LWDT 7: The Earth and Heavens Tremble.

[Ostroeuropa]

The entire debate is dumb and hinges on some pretty dodgy morality on the part of those criticizing loli.

Firstly you've got the fact that it's fictional and nobody is being harmed.
Secondly you've got the fact that, as has already been noted, often the character is not a child.

And a bunch of other stuff.

The problem with pedophilia is the disparity in the mind. Which is more objectionable, an 8 year old magicked into a 20 year olds body and then getting fucked, or a 20 year old into a 8 year olds body? If you answered the second one, there is something wrong with you, but that appears to be the ethical framework being utilized here. I.E, the objection is based around it being physically unattractive and it's bad if you find it physically attractive.

No. That's not the problem. It's not even A Problem. It's certainly not helpful to the discussion either, and is out of step with our other understanding of sex, sexuality, and consent. Basically all the complaints revolve around having certain prefernces being "Immoral.".

A feeling cannot be immoral.

Okay, so you find it gross. Get a grip? That's literally the same ethical framework people use to shut down gay sex on tv and so on. You should not be attacking people for their sexuality and making them feel bad for it, that's bad behavior.

You may as well be wailing about how people who legit masturbate to two girls one cup are ethically repugnant and them pretending its about public health concerns to cover up what you're actually doing.

Guess what. This is also why being a Furry is okay, and fucking animals isn't. I'd expect you to know that Liriena, but I guess not.

Let's say it's loli. It's even child loli. The anime boobs and all. The most extreme, explicit case you can think of.
It's still not a problem, because there is no actual victim here.

You do have a point on the fact that, at least in principle, attraction to lolis (or shotas) is a victimless crime that's not even a crime in the first place and, yeah, innermost feelings, attractions, aren't immoral.

That said... there is an inherent silliness to the "protecc muh infantile anime waifu" brand of anti-SJWism that's worth mocking. It's dorky as fuck, specially when framed in terms of "I'm gonna cheer for homophobic censorship because it makes 'SJWs' mad and they allegedly took my video game lolis away".

If you're arguing about anime waifus in general, you're being dorky too. Everyone involved in this discussion is a dork. If you're mad about people fapping over anime waifus because they're not the right type of waifu, that is being a dork of a whole other level compared to just fapping over an anime waifu and wanting people to mind their own business.

SJWs have no business mocking anybody, it's merely a bullying tactic they use to make people feel bad about themselves and to shut down dissent, same as they do on practically all other topics.

Mate.
At this point, the SJWs are clearly the major threat to society. I can bet you Poles clapped when they saw Soviet tanks on the horizon in 44 and 45.

[Ostroeuropa]

Do you have any actual evidence or any of these claims of yours, like scientific evidence, or is it just assertions based in your worldview that the overwhelming majority of people are sick of and think is broken already?

Literally just look at any fucking scenario where the supply and demand for something have been normalized and/or legalized ffs, like holy shit this isn't rocket science. If you normalize something like pedophilia through the accepted consumption of animated acts of child sexualization/porn, then the fucking logical outcome is an inevitable increase in actual child sexualization/porn.

Do you think violence in tv programmes has led to a rise in violence in real life?
Because you'd be wrong.

Unlike much of the progressive left on this topic, most people can in fact tell the difference between fiction and reality, and understand normalizing a fictional trope is not the same thing as normalizing a behavior.

This is the same broken worldview used by your movement in general, and it usually has terrible results. We have studies on this, like the comprehensive decades long study on video games and misogyny that debunked feminist paranoia on that topic too.

[Liriena]

You do have a point on the fact that, at least in principle, attraction to lolis (or shotas) is a victimless crime that's not even a crime in the first place and, yeah, innermost feelings, attractions, aren't immoral.

That said... there is an inherent silliness to the "protecc muh infantile anime waifu" brand of anti-SJWism that's worth mocking. It's dorky as fuck, specially when framed in terms of "I'm gonna cheer for homophobic censorship because it makes 'SJWs' mad and they allegedly took my video game lolis away".

If you're arguing about anime waifus in general, you're being dorky too. Everyone involved in this discussion is a dork. If you're mad about people fapping over anime waifus because they're not the right type of waifu, that is being a dork of a whole other level compared to just fapping over an anime waifu and wanting people to mind their own business.

SJWs have no business mocking anybody, it's merely a bullying tactic they use to make people feel bad about themselves and to shut down dissent, same as they do on practically all other topics.

Mate.
At this point, the SJWs are clearly the major threat to society. I can bet you Poles clapped when they saw Soviet tanks on the horizon in 44 and 45.

Because they allegedly took away one guy's child waifu???

Nevermind the fact that what anime and gamer dorks accuse SJWs of is, more often than not, totally harmless stuff ("forced diversity" because there's a gay character, "feminism" because some Mortal Kombat characters now look more like realistically sexy women, "SJW insanity" because someone somewhere wrote a piece on video game accessibility and the need for easy modes) or just plain conspiracy theories (Mass Andromeda turned out the way it did because SJWs infiltrated Bioware and spent too much time writing LGBT characters and purposefully designing female characters to look ugly, rather than them simply being forced to go through an extremely rushed development cycle).

[Torrocca]

Literally just look at any fucking scenario where the supply and demand for something have been normalized and/or legalized ffs, like holy shit this isn't rocket science. If you normalize something like pedophilia through the accepted consumption of animated acts of child sexualization/porn, then the fucking logical outcome is an inevitable increase in actual child sexualization/porn.

Do you think violence in tv programmes has led to a rise in violence in real life?
Because you'd be wrong.

Unlike much of the progressive left on this topic, most people can in fact tell the difference between fiction and reality, and understand normalizing a fictional trope is not the same thing as normalizing a behavior.

This is the same broken worldview used by your movement in general, and it usually has terrible results. We have studies on this, like the comprehensive decades long study on video games and misogyny that debunked feminist paranoia on that topic too.

Weird how in all your inane rambling you didn't even bother to fact-check if you were wrong or not:

"The resulting report and a follow-up report in 1982 by the National Institute of Mental Health identified these major effects of seeing violence on television:

• Children may become less sensitive to the pain and suffering of others.
• Children may be more fearful of the world around them.
• Children may be more likely to behave in aggressive or harmful ways toward others."

[Ostroeuropa]

If you're arguing about anime waifus in general, you're being dorky too. Everyone involved in this discussion is a dork. If you're mad about people fapping over anime waifus because they're not the right type of waifu, that is being a dork of a whole other level compared to just fapping over an anime waifu and wanting people to mind their own business.

SJWs have no business mocking anybody, it's merely a bullying tactic they use to make people feel bad about themselves and to shut down dissent, same as they do on practically all other topics.

Mate.
At this point, the SJWs are clearly the major threat to society. I can bet you Poles clapped when they saw Soviet tanks on the horizon in 44 and 45.

Because they allegedly took away one guy's child waifu???

Nevermind the fact that what anime and gamer dorks accuse SJWs of is, more often than not, totally harmless stuff ("forced diversity" because there's a gay character, "feminism" because some Mortal Kombat characters now look more like realistically sexy women, "SJW insanity" because someone somewhere wrote a piece on video game accessibility and the need for easy modes) or just plain conspiracy theories (Mass Andromeda turned out the way it did because SJWs infiltrated Bioware and spent too much time writing LGBT characters and purposefully designing female characters to look ugly, rather than them simply being forced to go through an extremely rushed development cycle).

"It's just Danzig, what's the problem?".

No, because of constant aggression, escalating hate towards outsiders, authoritarianism, and so on. You cannot force people to ignore a consistent pattern of aggression, authoritarianism, and so on, and you cannot force them to ignore the bad faith of the progressive movement and all that. We know how they operate and escalate now.

You're ignoring instances of SJWs going further than that, and ignoring how the "diversity" plays out in those cases mostly as shitty writing, coupled with hostile vitriol to noting that shitty writing because "diversity".

[Nakena]

Literally just look at any fucking scenario where the supply and demand for something have been normalized and/or legalized ffs, like holy shit this isn't rocket science. If you normalize something like pedophilia through the accepted consumption of animated acts of child sexualization/porn, then the fucking logical outcome is an inevitable increase in actual child sexualization/porn.

What about Japan then? The land of Animu has not banned loli.

Weird how in all your inane rambling you didn't even bother to fact-check if you were wrong or not:

"The resulting report and a follow-up report in 1982 by the National Institute of Mental Health identified these major effects of seeing violence on television:

• Children may become less sensitive to the pain and suffering of others.
• Children may be more fearful of the world around them.
• Children may be more likely to behave in aggressive or harmful ways toward others."

So should we more regulate TV?

Thats not very anarchist.

[Ostroeuropa]

Do you think violence in tv programmes has led to a rise in violence in real life?
Because you'd be wrong.

Unlike much of the progressive left on this topic, most people can in fact tell the difference between fiction and reality, and understand normalizing a fictional trope is not the same thing as normalizing a behavior.

This is the same broken worldview used by your movement in general, and it usually has terrible results. We have studies on this, like the comprehensive decades long study on video games and misogyny that debunked feminist paranoia on that topic too.

Weird how in all your inane rambling you didn't even bother to fact-check if you were wrong or not:

"The resulting report and a follow-up report in 1982 by the National Institute of Mental Health identified these major effects of seeing violence on television:

• Children may become less sensitive to the pain and suffering of others.
• Children may be more fearful of the world around them.
• Children may be more likely to behave in aggressive or harmful ways toward others."

And if you bothered to keep reading you'd notice the far more modern challenges to that view. Ones which should be obvious.

Maybe if your kid is interacting with the tv 8 hours a day, it's not what's ON the tv causing their problems with connecting to other people. Same for video games.

The inane and trite observation that someone who drinks gallons of milk constantly develops health issues does not justify a paranoid conspiracy about how milk in general is bad for your health and needs to be banned.

[Liriena]

You're ignoring instances of SJWs going further than that

Such as?

and ignoring how the "diversity" plays out in those cases mostly as shitty writing, coupled with hostile vitriol to noting that shitty writing because "diversity".

Examples?

[Torrocca]

Literally just look at any fucking scenario where the supply and demand for something have been normalized and/or legalized ffs, like holy shit this isn't rocket science. If you normalize something like pedophilia through the accepted consumption of animated acts of child sexualization/porn, then the fucking logical outcome is an inevitable increase in actual child sexualization/porn.

What about Japan then? The land of Animu has not banned loli.

It's not looking as good as you'd think.

Weird how in all your inane rambling you didn't even bother to fact-check if you were wrong or not:

"The resulting report and a follow-up report in 1982 by the National Institute of Mental Health identified these major effects of seeing violence on television:

• Children may become less sensitive to the pain and suffering of others.
• Children may be more fearful of the world around them.
• Children may be more likely to behave in aggressive or harmful ways toward others."

So should we more regulate TV?

Thats not very anarchist.

I mean, you could just put words in my mouth. That's always fun, I suppose. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Torrocca]

Weird how in all your inane rambling you didn't even bother to fact-check if you were wrong or not:

"The resulting report and a follow-up report in 1982 by the National Institute of Mental Health identified these major effects of seeing violence on television:

• Children may become less sensitive to the pain and suffering of others.
• Children may be more fearful of the world around them.
• Children may be more likely to behave in aggressive or harmful ways toward others."

And if you bothered to keep reading you'd notice the far more modern challenges to that view. Ones which should be obvious.

Maybe if your kid is interacting with the tv 8 hours a day, it's not what's ON the tv causing their problems with connecting to other people. Same for video games.

The inane and trite observation that someone who drinks gallons of milk constantly develops health issues does not justify a paranoid conspiracy about how milk in general is bad for your health and needs to be banned.

Here's a more in-depth study on the matter, since you are so cocksure there's literally no possible way at all whatsoever violent media can have any influence on anyone.

[Ostroeuropa]

You're ignoring instances of SJWs going further than that

Such as?

and ignoring how the "diversity" plays out in those cases mostly as shitty writing, coupled with hostile vitriol to noting that shitty writing because "diversity".

Examples?

We're discussing one currently?

Or you can look at the uproar over Shield Hero with all the flak it got for having a main character who was falsely accused of rape because DAS SEXIST DOESNT HAPPEN NOT REAL and so on, despite this being integral to the plot and straight up good writing thematically that connects to his overall story arc.

There's plenty Lir.

Examples?
Ghostbusters.

[Ostroeuropa]

And if you bothered to keep reading you'd notice the far more modern challenges to that view. Ones which should be obvious.

Maybe if your kid is interacting with the tv 8 hours a day, it's not what's ON the tv causing their problems with connecting to other people. Same for video games.

The inane and trite observation that someone who drinks gallons of milk constantly develops health issues does not justify a paranoid conspiracy about how milk in general is bad for your health and needs to be banned.

Here's a more in-depth study on the matter, since you are so cocksure there's literally no possible way at all whatsoever violent media can have any influence on anyone.

This is a study that conflates violent roleplay for violence, something that has been catastrophic for boys in the education system if you bother to look into the matter. The same paranoid nonsense this study pushes which you are agreeing with has never actually been proven. There is no correlation between a kid making a finger gun and saying "Bang bang" while running around a playground with his friends, and shooting up a school, because, listen carefully:

People can tell the difference.

Leonard Sax has written at length on this topic and how this zero tolerance attitude has resulted in anti-male sexism in schools.

What your studies are doing is showing that if you show children FICTION WITH VIOLENCE, they will engage in FICTIONAL VIOLENCE, not violence itself. This is incredibly basic, and the lack of ability to tell the difference between reality and fiction this view suggests is disturbing.

Know what they haven't studied?

Show some kids a violent movie, then put the kids in a room and see if they beat the shit out of eachother.
Know why?

Because they don't. That's ludicrous.

So instead these types who have a paranoid theory about violence in media show that children play with dolls and have war games more if you show them war movies and go;
"AHAH! MOVIES MAKE YOU HITLER! ITS PROVEN!"

Ultimately its rooted in some disgusting hybrid of feminist theory and conservative morality about sex.

[Liriena]

Such as?


Examples?

We're discussing one currently?

Or you can look at the uproar over Shield Hero with all the flak it got for having a main character who was falsely accused of rape because DAS SEXIST DOESNT HAPPEN NOT REAL and so on, despite this being integral to the plot and straight up good writing thematically that connects to his overall story arc.

How big was that uproar, exactly?

Examples?
Ghostbusters.

Are you implying that the feminist counter-reaction that followed the preemptive criticism that the film got somehow influenced the writing and pre-production of the film?

And yes, the film was terribly written, but then you'd have to prove that "SJWs" had anything to do with that, rather than the film just happening to have two deeply untalented writers and being produced by a mediocre studio.

Are you arguing that if a "SJW" writes a bad screenplay, it's because they are a "SJW", rather than just untalented? What happens when a "SJW" writes a good screenplay or novel? Is it just an accident?

[Galloism]

And yes, the film was terribly written, but then you'd have to prove that "SJWs" had anything to do with that, rather than the film just happening to have two deeply untalented writers and being produced by a mediocre studio.

Also, you can't have all four main characters be comic relief. Ideally you have one or two, but at least have ONE character who plays the whole thing serious and straight.

It makes the comic relief a lot more funny if at least one character is perpetually pissed off by it.

[Liriena]

And yes, the film was terribly written, but then you'd have to prove that "SJWs" had anything to do with that, rather than the film just happening to have two deeply untalented writers and being produced by a mediocre studio.

Also, you can't have all four main characters be comic relief. Ideally you have one or two, but at least have ONE character who plays the whole thing serious and straight.

It makes the comic relief a lot more funny if at least one character is perpetually pissed off by it.

DO YOU GET IT PAUL FEEEEEEIG??!!!

[Ostroeuropa]

We're discussing one currently?

Or you can look at the uproar over Shield Hero with all the flak it got for having a main character who was falsely accused of rape because DAS SEXIST DOESNT HAPPEN NOT REAL and so on, despite this being integral to the plot and straight up good writing thematically that connects to his overall story arc.

How big was that uproar, exactly?

Examples?
Ghostbusters.

Are you implying that the feminist counter-reaction that followed the preemptive criticism that the film got somehow influenced the writing and pre-production of the film?

And yes, the film was terribly written, but then you'd have to prove that "SJWs" had anything to do with that, rather than the film just happening to have two deeply untalented writers and being produced by a mediocre studio.

Pretty big considering.

The reaction to the trailer was what prompted the criticism, and then feminists launched into a defense of the film and claimed criticism was sexist.

[Nakena]

I like how this Thread is now all about Loli and 2016 drama.

[Liriena]

How big was that uproar, exactly?


Are you implying that the feminist counter-reaction that followed the preemptive criticism that the film got somehow influenced the writing and pre-production of the film?

And yes, the film was terribly written, but then you'd have to prove that "SJWs" had anything to do with that, rather than the film just happening to have two deeply untalented writers and being produced by a mediocre studio.

Pretty big considering.

Are we talking mainstream coverage, trending hashtags, big public figures...?

The reaction to the trailer was what prompted the criticism, and then feminists launched into a defense of the film and claimed criticism was sexist.

None of which has anything to do with the quality of the film itself, does it? Just because feminist journalists criticized the criticism that the trailers received as "sexist" doesn't mean that those same feminist journalists had a hand in the writing of the film, or that the writers had an identical worldview.

[Ostroeuropa]

Pretty big considering.

Are we talking mainstream coverage, trending hashtags, big public figures...?

The reaction to the trailer was what prompted the criticism, and then feminists launched into a defense of the film and claimed criticism was sexist.

None of which has anything to do with the quality of the film itself, does it? Just because feminist journalists criticized the criticism that the trailers received as "sexist" doesn't mean that those same feminist journalists had a hand in the writing of the film, or that the writers had an identical worldview.

It didn't get that big, but in the anime scene it was pretty well known. Anime review sites and magazines overrun with SJWs pushed that narrative.

Feige said he set out to write a feminist comedy.

[Proctopeo]

It's important to note that, with this Cirnofriend, most of their lewd retweets lately seem to be... big anime tiddies. I can't check their likes or replies because I don't have a Twitter account, so I'll ask a friend to check for me, but it's likely more of the same. So it seems to be mostly just people blindly believing Dril.

Now, I'm of the mind that calling loli "pedophilia" is a recipe for devaluing the term "pedophilia". I've known people into far worse, and they weren't the sort to consume human flesh, or disembowel someone, so...

[Liriena]

Are we talking mainstream coverage, trending hashtags, big public figures...?


None of which has anything to do with the quality of the film itself, does it? Just because feminist journalists criticized the criticism that the trailers received as "sexist" doesn't mean that those same feminist journalists had a hand in the writing of the film, or that the writers had an identical worldview.

It didn't get that big, but in the anime scene it was pretty well known. Anime review sites and magazines overrun with SJWs pushed that narrative.

"Overrun with SJWs"? Sounds like you think there's a "no true anime fan" thing going on; that the only people who could have been critical of that plot element must have been brigading SJW infiltrators. Sounds kinda biased, dude.

Feige said he set out to write a feminist comedy.

Did he?

[Proctopeo]

It didn't get that big, but in the anime scene it was pretty well known. Anime review sites and magazines overrun with SJWs pushed that narrative.

"Overrun with SJWs"? Sounds like you think there's a "no true anime fan" thing going on; that the only people who could have been critical of that plot element must have been brigading SJW infiltrators. Sounds kinda biased, dude.

Anime News Network and Anime Feminist both shitcanned "The Rising of the Shield Hero", not for anything like quality of writing, story, characters, or art, but... one single plot point.

That the main character was falsely accused of rape by a woman.
That was their objection. The audacity that the writers would even consider that possible within the laws of physics.
ANN panned it hard (saying to "burn it and salt the earth" and accusing the writer of being "angry at women") and AF refused to even touch it. That isn't called "being critical". It's purely ideological.

Coincidentally I get my anime news from other sources, even long before that.

[Cekoviu]

Can I just say how horrifying it is that anime has become a legitimate political topic to debate?

[Liriena]

ANN panned it hard (saying to "burn it and salt the earth" and accusing the writer of being "angry at women") and AF refused to even touch it. That isn't called "being critical". It's purely ideological.

A couple things: political critique of cultural artifacts is just as "purely ideological" as "apolitical" critique. Art is political, including anime. That you and Ostro happen to personally disagree with the arguments of that critique doesn't make it some sort of evil infiltration to destroy the things you love. And also, you're being a bit deceitful here. One reviewer in ANN panned it on those grounds. There were also two three-star reviews, one two-and-a-half-stars review, and the one-and-a-half-star review has this to say, beyond the false rape accusation thing:

The other reason I felt the need to take so much time addressing Rising of the Shield Hero's central controversy is because the rest of the show is so unforgivably boring. Naofumi is a completely uninteresting protagonist 70% of the time and a complete tool for the other 30%. He's only the most "likable" member of the cast so far because everyone else is either a paper-thin nobody or an unrepentant asshole. The fantasy world itself has no unique qualities of its own – for all I know, it may as well be the same setting as Death March to The Parallel World Rhapsody. The only true conflict in this double-length premiere, which is constantly hammered home through the episode's awful monotonous dialogue, is that Naofumi feels like a loser for being stuck as the Shield Guy. It's contrived, silly, and in no way warrants so much runtime. Shields are perfectly capable deadly weapons. People have been murdering other people with shields since the literal dawn of human civilization. Watching a stale cracker of a protagonist get dunked on for an hour because he's been assigned a role that millions of MMO players fulfill just fine every day does not a good premiere make.

Rising of the Shield Hero has only one redeeming quality, and that is its production values. Kinema Citrus still knows how to bring this world to life in vivid color, even if the overall direction is mostly lifeless, and Kevin Penkin's score is wonderful as always. I joked at the beginning of the season that Penkin's music would be the only reason I watched this show, but even that turned out to be setting the bar too high. Even if the Myne plot were completely cut out, this show would still feel like a waste of time, because it offers absolutely nothing we haven't seen done better a dozen times before. I'll be more than happy to simply buy the OST when it comes out and not waste any more time with this nonsense series.

[Ostroeuropa]

It didn't get that big, but in the anime scene it was pretty well known. Anime review sites and magazines overrun with SJWs pushed that narrative.

"Overrun with SJWs"? Sounds like you think there's a "no true anime fan" thing going on; that the only people who could have been critical of that plot element must have been brigading SJW infiltrators. Sounds kinda biased, dude.

Feige said he set out to write a feminist comedy.

Did he?

What Proctopeo said, and beyond that, deliberately avoiding confronting the obvious isn't an argument.