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by Bombadil » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:43 am
by Walkerfort » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:47 am
Pasong Tirad wrote:Yes, and quite frankly they weren't divided enough. They should have been divided into several hundred states nominally united under one head of state elected not by the general populace but by several specially-designated electors.
This all seems familiar somehow, but I can't quite place it.
by Neu Leonstein » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:50 am
Bombadil wrote:To the OP.. how much do you agree with the New Statesman article?
by The Blaatschapen » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:55 am
District H wrote:No, not at all. But, the 2 Koreas are in a worse situation than Germany
by The New California Republic » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:22 am
Neu Leonstein wrote:The New California Republic wrote:The Treuhand being allowed to close much of East German industry following reunification was a big mistake that is still having economic repercussions today.
All sorts of dodgy shit happened there, no doubt. But the fundamental issue was that at a 1:1 exchange rate east German companies were not competitive and many barely worth the scrap value of the machinery they had. Even that scrap was sold below value in many cases, but it's more of a social justice issue than a macroeconomic one.
by Bombadil » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:24 am
Neu Leonstein wrote:Bombadil wrote:To the OP.. how much do you agree with the New Statesman article?
I saw it the first time a few years back, and have thought about it ever since. I think I've settled on it mostly being a coincidence ... there clearly is a difference between west and east (as there is between north and south, of course - though that one is less political). But to track that difference back to Prussian days seems a stretch, when the more obvious cause of the GDR is so much closer. Still - the thing I always take away is how little people like Adenauer (and actually, probably a lot of our grandparents) thought of modern Germany as one thing.
But then, I see these maps of elections in various eastern European countries, and how closely it corresponds to things like the former borders of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and while those might also just be explainable coincidences, I can't help but think that institutions can have very long-lasting and often underappreciated effects.
by Page » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:05 am
Neu Leonstein wrote:The latter is my own position. Pegging the currencies effectively pulled the rug out from under the East German economy, and was a big factor in the depression that followed and still hasn't been fully overcome. Going more slowly would also have given East Germans time to decide what sort of country they really wanted. The way it was handled, they rushed into reunification in the belief that they'd get freedom and wealth - but as their subsequent electoral choices tend to demonstrate, they've never been as open to a liberal society as those in the west are. In many ways, their preferences seem more similar to those in eastern European countries than they are to those in West Germany. It's probably too late to split things up again (at least until the EU unifies enough to allow these sorts of splits to be done easily and without causing particular disruption), but if there was a chance for a do-over, I would have given things a few years before reunification would be seriously considered.
But what say you?
by Impaled Nazarene » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:06 am
Kiaculta wrote:Oh, Kar, you silly sack of shit.
Soviet Haaregrad wrote:Bickering ist krieg.
Infected Mushroom wrote:isn't this a bit extreme?
Finland SSR wrote:"Many dictatorships are oligarchies.
Many democracies are oligarchies.
Therefore, many dictatorships are democracies."
-said no one ever. I made these words up.
Genivaria wrote:"WHY!? Why do this!? Thousands of planets and trillions of innocent lives gone! For what!?"
"It seemed like fun at the time."
by Nakena » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:08 am
Neu Leonstein wrote:I'm not in any of the countries you mention. Nor, in truth, does it matter a great deal because as you well know, one addresses the message rather than the messenger. And the message is that east Germany by itself would be a less liberal country, and arguably west Germany a more liberal country, than the unified one. So if east Germans preferred to build a little Hungary, they'd have been better off doing that as an independent nation.
by Neu Leonstein » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:41 am
Nakena wrote:Nah its good that they're part of Germany. At least one part that does resist the rampant merkelism those days. I dont always like their choices either, but someone got to fight when nobody else does. For this I commend the east germans.
by Mutz » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:57 am
by The Rich Union » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:00 am
by Neu Leonstein » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:02 am
The Rich Union wrote:i think if Germany was fully reunited they should have East Prussia back form Poland first
by North German Realm » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:06 am
The Rich Union wrote:i think if Germany was fully reunited they should have East Prussia back form Poland first
5 Nov, 2020
Die Morgenpost: "We will reconsider our relationship with Poland" Reichskanzler Lagenmauer says after Polish president protested North German ultimatum that made them restore reproductive freedom. | European Society votes not to persecute Hungary for atrocities committed against Serbs, "Giving a rogue state leave to commit genocide as it sees fit." North German delegate bemoans. | Negotiations still underway in Rome, delegates arguing over the extent of indemnities Turkey might be made to pay, lawful status of Turkish collaborators during occupation of Azerbaijan, Cyprus, Syria.
by Aclion » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:10 am
Katganistan wrote:Allowing Russia to grab East Germany in the first place was the mistake. You can't blame people who were born under the communist regime there and lived their entire lives that way to magically become prosperous and loving of democracy. It'll be generations before the damage is healed.
by Definitely Not Trumptonium » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:10 am
North German Realm wrote:The Rich Union wrote:i think if Germany was fully reunited they should have East Prussia back form Poland first
They specifically had to revoke their claims on East and West Prussia, Pomerania, Silesia, and Posen for any hope of German Reunification to take place though.Neu Leonstein wrote:It was part of the 2+4 Treaty that Germany's eastern border was finally and officially set at the Oder River, and everyone's cool with that.
Honestly, nobody should have been. Not because of muh "lost territory" or shit like that, but because it gave legitimacy to the Soviet and Russian theft of Polish Land (the very thing that lost Germany Silesia and Pomerania in the first place).
by Neu Leonstein » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:15 am
Definitely Not Trumptonium wrote:Ukraine and Belarus were independent states before German reunification, what you're proposing is annexing internationally recognised sovereign nations to give a favour to Germany.
by North German Realm » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:16 am
Except not. West and East Germany reunified in 1989-90 (3 October 1990). Ukraine and Belarus existed only as part of the Soviet Union, without any authority as a sovereign state outside of it (like the modern Republics of the Russian Federation). They became sovereign nations in August 1991, and their statehood internationally recognized -at some points- later into 1992-3. At the point the 4+2 negotiations were going on, Ukraine and Belarus existed only as members of the Soviet Union, and under jurisdiction thereof. Their "internationally recognized statehood" was like that of the Republic of Dagestan. None at all. Whether or not Pomerania and (EDITED: Lower) Silesia should have been returned to Germany isn't my point, it's that Kresy should have been returned to Poland first, before any form of negotiation over German unification could start (as Germany still had claims on lands held by Poland, which it did not rescind until after the agreement).Definitely Not Trumptonium wrote:North German Realm wrote:They specifically had to revoke their claims on East and West Prussia, Pomerania, Silesia, and Posen for any hope of German Reunification to take place though.
Honestly, nobody should have been. Not because of muh "lost territory" or shit like that, but because it gave legitimacy to the Soviet and Russian theft of Polish Land (the very thing that lost Germany Silesia and Pomerania in the first place).
Ukraine and Belarus were independent states before German reunification, what you're proposing is annexing internationally recognised sovereign nations to give a favour to Germany.
5 Nov, 2020
Die Morgenpost: "We will reconsider our relationship with Poland" Reichskanzler Lagenmauer says after Polish president protested North German ultimatum that made them restore reproductive freedom. | European Society votes not to persecute Hungary for atrocities committed against Serbs, "Giving a rogue state leave to commit genocide as it sees fit." North German delegate bemoans. | Negotiations still underway in Rome, delegates arguing over the extent of indemnities Turkey might be made to pay, lawful status of Turkish collaborators during occupation of Azerbaijan, Cyprus, Syria.
by Definitely Not Trumptonium » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:19 am
North German Realm wrote:Except not. West and East Germany reunified in 1989-90 (3 October 1990). Ukraine and Belarus existed only as part of the Soviet Union, without any authority as a sovereign state outside of it (like the modern Republics of the Russian Federation). They became sovereign nations in August 1991, and their statehood internationally recognized -at some points- later into 1992-3. At the point the 4+2 negotiations were going on, Ukraine and Belarus existed only as members of the Soviet Union, and under jurisdiction thereof. Their "internationally recognized statehood" was like that of the Republic of Dagestan. None at all. Whether or not Pomerania and Silesia should have been returned to Germany isn't my point, it's that Kresy should have been returned to Poland first, before any form of negotiation over German unification could start (as Germany still had claims on lands held by Poland, which it did not rescind until after the agreement).Definitely Not Trumptonium wrote:
Ukraine and Belarus were independent states before German reunification, what you're proposing is annexing internationally recognised sovereign nations to give a favour to Germany.
by North German Realm » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:20 am
Definitely Not Trumptonium wrote:North German Realm wrote:Except not. West and East Germany reunified in 1989-90 (3 October 1990). Ukraine and Belarus existed only as part of the Soviet Union, without any authority as a sovereign state outside of it (like the modern Republics of the Russian Federation). They became sovereign nations in August 1991, and their statehood internationally recognized -at some points- later into 1992-3. At the point the 4+2 negotiations were going on, Ukraine and Belarus existed only as members of the Soviet Union, and under jurisdiction thereof. Their "internationally recognized statehood" was like that of the Republic of Dagestan. None at all. Whether or not Pomerania and Silesia should have been returned to Germany isn't my point, it's that Kresy should have been returned to Poland first, before any form of negotiation over German unification could start (as Germany still had claims on lands held by Poland, which it did not rescind until after the agreement).
The joy of forceful expulsion of tens of millions of people once again 50 years later.
5 Nov, 2020
Die Morgenpost: "We will reconsider our relationship with Poland" Reichskanzler Lagenmauer says after Polish president protested North German ultimatum that made them restore reproductive freedom. | European Society votes not to persecute Hungary for atrocities committed against Serbs, "Giving a rogue state leave to commit genocide as it sees fit." North German delegate bemoans. | Negotiations still underway in Rome, delegates arguing over the extent of indemnities Turkey might be made to pay, lawful status of Turkish collaborators during occupation of Azerbaijan, Cyprus, Syria.
by Nationalist Teksas » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:22 am
August 21, 2019: To the surprise of absolutely nobody, the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic has declared war on Ukraine. General Secretary Zyuganov has been reported as joking to guests in his dacha "As long as we give the Poles and Romanians Lwow and Bessarabia, they'll leave us alone."
by Definitely Not Trumptonium » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:22 am
North German Realm wrote:Definitely Not Trumptonium wrote:
The joy of forceful expulsion of tens of millions of people once again 50 years later.
Whether or not Poland would forcefully expel tens of millions of people after getting Kresy and thus commit ethnic cleansing is on Poland, no? Poland, as a civilized member-state of a modern order could simply not do that if they wanted to.
by Impaled Nazarene » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:23 am
Aclion wrote:Katganistan wrote:Allowing Russia to grab East Germany in the first place was the mistake. You can't blame people who were born under the communist regime there and lived their entire lives that way to magically become prosperous and loving of democracy. It'll be generations before the damage is healed.
Allies should have kept marching till they got to the sea of Japan.
Kiaculta wrote:Oh, Kar, you silly sack of shit.
Soviet Haaregrad wrote:Bickering ist krieg.
Infected Mushroom wrote:isn't this a bit extreme?
Finland SSR wrote:"Many dictatorships are oligarchies.
Many democracies are oligarchies.
Therefore, many dictatorships are democracies."
-said no one ever. I made these words up.
Genivaria wrote:"WHY!? Why do this!? Thousands of planets and trillions of innocent lives gone! For what!?"
"It seemed like fun at the time."
by Neu Leonstein » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:27 am
North German Realm wrote:Whether or not Poland would forcefully expel tens of millions of people after getting Kresy and thus commit ethnic cleansing is on Poland, no? Poland, as a civilized member-state of a modern order could simply not do that if they wanted to.
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