that, you're not going to stick Baden in with the fucking Bavarians.

Oh god no.

[The New California Republic]

Nope. Germany was extremely demilitarised after WW2 and they would be occupied immediately should they try anything fishy. Besides, a communist government would create a North and South Korea situation in Europe. Also, more people would be starvin'

Did...did you miss everything that happened in Europe after 1945 all the way to 1990?

Yes. I know of NATO and the EU.

But your view of Europe clearly stops at a certain geographical point and point in time, since you seemed to forget that there basically was a North and South Korea type of situation in Europe up to 1990...

It appears I forgot to mention the political and economic reasons why Germany would not want to start a third world war after reunification.

Wh...what...? Where are you getting this from...? Is this a really awkward strawman or something...?

[The New California Republic]

For one, German reunification essentially saw an influx of cheap labour that was fleeing a failing state, willing to work for less, was well educated (or as well educated as is possible in an a totalitarian dictatorship) and actual spoke German as a first language.
And while this initially probably left some west Germans unemployed, our economy has since not only recovered but grown from this.

You seem to forget that Eastern Germany was left destitute when the industrial base was shut down by the Treuhand following reunification, which Eastern Germany still hasn't recovered from today, as many of the former industrial cities are still depopulating because of the massive unemployment that arose as a result...

The other argument that l haven’t seen here yet is purely a moral one, namely that our country was separated in negotiations we had no say in, and they had to build a wall to keep us apart.

Who is "they"? If you think that the wall was built as part of the postwar agreement then you are sorely mistaken. Please, read about the wall before you make catastrophic errors such as this one.

[Rosethorn Autocracy]

The other argument that l haven’t seen here yet is purely a moral one, namely that our country was separated in negotiations we had no say in, and they had to build a wall to keep us apart.

Who is "they"? If you think that the wall was built as part of the postwar agreement then you are sorely mistaken. Please, read about the wall before you make catastrophic errors such as this one.

“They” as in the soviet union

[Nakena]

You seem to forget that Eastern Germany was left destitute when the industrial base was shut down by the Treuhand following reunification, which Eastern Germany still hasn't recovered from today, as many of the former industrial cities are still depopulating because of the massive unemployment that arose as a result...

B-but muh free market!

Also East Germany got a lot of west-german carpetbaggery through the Treuhand and beyond.

[The New California Republic]

Who is "they"? If you think that the wall was built as part of the postwar agreement then you are sorely mistaken. Please, read about the wall before you make catastrophic errors such as this one.

“They” as in the soviet union

The USSR didn't build it...

[North German Realm]

“They” as in the soviet union

The USSR didn't build it...

Yeah, because East Germany had any form of agency of its own and wasn't just an extension of Soviet Union at that point.

[Rosethorn Autocracy]

“They” as in the soviet union

The USSR didn't build it...

Fine the German Democratic Republic (a soviet Substate) built it apologies.
It was still built by a totalitarian regime to deepen the divide between east and west Germany.

[The New California Republic]

The USSR didn't build it...

Fine the German Democratic Republic (a soviet Substate) built it apologies.
It was still built by a totalitarian regime to strengthen to deepen the divide between east and west Germany.

So basically your original point has dissolved away because your original point was targeting the winning powers for constructing the wall. Good to know.

[Petrolheadia]

For one, German reunification essentially saw an influx of cheap labour that was fleeing a failing state, willing to work for less, was well educated (or as well educated as is possible in an a totalitarian dictatorship) and actual spoke German as a first language.
And while this initially probably left some west Germans unemployed, our economy has since not only recovered but grown from this.

You seem to forget that Eastern Germany was left destitute when the industrial base was shut down by the Treuhand following reunification, which Eastern Germany still hasn't recovered from today, as many of the former industrial cities are still depopulating because of the massive unemployment that arose as a result...

It was no agreement, it was what happened in the Easten Bloc in general - companies cut off from the public budget found out that decades of mismanagement royally fucked them in the ass in terms of marketability.