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ICE putting LGBT and disabled immigrants in solitary...

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Nova Cyberia
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Postby Nova Cyberia » Sun May 26, 2019 1:15 pm

Liriena wrote:
The Republic of Fore wrote:Oh no, a government agency is actually doing It's job for once. The horror! We're under no obligation to take any immigrants period.

Actually, you are obligated if they are elligible for asylum.

Not until they step foot on American soil.
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Sun May 26, 2019 1:18 pm

Israeli Commonwealth wrote:
Vassenor wrote:So we're agreed that ICE needs to be torn down and replaced with an organisation not staffed with assholes?

No. ICE has done nothing wrong. What needs to be fixed is how immigrants are admitted to the United States. Meaning, if you do not meet the requirements you are forcibly put back in mexico. Anyone who does not comply is killed on sight

You've been warned twice now, and you lost your previous nation for similar behavior. That earns you a *** 7 day ban for trolling. *** You are welcome to express your opinion here but that must be done in a civil manner. "Anyone who does not comply is killed on sight" is not the civil expression of an opinion in opposition to undocumented immigrants.

And remember, bans apply to you, the player. If you use a puppet to post, you will lose that nation and this one.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sun May 26, 2019 1:20 pm

Novus America wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Yeah, the head of the executive branch. He tells the Department of Homeland Security what to do, and DHS tells ICE, and ICE does it.

Yup.


The current state of affairs is Trump policy. Saying that doesn't mean that I think he invented the concept of detaining illegal immigrants. But the way it's being done now is on him.


He's the one in charge. The buck, as they say, stops with him.



Man, you can't imagine how fucked up that shit sounds. Do you know how many times I've been asked to show ID in the streets or on a bus? Once. When I was being detained by the police, entirely justly, for some very suspicious behaviour.


Yes Trump is ultimately responsible. But he did not create the policies and laws, and did not change them that much.

See, now you're just agreeing with me that Trump is responsible but quibbling about how much he changed the policies, as if that matters.

Plus if it exists to ethnically cleanse Mexicans it is clearly not doing a very good job at it.

I don't think that that's the current objective. But maybe have a think about how confident you are that if Trump got his way in the morning, he got his wall and his Muslim ban and anything else he could imagine, that he would stop there, and he'd be fine with all the legal immigrants currently in the US.

Trump said something bad about Mexicans =/= all government policies exist for that purpose.

But the fact that Trump himself clearly thinks of his policies as anti-Mexican is going to inform how the various agencies that he is in charge of as President conduct themselves.

I get asked to show my ID all the time.
Requiring ID on public transportation and public roads is fine.
To use them you have to follow certain legal requirements.

That is some totalitarian dystopia sounding shit. I wasn't even asked for ID when I voted on Friday.
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Sun May 26, 2019 1:22 pm

Novus America wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Yeah, the head of the executive branch. He tells the Department of Homeland Security what to do, and DHS tells ICE, and ICE does it.

Yup.


The current state of affairs is Trump policy. Saying that doesn't mean that I think he invented the concept of detaining illegal immigrants. But the way it's being done now is on him.


He's the one in charge. The buck, as they say, stops with him.



Man, you can't imagine how fucked up that shit sounds. Do you know how many times I've been asked to show ID in the streets or on a bus? Once. When I was being detained by the police, entirely justly, for some very suspicious behaviour.


Yes Trump is ultimately responsible. But he did not create the policies and laws, and did not change them that much.
I guess the entire National Guard now also exists purely to attack Mexicans according to you?

You cannot say Trump created the purpose for a policy that began long before he was in office.
Being responsible for implementing a policy and creating the reason for it are not necessarily the same. The way it is being done now was not started by him, so he did not create the purpose.

Plus if it exists to ethnically cleanse Mexicans it is clearly not doing a very good job at it.

Trump said something bad about Mexicans =/= all government policies exist for that purpose.

I get asked to show my ID all the time.
Requiring ID on public transportation and public roads is fine.
To use them you have to follow certain legal requirements.
You also have a reduced expectation of privacy when doing so.

And I guess you never flew on a plane then.


So clearly that makes it fine for ERO officers to board random busses and go full on "Papers, please".
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Highever
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Postby Highever » Sun May 26, 2019 1:23 pm

Israeli Commonwealth wrote:
Highever wrote:Better armed in the sense of providing them with LTL equipment that is suited to containing incidents with unarmed groups of people? Yes, I don't see why not. Better armed in the sense of giving them arsenals of lethal weaponry when such things are entirely unnecessary 99.9% of the time? No.

Ok so we agree then.

Not on the putting people on a line and slaughtering them part, nor the naive sentiment that ICE and other border agencies have done absolutely nothing wrong, no.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Sun May 26, 2019 1:29 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Yes Trump is ultimately responsible. But he did not create the policies and laws, and did not change them that much.

See, now you're just agreeing with me that Trump is responsible but quibbling about how much he changed the policies, as if that matters.

Plus if it exists to ethnically cleanse Mexicans it is clearly not doing a very good job at it.

I don't think that that's the current objective. But maybe have a think about how confident you are that if Trump got his way in the morning, he got his wall and his Muslim ban and anything else he could imagine, that he would stop there, and he'd be fine with all the legal immigrants currently in the US.

Trump said something bad about Mexicans =/= all government policies exist for that purpose.

But the fact that Trump himself clearly thinks of his policies as anti-Mexican is going to inform how the various agencies that he is in charge of as President conduct themselves.

I get asked to show my ID all the time.
Requiring ID on public transportation and public roads is fine.
To use them you have to follow certain legal requirements.

That is some totalitarian dystopia sounding shit. I wasn't even asked for ID when I voted on Friday.


See you are still conflating being responsible for a policy and creating the purpose.
He does think he upsets some Mexicans.
That does not mean policies that started before him exist for that purpose.

You claim is still garbage. It still comes down to “Trump said something bad about Mexicans ergo government policies exist just to oppress Mexicans”.
Trump has other motivations too you know, and again his motives and the motives of laws from over 100 years ago are not the same.

And no, showing ID to use public transportation is not dystopian.
I guess you never flew a plane either then.
Last edited by Novus America on Sun May 26, 2019 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Sun May 26, 2019 1:33 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Yes Trump is ultimately responsible. But he did not create the policies and laws, and did not change them that much.
I guess the entire National Guard now also exists purely to attack Mexicans according to you?

You cannot say Trump created the purpose for a policy that began long before he was in office.
Being responsible for implementing a policy and creating the reason for it are not necessarily the same. The way it is being done now was not started by him, so he did not create the purpose.

Plus if it exists to ethnically cleanse Mexicans it is clearly not doing a very good job at it.

Trump said something bad about Mexicans =/= all government policies exist for that purpose.

I get asked to show my ID all the time.
Requiring ID on public transportation and public roads is fine.
To use them you have to follow certain legal requirements.
You also have a reduced expectation of privacy when doing so.

And I guess you never flew on a plane then.


So clearly that makes it fine for ERO officers to board random busses and go full on "Papers, please".


ERO is not all of ICE. It is not even the biggest component.
And yes, you do not own the bus, nor the road, and have a reduced expectation of privacy.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Nova Cyberia
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Founded: May 06, 2019
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Postby Nova Cyberia » Sun May 26, 2019 1:35 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Yes Trump is ultimately responsible. But he did not create the policies and laws, and did not change them that much.
I guess the entire National Guard now also exists purely to attack Mexicans according to you?

You cannot say Trump created the purpose for a policy that began long before he was in office.
Being responsible for implementing a policy and creating the reason for it are not necessarily the same. The way it is being done now was not started by him, so he did not create the purpose.

Plus if it exists to ethnically cleanse Mexicans it is clearly not doing a very good job at it.

Trump said something bad about Mexicans =/= all government policies exist for that purpose.

I get asked to show my ID all the time.
Requiring ID on public transportation and public roads is fine.
To use them you have to follow certain legal requirements.
You also have a reduced expectation of privacy when doing so.

And I guess you never flew on a plane then.


So clearly that makes it fine for ERO officers to board random busses and go full on "Papers, please".

A public bus? Yes.
Yes, yes, I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sun May 26, 2019 1:44 pm

Novus America wrote:
Ifreann wrote:See, now you're just agreeing with me that Trump is responsible but quibbling about how much he changed the policies, as if that matters.


I don't think that that's the current objective. But maybe have a think about how confident you are that if Trump got his way in the morning, he got his wall and his Muslim ban and anything else he could imagine, that he would stop there, and he'd be fine with all the legal immigrants currently in the US.


But the fact that Trump himself clearly thinks of his policies as anti-Mexican is going to inform how the various agencies that he is in charge of as President conduct themselves.


That is some totalitarian dystopia sounding shit. I wasn't even asked for ID when I voted on Friday.


See you are still conflating being responsible for a policy and creating the purpose.

Well, yeah. Trump enacted these policies with goals in mind. I mean, I don't credit the man with much intelligence, but I don't think he's acting randomly.
He does think he upsets some Mexicans.
That does not mean policies that started before him exist for that purpose.

We're talking about Trump's policies. They didn't start before him.

You claim is still garbage. It still comes down to “Trump said something bad about Mexicans ergo government policies exist just to oppress Mexicans”.
Trump has other motivations too you know, and again his motives and the motives of laws from over 100 years ago are not the same.

I'm not saying that Trump's policies exist to oppress Mexicans. I'm saying that even Trump himself thinks that his policies are anti-Mexican. This idea that he's just neutrally enforcing the law is bollocks that even he doesn't believe.

And no, showing ID to use public transportation is not dystopian.

Sure sounds it. When I use public transportation I just have to pay, not identify myself and prove my citizenship.
I guess you never flew a plane either then.

I've had to show my passport when travelling internationally. I've never had to show it to get a bus or a train or a taxi or the Luas.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Sun May 26, 2019 1:44 pm

Highever wrote:
Israeli Commonwealth wrote:Ok so we agree then.

Not on the putting people on a line and slaughtering them part, nor the naive sentiment that ICE and other border agencies have done absolutely nothing wrong, no.


Yes, there is a middle ground and between “Abolish ICE” and “ICE did nothing wrong”.
Clearly ICE ERO’s Office of Detention Oversight has had some serious failures and needs reform.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sun May 26, 2019 1:47 pm

Nova Cyberia wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
So clearly that makes it fine for ERO officers to board random busses and go full on "Papers, please".

A public bus? Yes.

I'll reiterate, I didn't even have to show my ID when I voted on Friday. And it's the law here that I could have been required to do so. The idea of having to prove your citizenship just to get a bus is mad to me.
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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Sun May 26, 2019 1:48 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:A public bus? Yes.

I'll reiterate, I didn't even have to show my ID when I voted on Friday. And it's the law here that I could have been required to do so. The idea of having to prove your citizenship just to get a bus is mad to me.


We're just not used to American levels of freedom.

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Nova Cyberia
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Postby Nova Cyberia » Sun May 26, 2019 1:49 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:A public bus? Yes.

I'll reiterate, I didn't even have to show my ID when I voted on Friday. And it's the law here that I could have been required to do so. The idea of having to prove your citizenship just to get a bus is mad to me.

I don't think it should be a requirement just to get on the bus. You're misunderstanding me. I just don't see anything wrong with ICE officers performing random citizenship checks on public buses.
Yes, yes, I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it.
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Sun May 26, 2019 1:50 pm

Nova Cyberia wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
So clearly that makes it fine for ERO officers to board random busses and go full on "Papers, please".

A public bus? Yes.


Talk about sleepwalking into authoritarianism.
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Nova Cyberia
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Postby Nova Cyberia » Sun May 26, 2019 1:51 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:A public bus? Yes.


Talk about sleepwalking into authoritarianism.

Ah yes, truly there is no greater authoritarianism than asking people on public buses if they're citizens or not.
Yes, yes, I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Sun May 26, 2019 1:51 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Novus America wrote:
See you are still conflating being responsible for a policy and creating the purpose.

Well, yeah. Trump enacted these policies with goals in mind. I mean, I don't credit the man with much intelligence, but I don't think he's acting randomly.
He does think he upsets some Mexicans.
That does not mean policies that started before him exist for that purpose.

We're talking about Trump's policies. They didn't start before him.

You claim is still garbage. It still comes down to “Trump said something bad about Mexicans ergo government policies exist just to oppress Mexicans”.
Trump has other motivations too you know, and again his motives and the motives of laws from over 100 years ago are not the same.

I'm not saying that Trump's policies exist to oppress Mexicans. I'm saying that even Trump himself thinks that his policies are anti-Mexican. This idea that he's just neutrally enforcing the law is bollocks that even he doesn't believe.

And no, showing ID to use public transportation is not dystopian.

Sure sounds it. When I use public transportation I just have to pay, not identify myself and prove my citizenship.
I guess you never flew a plane either then.

I've had to show my passport when travelling internationally. I've never had to show it to get a bus or a train or a taxi or the Luas.


Not all government policies are Trump policies.
Again these started before him, and he did not change them much.
Detention of illegal immigrants is not Trump’s policy.
Is enforcement perfectly neutral? Of course not.
Nothing truly is.
That does not mean illegal immigration detention is concentration camps for Mexicans.

Yeah, well maybe you do not.
Everything different from Ireland is not dystopian.
Even on domestic flights you have to show ID though, I guarantee that.

And yes we might have stricter transportation security laws.
That does not equal dystopian. Anyways if the US is dystopian why to so many people want to come here and you want even more to do so?
Last edited by Novus America on Sun May 26, 2019 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Sun May 26, 2019 1:54 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:A public bus? Yes.

I'll reiterate, I didn't even have to show my ID when I voted on Friday. And it's the law here that I could have been required to do so. The idea of having to prove your citizenship just to get a bus is mad to me.


And I had to show mine when I voted.
The US is not Ireland.

You might think transportation security is mad, we do not.
I disagree that transportation security is mad. You have a reduced expectation of privacy in public transportation and on public roads.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Sun May 26, 2019 1:54 pm

Like seriously. Even with how authoritarian people claim the UK is (#gotalicenseforthathashtag) the police can't ask you to prove your citizenship at random like that.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Sun May 26, 2019 1:55 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:A public bus? Yes.


Talk about sleepwalking into authoritarianism.


No. Having to show identification when using public transportation on public roads is not particularly authoritarian.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Postby Luna Amore » Sun May 26, 2019 1:56 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:A public bus? Yes.


Talk about sleepwalking into authoritarianism.

You and Iferann have the lowest bar for the most boring dystopian future I've ever seen.
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Postby Twilight Imperium » Sun May 26, 2019 1:56 pm

Nova Cyberia wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Talk about sleepwalking into authoritarianism.

Ah yes, truly there is no greater authoritarianism than asking people on public buses if they're citizens or not.


I mean, constantly having to prove your citizenship or else get arrested is pretty authoritarian yeah. What's next, ID checks at the post office? The supermarket? :eyebrow:

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Nova Cyberia
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Postby Nova Cyberia » Sun May 26, 2019 1:56 pm

Vassenor wrote:Like seriously. Even with how authoritarian people claim the UK is (#gotalicenseforthathashtag) the police can't ask you to prove your citizenship at random like that.

ICE officers are different from police officers, m8.
Yes, yes, I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it.
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Nova Cyberia
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Postby Nova Cyberia » Sun May 26, 2019 1:57 pm

Twilight Imperium wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:Ah yes, truly there is no greater authoritarianism than asking people on public buses if they're citizens or not.


I mean, constantly having to prove your citizenship or else get arrested is pretty authoritarian yeah. What's next, ID checks at the post office? The supermarket? :eyebrow:

Random checks are constant? Now that's funny.
Yes, yes, I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it.
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Nova Cyberia
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Postby Nova Cyberia » Sun May 26, 2019 1:58 pm

Luna Amore wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Talk about sleepwalking into authoritarianism.

You and Iferann have the lowest bar for the most boring dystopian future I've ever seen.

"Evening, sir. Are you an American citizen?"

MY GOD, THE AUTHORITARIANISM! WE'RE ONLY ONE STEP AWAY FROM 1984!
Yes, yes, I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Sun May 26, 2019 1:59 pm

Twilight Imperium wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:Ah yes, truly there is no greater authoritarianism than asking people on public buses if they're citizens or not.


I mean, constantly having to prove your citizenship or else get arrested is pretty authoritarian yeah. What's next, ID checks at the post office? The supermarket? :eyebrow:


Most government buildings do have ID checks. And you sometimes do have to show ID at the Post Office.

But public transportation is different than a supermarket.
You have a reduced expectation of privacy using public transportation on public roads.

Many have cameras too. Though so do supermarkets.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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