by Neu Leonstein » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:53 am
by Great Mojave » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:03 am
by Nakena » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:06 am
by Neu Leonstein » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:14 am
Nakena wrote:I find it very questionable that they are now being blamed for their voting preferences. Much like west europeans like to attack other east europeans over the matter. For many years people have been worked to bring the divided continent together again, it is very arrogant by how their opinions, views and legitimate concerns are being dismissed as evil and backwards.
by East Angria » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:18 am
Neu Leonstein wrote:And so West Germany found itself with a bit more than 16 million new arrivals. Poorer, used to and expecting generous welfare, with little to no appreciation for democratic values but a huge sense of entitlement. Which, if modern day critics of Angela Merkel are to be believed, is a recipe for disaster.
Since then, West Germany has spent literal trillions on supporting infrastructure and business investment in the east, and who knows how much more in welfare payments. Geopolitically, many might argue that the unified Germany is too big for Europe - meaning that the EU doesn't work as well for having one country in it that holds a disproportionate share of the economic activity and population.
So... was reunification a mistake?
Neu Leonstein wrote:Blaming someone for their voting preferences is an extremely ok thing to do though. I mean, who else is responsible for one's voting other than oneself? So the judging part is fine - question is just whether you (or they) agree with my judgement. Which is largely a question of whether or not you share my politics.
Neu Leonstein wrote:So that's the general point. In this specific circumstance, when I look at PDS, NPD or AfD votes in the east, the comparison that comes to mind is the classic Eurabia meme that part of the internet loves to trot out: a whole bunch of people who aren't terribly into liberal and open societies voting for various forms of Sharia law. Like, if you didn't want to be part of this society, why move there in the first place?
by Neu Leonstein » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:28 am
East Angria wrote:How exactly did the East Germans have a "huge sense of entitlement"?
by -Ocelot- » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:43 am
by The Blaatschapen » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:50 am
by Neu Leonstein » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:51 am
-Ocelot- wrote:You speak of West Germany as if it's the only real Germany and was forced to absorb some foreign poor land. Why should Germany split in half arbitrarily post USSR collapse? And why shouldn't the German state help poorer Germans? It's not like West Germany forcefully absorbed Swaziland or something.
[...]
Why did Adenauer dislike the eastern Germans, think Berlin was expendable and consider the River Elbe to be the natural frontier? Simple: he knew that the Elbe was Germany’s Mason-Dixon line. Beyond it lay the flat, grim Prussian heartlands, which until 1945 stretched into present-day Russia. This vast region was known to Germans as “Ostelbien” – East Elbia. Adenauer viewed the “unification” of Germany in 1871 as East Elbia’s annexation of the west. That’s why in 1919, as mayor of Cologne, and again in 1923, he tried to get Britain and France to back a breakaway western German state. Having failed, he is said to have muttered, “Here we go, Asia again,” and closed the blinds every time his train crossed east over the Elbe.
Prussia was a different country. The victorious Allies agreed. On 25 February 1947, they declared: “The Prussian state, which from early days has been a bearer of militarism and reaction in Germany… together with its central government and all its agencies are abolished.” The name Prussia was eradicated. The Prussian hegemony of 1871-1945, an anomaly in the two millennia of German history, was over.
[...]
by The Blaatschapen » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:55 am
Neu Leonstein wrote:-Ocelot- wrote:You speak of West Germany as if it's the only real Germany and was forced to absorb some foreign poor land. Why should Germany split in half arbitrarily post USSR collapse? And why shouldn't the German state help poorer Germans? It's not like West Germany forcefully absorbed Swaziland or something.
I suppose one could ask a question about what Germany constitutes the real thing. I mean, there are at least two candidates, if you're talking political entities and philosophies. One is the 1848 Frankfurt parliament, and all that stood for... which, to be fair, is where the Federal Republic took a lot of its inspiration. The other was the authoritarian, agrarian Prussia. The latter ended up taking political control once the Frankfurt parliament was violently ended, with known results. One way to read the break-up of the German Empire in 1945 would be as the freeing of liberal Germany from autocratic rule.
https://www.newstatesman.com/world/euro ... ns-germany[...]
Why did Adenauer dislike the eastern Germans, think Berlin was expendable and consider the River Elbe to be the natural frontier? Simple: he knew that the Elbe was Germany’s Mason-Dixon line. Beyond it lay the flat, grim Prussian heartlands, which until 1945 stretched into present-day Russia. This vast region was known to Germans as “Ostelbien” – East Elbia. Adenauer viewed the “unification” of Germany in 1871 as East Elbia’s annexation of the west. That’s why in 1919, as mayor of Cologne, and again in 1923, he tried to get Britain and France to back a breakaway western German state. Having failed, he is said to have muttered, “Here we go, Asia again,” and closed the blinds every time his train crossed east over the Elbe.
Prussia was a different country. The victorious Allies agreed. On 25 February 1947, they declared: “The Prussian state, which from early days has been a bearer of militarism and reaction in Germany… together with its central government and all its agencies are abolished.” The name Prussia was eradicated. The Prussian hegemony of 1871-1945, an anomaly in the two millennia of German history, was over.
[...]
by Neu Leonstein » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:57 am
The Blaatschapen wrote:And, if the Elbe is supposed to be a border. Keep in mind the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_ann ... Schut_Plan . An enemy from the West
by The Blaatschapen » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:58 am
Neu Leonstein wrote:The Blaatschapen wrote:And, if the Elbe is supposed to be a border. Keep in mind the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_ann ... Schut_Plan . An enemy from the West
Imagine the 1974 football team tho.
by Zrhajan » Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:05 am
The Blaatschapen wrote:I live in West Berlin and work in East Berlin. When I still had my bicycle, I passed Checkpoint Charlie everyday from/to work and yelled at tourists.
German reunification was not a mistake.
Though mistakes in the process were made. Like the 1:1 conversion.
But imagine, without reunification, we'd never have the BER airport.
by Walkerfort » Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:13 am
by Katganistan » Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:38 am
by Nakena » Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:40 am
Neu Leonstein wrote:So that's the general point. In this specific circumstance, when I look at PDS, NPD or AfD votes in the east, the comparison that comes to mind is the classic Eurabia meme that part of the internet loves to trot out: a whole bunch of people who aren't terribly into liberal and open societies voting for various forms of Sharia law. Like, if you didn't want to be part of this society, why move there in the first place?
by The New California Republic » Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:58 am
by Blue Embassy » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:11 am
Neu Leonstein wrote:And so West Germany found itself with a bit more than 16 million new arrivals. Poorer, used to and expecting generous welfare, with little to no appreciation for democratic values but a huge sense of entitlement.
by Bombadil » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:31 am
Neu Leonstein wrote:Simple enough question that I thought might be fun to discuss. To get this going, I'm going to go with a bit of a controversial language... but the underlying questions are real ones.
by Hammer Britannia » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:34 am
by North German Realm » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:34 am
-Ocelot- wrote:You speak of West Germany as if it's the only real Germany and was forced to absorb some foreign poor land. Why should Germany split in half arbitrarily post USSR collapse? And why shouldn't the German state help poorer Germans? It's not like West Germany forcefully absorbed Swaziland or something.
5 Nov, 2020
Die Morgenpost: "We will reconsider our relationship with Poland" Reichskanzler Lagenmauer says after Polish president protested North German ultimatum that made them restore reproductive freedom. | European Society votes not to persecute Hungary for atrocities committed against Serbs, "Giving a rogue state leave to commit genocide as it sees fit." North German delegate bemoans. | Negotiations still underway in Rome, delegates arguing over the extent of indemnities Turkey might be made to pay, lawful status of Turkish collaborators during occupation of Azerbaijan, Cyprus, Syria.
by Neu Leonstein » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:39 am
Nakena wrote:So you want to get rid of east germany because they aren't liberal enough for your tastes? Maybe you may want to go into another country then that suits more your tastes. Oh wait, arent you in the UK already?
Well they gone brexiting so, mhm, maybe that leaves Sweden or Canada under glorious Trudeau.
The New California Republic wrote:The Treuhand being allowed to close much of East German industry following reunification was a big mistake that is still having economic repercussions today.
Blue Embassy wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by "expecting generous welfare" - is it because West Germany had it and they were expecting it since they were joining? Or they were supposedly used to generous welfare because they were living in a "socialist state"?
I will wait with my answer until then, I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.
by Pasong Tirad » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:40 am
by District H » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:41 am
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