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LWDT 7: The Earth and Heavens Tremble.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Book on Leftist Ideology is Your Preferred Book?

The Communist Manifesto (Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels)
23
18%
The Conquest of Bread (Peter Kropotkin)
24
19%
Das Kapital (Karl Marx)
21
16%
What is Property? (Pierre-Joseph Proudhon)
2
2%
Guerilla Warfare (Che Guevara)
8
6%
Mutual Aid (Peter Kropotkin)
2
2%
Profit Over People (Noam Chomsky)
4
3%
The Ego and Its Own (Max Stirner)
8
6%
Debt: The First 5,000 Years (David Graeber)
5
4%
Other (Please Explain)
32
25%
 
Total votes : 129

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26912
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Torrocca » Tue May 21, 2019 7:36 pm

Benuty wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
I mean, it's really not a No True Scotsman to say Communism wasn't implemented in the USSR or the other Marxist-Leninist countries, but otherwise, yeah, Stalin went fucking bonkers destroying any chance of it happening.

I mean let us be honest the marxist-Leninists tried, and failed spectacularly.


Eh... not really. Lenin and the original Marxists of the Bolshevik Party may have tried to some degree, but when that degree included shit like snuffing out Communists in Kronstadt and Ukraine, I find it dubious.
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

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Cekoviu
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16381
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Cekoviu » Tue May 21, 2019 7:38 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:That actually lines up pretty well with implementations of communism in the past...


>TFW the USSR and whatnot never actually implemented Communism but Commies of all stripes get bullied relentlessly regardless because of the association

Cek pls ;~;

That is fair - it wasn't technically communism, despite the name. I'll revise that to be attempts to implement communism.
RWDT - REST IN POWER
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Benuty
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36353
Founded: Jan 21, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Benuty » Tue May 21, 2019 7:39 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Benuty wrote:I mean let us be honest the marxist-Leninists tried, and failed spectacularly.


Eh... not really. Lenin and the original Marxists of the Bolshevik Party may have tried to some degree, but when that degree included shit like snuffing out Communists in Kronstadt and Ukraine, I find it dubious.

Dubious? Maybe, but power, and ensuring its continuance rarely leaves people even with the best of intentions (ideologically) pure by the time they near the end of life. Case in point the quarantining, and destruction of the anarchist allies the Bolsheviks used to fight their enemies until no longer needed.
Last edited by Hashem 13.8 billion years ago
King of Madness in the Right Wing Discussion Thread. Winner of 2016 Posters Award for Insanity.
Please be aware my posts in NSG, and P2TM are separate.

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Benuty
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36353
Founded: Jan 21, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Benuty » Tue May 21, 2019 7:40 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Weren't you also bioregionalist?

I don't believe I know what a bioregionalist is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioregionalism

This might explain it somewhat, but you know wiki links can only go so far.
Last edited by Hashem 13.8 billion years ago
King of Madness in the Right Wing Discussion Thread. Winner of 2016 Posters Award for Insanity.
Please be aware my posts in NSG, and P2TM are separate.

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26912
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Torrocca » Tue May 21, 2019 7:41 pm

Benuty wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Eh... not really. Lenin and the original Marxists of the Bolshevik Party may have tried to some degree, but when that degree included shit like snuffing out Communists in Kronstadt and Ukraine, I find it dubious.

Dubious? Maybe, but power, and ensuring its continuance rarely leaves people even with the best of intentions (ideologically) pure by the time they near the end of life. Case in point the quarantining, and destruction of the anarchist allies the Bolsheviks used to fight their enemies until no longer needed.


Which is quite honestly the best example of why the Marxist idea of achieving Communism is flawed as all hell; the Anarchists skipped the Socialist state ruled by a "dictatorship of the proletariat" and went straight to the stateless, classless, moneyless society of Communism, whereas the Bolsheviks consolidated power rather than ever earnestly transition to Communism.

Cekoviu wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
>TFW the USSR and whatnot never actually implemented Communism but Commies of all stripes get bullied relentlessly regardless because of the association

Cek pls ;~;

That is fair - it wasn't technically communism, despite the name. I'll revise that to be attempts to implement communism.


Thanks <3
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Pasong Tirad
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9979
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Tue May 21, 2019 7:50 pm

Benuty wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:I don't believe I know what a bioregionalist is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioregionalism

This might explain it somewhat, but you know wiki links can only go so far.

An argument can be made to call me some kind of regionalist or regionalism-leaning person in that I believe that local government units need to be smaller - commune sizes, if you will or its Philippine variant, the barangay - but I live in a pretty big island with like 50 million people living in it, I can hardly consider myself a bioregionalist, especially if it means the exclusion of areas of the Philippines that are already being pushed into the margins for ethnic and geographical reasons.

User avatar
Nyasira
Attaché
 
Posts: 73
Founded: May 16, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nyasira » Tue May 21, 2019 11:11 pm

What do you think is currently the most successful existing example of a leftist movement globally?


Out of those options, the Zapatistas. Though I don't think any of them are as successful compared to ML states, but I suppose at doesn't qualify as a 'movement'.
Pro: Communism, Socialism, Anarchism, LGBT Rights, Marxism-Leninism, Maoism, China, Maduro, Xi Jinping, Left/Real Libertarianism
Anti: Capitalism, (Neo-)Nazism, Fascism, Liberalism, Conservatism, NATO, European Union, Imperialism, Racism, Right/False Libertarianism

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Jack Thomas Lang
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1856
Founded: Apr 18, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jack Thomas Lang » Tue May 21, 2019 11:14 pm

Bat'ko was a dunderhead who deserved what he got for helping the Bolshies. If it wasn't for Bat'ko sucking away AFSR troops when Denikin needed them most for the Moscow offensive, the White Army would have been parading in Moscow by 1919.

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The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8228
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Wed May 22, 2019 12:59 am

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:Bat'ko was a dunderhead who deserved what he got for helping the Bolshies. If it wasn't for Bat'ko sucking away AFSR troops when Denikin needed them most for the Moscow offensive, the White Army would have been parading in Moscow by 1919.

Um... Isn't Bat'ko a YouTuber?
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm a 19 year old Australian who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

I think I have gender dysphoria so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
Benuty
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36353
Founded: Jan 21, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Benuty » Wed May 22, 2019 1:01 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:Bat'ko was a dunderhead who deserved what he got for helping the Bolshies. If it wasn't for Bat'ko sucking away AFSR troops when Denikin needed them most for the Moscow offensive, the White Army would have been parading in Moscow by 1919.

Um... Isn't Bat'ko a YouTuber?

I looked it up, and it seems to be a reference to Nestor Makhno and a few others.
Last edited by Hashem 13.8 billion years ago
King of Madness in the Right Wing Discussion Thread. Winner of 2016 Posters Award for Insanity.
Please be aware my posts in NSG, and P2TM are separate.

User avatar
Jack Thomas Lang
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1856
Founded: Apr 18, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jack Thomas Lang » Wed May 22, 2019 1:02 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Um... Isn't Bat'ko a YouTuber?

He is, and an Aussie to boot. But I'm talking about Nester Makhno, the Ukrainian anarchist. Bat'ko takes his name from Makhno.

User avatar
Crysuko
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6362
Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Crysuko » Wed May 22, 2019 1:31 am

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Um... Isn't Bat'ko a YouTuber?

He is, and an Aussie to boot. But I'm talking about Nester Makhno, the Ukrainian anarchist. Bat'ko takes his name from Makhno.

Makhno is my husbando. also, i'm entirely sure the free territory could have survived on it's own if trotsky hadn't fucked with it
Quotes:
Xilonite wrote: cookies are heresy.

Kelinfort wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:A terrorist attack on a disabled center doesn't make a lot of sense, unless to show no one is safe.

This will take some time to figure out, i am afraid.

"No one is safe, not even your most vulnerable and insecure!"

Cesopium wrote:Welp let's hope armies of 10 million don't just roam around and Soviet their way through everything.

Yugoslav Memes wrote:
Victoriala II wrote:Ur mom has value

one week ban for flaming xd

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Much better than the kulak smoothies. Their texture was suspiciously grainy.

Syndicalist, vehement anti-fascist.
I USE Qs INSTEAD OF Qs

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8228
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Wed May 22, 2019 1:36 am

Crysuko wrote:
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:He is, and an Aussie to boot. But I'm talking about Nester Makhno, the Ukrainian anarchist. Bat'ko takes his name from Makhno.

Makhno is my husbando. also, i'm entirely sure the free territory could have survived on it's own if trotsky hadn't fucked with it

When a Communist makes fun of Trotsky it initiates a Pavlovian response from me.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm a 19 year old Australian who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

I think I have gender dysphoria so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
Crysuko
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6362
Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Crysuko » Wed May 22, 2019 1:37 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Crysuko wrote:Makhno is my husbando. also, i'm entirely sure the free territory could have survived on it's own if trotsky hadn't fucked with it

When a Communist makes fun of Trotsky it initiates a Pavlovian response from me.

good thing i'm a syndicalist.
Quotes:
Xilonite wrote: cookies are heresy.

Kelinfort wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:A terrorist attack on a disabled center doesn't make a lot of sense, unless to show no one is safe.

This will take some time to figure out, i am afraid.

"No one is safe, not even your most vulnerable and insecure!"

Cesopium wrote:Welp let's hope armies of 10 million don't just roam around and Soviet their way through everything.

Yugoslav Memes wrote:
Victoriala II wrote:Ur mom has value

one week ban for flaming xd

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Much better than the kulak smoothies. Their texture was suspiciously grainy.

Syndicalist, vehement anti-fascist.
I USE Qs INSTEAD OF Qs

User avatar
Jack Thomas Lang
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1856
Founded: Apr 18, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jack Thomas Lang » Wed May 22, 2019 2:00 am

Crysuko wrote:Makhno is my husbando. also, i'm entirely sure the free territory could have survived on it's own if trotsky hadn't fucked with it

Sure, it would have survived on its own if the Bolsheviks allowed an anarchist enclave within their borders sitting on prime agricultural and industrial land. The Free Territory was doomed to fail and it helped take the Whites down with it.

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West Leas Oros 2
Senator
 
Posts: 4633
Founded: Jul 15, 2018
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Wed May 22, 2019 5:31 am

Crysuko wrote:
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:He is, and an Aussie to boot. But I'm talking about Nester Makhno, the Ukrainian anarchist. Bat'ko takes his name from Makhno.

Makhno is my husbando. also, i'm entirely sure the free territory could have survived on it's own if trotsky hadn't fucked with it

>Implying Trotsky fucking the free territory was a bad thing
*malicious trot noises*
WLO Public News: Outdated Factbooks and other documents in process of major redesign!
How many South Americans need to be killed by the CIA before you realize socialism is bad? Simultaneously an evil commie who wants to take your toothbrush, and an evil brocialist reactionary and revisionist.
Conscientious Objector in the Culture War

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Dumb Ideologies
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43372
Founded: Sep 30, 2007
Mother Knows Best State

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Wed May 22, 2019 6:22 am

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:
Crysuko wrote:Makhno is my husbando. also, i'm entirely sure the free territory could have survived on it's own if trotsky hadn't fucked with it

>Implying Trotsky fucking the free territory was a bad thing
*malicious trot noises*


"Free Territory? I'll take it!"

Way I sees, they were sort of asking for it...
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Wed May 22, 2019 6:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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¸„¤*˜*¤„¸„¤*˜*¤„¸ To culture war! The cause of and solution to all of life's problems ¸„¤*˜*¤„¸„¤*˜*¤„¸
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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54466
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed May 22, 2019 6:36 am

Reminder that anti-communist socialism was seen as basically normal for a long time and included figures like Betrand Russel, who said of Marx;

"In relation to any political doctrine there are two questions to be asked: (1) Are its theoretical tenets true? (2) Is its practical policy likely to increase human happiness? For my part, I think the theoretical tenets of Communism are false, and I think its practical maxims are such as to produce an immeasurable increase of human misery."

"The theoretical doctrines of Communism are for the most part derived from Marx. My objections to Marx are of two sorts: one, that he was muddle-headed; and the other, that his thinking was almost entirely inspired by hatred. The doctrine of surplus value, which is supposed to demonstrate the exploitation of wage-earners under capitalism, is arrived at: (a) by surreptitiously accepting Malthus’s doctrine of population, which Marx and all his disciples explicitly repudiate; (b) by applying Ricardo’s theory of value to wages, but not to the prices of manufactured articles. He is entirely satisfied with the result, not because it is in accordance with the facts or because it is logically coherent, but because it is calculated to rouse fury in wage-earners. Marx’s doctrine that all historical events have been motivated by class conflicts is a rash and untrue extension to world history of certain features prominent in England and France a hundred years ago. His belief that there is a cosmic force called Dialectical Materialism which governs human history independently of human volitions, is mere mythology. His theoretical errors, however, would not have mattered so much but for the fact that, like Tertullian and Carlyle, his chief desire was to see his enemies punished, and he cared little what happened to his friends in the process."


And of Lenin;
"He seemed to be a reincarnation of Cromwell, with all the same limitations: absolute orthodoxy. He thought a proposition could be proved by quoting Marx. And he was incapable of supposing that there was anything in Marx that wasn't right"


Yet supported workplace democracy, short working hours, and was critical of capitalism, noting;
"Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim: The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate."
The plague has been worse for women.
It's true that more men are dying from COVID, but that's not exactly a cause for celebration.
https://i.redd.it/oqy5p3p1ayv41.png

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The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8228
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Wed May 22, 2019 6:58 am

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:
Crysuko wrote:Makhno is my husbando. also, i'm entirely sure the free territory could have survived on it's own if trotsky hadn't fucked with it

>Implying Trotsky fucking the free territory was a bad thing
*malicious trot noises*

I'm kind of lost. What was the free territory, and why did Trotsky have sex with it?
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm a 19 year old Australian who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

I think I have gender dysphoria so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
Nakena
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11558
Founded: May 06, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Nakena » Wed May 22, 2019 7:01 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:>Implying Trotsky fucking the free territory was a bad thing
*malicious trot noises*

I'm kind of lost. What was the free territory, and why did Trotsky have sex with it?


Here you go

User avatar
Crysuko
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6362
Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Crysuko » Wed May 22, 2019 7:41 am

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:
Crysuko wrote:Makhno is my husbando. also, i'm entirely sure the free territory could have survived on it's own if trotsky hadn't fucked with it

>Implying Trotsky fucking the free territory was a bad thing
*malicious trot noises*

I'd consider fighting you but you'd split before I got there :^)
Quotes:
Xilonite wrote: cookies are heresy.

Kelinfort wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:A terrorist attack on a disabled center doesn't make a lot of sense, unless to show no one is safe.

This will take some time to figure out, i am afraid.

"No one is safe, not even your most vulnerable and insecure!"

Cesopium wrote:Welp let's hope armies of 10 million don't just roam around and Soviet their way through everything.

Yugoslav Memes wrote:
Victoriala II wrote:Ur mom has value

one week ban for flaming xd

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Much better than the kulak smoothies. Their texture was suspiciously grainy.

Syndicalist, vehement anti-fascist.
I USE Qs INSTEAD OF Qs

User avatar
West Leas Oros 2
Senator
 
Posts: 4633
Founded: Jul 15, 2018
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Wed May 22, 2019 7:49 am

Crysuko wrote:
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:>Implying Trotsky fucking the free territory was a bad thing
*malicious trot noises*

I'd consider fighting you but you'd split before I got there :^)

Where’s the Seinfeld bass when you need it?
WLO Public News: Outdated Factbooks and other documents in process of major redesign!
How many South Americans need to be killed by the CIA before you realize socialism is bad? Simultaneously an evil commie who wants to take your toothbrush, and an evil brocialist reactionary and revisionist.
Conscientious Objector in the Culture War

NationStates Leftist Alternative only needs a couple more nations before it can hold its constitutional convention!

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54466
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed May 22, 2019 8:15 am

Dutch minister for migration has resigned following it emerging that he covered up the extent of rapes and murders committed by migrants, sweeping those crimes under "Other" in his report on migrant crime.
The plague has been worse for women.
It's true that more men are dying from COVID, but that's not exactly a cause for celebration.
https://i.redd.it/oqy5p3p1ayv41.png

User avatar
Nakena
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11558
Founded: May 06, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Nakena » Wed May 22, 2019 8:17 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:Dutch minister for migration has resigned following it emerging that he covered up the extent of rapes and murders committed by migrants, sweeping those crimes under "Other" in his report on migrant crime.


Sounds spicy.

Sauce me up.

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54466
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed May 22, 2019 8:18 am

Nakena wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:Dutch minister for migration has resigned following it emerging that he covered up the extent of rapes and murders committed by migrants, sweeping those crimes under "Other" in his report on migrant crime.


Sounds spicy.

Sauce me up.


https://www.google.com/search?q=dutch+m ... 66&bih=625

"Shame to lose such a Talented Liberal"

lol
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Wed May 22, 2019 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
The plague has been worse for women.
It's true that more men are dying from COVID, but that's not exactly a cause for celebration.
https://i.redd.it/oqy5p3p1ayv41.png

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