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LWDT 7: The Earth and Heavens Tremble.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Book on Leftist Ideology is Your Preferred Book?

The Communist Manifesto (Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels)
17
17%
The Conquest of Bread (Peter Kropotkin)
21
21%
Das Kapital (Karl Marx)
17
17%
What is Property? (Pierre-Joseph Proudhon)
2
2%
Guerilla Warfare (Che Guevara)
6
6%
Mutual Aid (Peter Kropotkin)
2
2%
Profit Over People (Noam Chomsky)
3
3%
The Ego and Its Own (Max Stirner)
7
7%
Debt: The First 5,000 Years (David Graeber)
3
3%
Other (Please Explain)
22
22%
 
Total votes : 100

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6601
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Tue May 21, 2019 7:18 pm

Torrocca wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:My day is ruined.


Get on that Bread Book train, girl, and no longer will your day be ruined!

Well, it'll probably get ruined anyway by the atrocities of Capitalism and the state, but I digress.

Okay, I will read Conquest of Bread, but only because you called me "girl."
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0
Social: -8
NS Stats should be taken with a pinch of salt, but they're not too far off.
I'm an 18 year old Australian male* who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

*I'm sort of questioning my gender, thinking I might be gender dysphoric, so if you want, I would prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

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Pasong Tirad
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8849
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Tue May 21, 2019 7:18 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:This is the LWDT, what did you expect?

I know, but... Canada tho?

The revolution is international.
"If there is no friendship with them [the poor] and no sharing of the life of the poor, then there is no authentic commitment to liberation, because love exists only among equals."
- Gustavo Gutiérrez
[b]Filipino||Catholic Liberationist||Leftist||He/Him||Bisexual||Trans Rights
Rojava||Free Taiwan||Assyria||Zapatistas

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Pasong Tirad
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8849
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Tue May 21, 2019 7:19 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Get on that Bread Book train, girl, and no longer will your day be ruined!

Well, it'll probably get ruined anyway by the atrocities of Capitalism and the state, but I digress.

Okay, I will read Conquest of Bread, but only because you called me "girl."

There are free audiobook and e-book versions online that you can download. For free. No strings attached. Free. Totally 100% free.
"If there is no friendship with them [the poor] and no sharing of the life of the poor, then there is no authentic commitment to liberation, because love exists only among equals."
- Gustavo Gutiérrez
[b]Filipino||Catholic Liberationist||Leftist||He/Him||Bisexual||Trans Rights
Rojava||Free Taiwan||Assyria||Zapatistas

User avatar
Nakena
Minister
 
Posts: 2653
Founded: May 06, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nakena » Tue May 21, 2019 7:19 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:I know, but... Canada tho?

The revolution is international.


Weren't you also bioregionalist?
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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24356
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Tue May 21, 2019 7:20 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Get on that Bread Book train, girl, and no longer will your day be ruined!

Well, it'll probably get ruined anyway by the atrocities of Capitalism and the state, but I digress.

Okay, I will read Conquest of Bread, but only because you called me "girl."


Yay! :3
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

User avatar
Cekoviu
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9288
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Tue May 21, 2019 7:21 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:This is the LWDT, what did you expect?

I know, but... Canada tho?

Canada is the pinnacle of libertarian socialism, ya Kiwi.
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Get on that Bread Book train, girl, and no longer will your day be ruined!

Well, it'll probably get ruined anyway by the atrocities of Capitalism and the state, but I digress.

Okay, I will read Conquest of Bread, but only because you called me "girl."

Also because it contains some great bread (both flatbread and uprising) recipes, I hope?
⮽⮽⮽ Copy and paste this in your sig if you hate the meme that your grade in 9th grade biology has literally anything to do with your fake-edgy views on gender. ⮽⮽⮽
Hickenlooper 2020
Cockroaches are cool. 8):
♀, not Bhutanese
  • Not knowing what the below sentence means
  • Picking Grookey over Sobble or Scorbunny

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Hanafuridake
Minister
 
Posts: 2627
Founded: Sep 09, 2018
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Hanafuridake » Tue May 21, 2019 7:21 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Get on that Bread Book train, girl, and no longer will your day be ruined!

Well, it'll probably get ruined anyway by the atrocities of Capitalism and the state, but I digress.

The Bread Book is a literary masterpiece on par with the works of Shakespeare, tbh.


Image
Time traveling Heian princess trapped in the 21st century

User avatar
Benuty
Post Czar
 
Posts: 35744
Founded: Jan 21, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Benuty » Tue May 21, 2019 7:26 pm

Hanafuridake wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:The Bread Book is a literary masterpiece on par with the works of Shakespeare, tbh.


Image

Given how skinny they look they might need more bread.
Last edited by Hashem 13.8 billion years ago
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Please be aware my posts in NSG, and P2TM are separate.

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Cekoviu
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9288
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Tue May 21, 2019 7:28 pm

Benuty wrote:
Hanafuridake wrote:
Image

Given how skinny they look they might need more bread.

That actually lines up pretty well with implementations of communism in the past...
⮽⮽⮽ Copy and paste this in your sig if you hate the meme that your grade in 9th grade biology has literally anything to do with your fake-edgy views on gender. ⮽⮽⮽
Hickenlooper 2020
Cockroaches are cool. 8):
♀, not Bhutanese
  • Not knowing what the below sentence means
  • Picking Grookey over Sobble or Scorbunny

User avatar
Benuty
Post Czar
 
Posts: 35744
Founded: Jan 21, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Benuty » Tue May 21, 2019 7:28 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:I know, but... Canada tho?

Canada is the pinnacle of libertarian socialism, ya Kiwi.
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Okay, I will read Conquest of Bread, but only because you called me "girl."

Also because it contains some great bread (both flatbread and uprising) recipes, I hope?

The only pinnacle of libertarian socialism is the Soviets under the libertarian branch of the party in Fuhrerreich.
Last edited by Hashem 13.8 billion years ago
King of Madness in the Right Wing Discussion Thread. Winner of 2016 Posters Award for Insanity.
Please be aware my posts in NSG, and P2TM are separate.

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24356
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Tue May 21, 2019 7:29 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Benuty wrote:Given how skinny they look they might need more bread.

That actually lines up pretty well with implementations of communism in the past...


>TFW the USSR and whatnot never actually implemented Communism but Commies of all stripes get bullied relentlessly regardless because of the association

Cek pls ;~;
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

User avatar
Benuty
Post Czar
 
Posts: 35744
Founded: Jan 21, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Benuty » Tue May 21, 2019 7:30 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:That actually lines up pretty well with implementations of communism in the past...


>TFW the USSR and whatnot never actually implemented Communism but Commies of all stripes get bullied relentlessly regardless because of the association

Cek pls ;~;

Ignoring the potential for a no true Scotsman here Lenin tried, died, and then Stalin floored the founder's vision into a nightmarish industrial hellscape.
Last edited by Hashem 13.8 billion years ago
King of Madness in the Right Wing Discussion Thread. Winner of 2016 Posters Award for Insanity.
Please be aware my posts in NSG, and P2TM are separate.

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24356
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Tue May 21, 2019 7:32 pm

Benuty wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
>TFW the USSR and whatnot never actually implemented Communism but Commies of all stripes get bullied relentlessly regardless because of the association

Cek pls ;~;

Ignoring the potential for a no true Scotsman here Lenin tried, died, and then Stalin floored the founder's vision into a nightmarish industrial hellscape.


I mean, it's really not a No True Scotsman to say Communism wasn't implemented in the USSR or the other Marxist-Leninist countries, but otherwise, yeah, Stalin went fucking bonkers destroying any chance of it happening.
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

User avatar
Benuty
Post Czar
 
Posts: 35744
Founded: Jan 21, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Benuty » Tue May 21, 2019 7:32 pm

On the topic of Lenin while I disagree with him on quite a lot his attempt to preserve Russian art, and intellectual culture following the revolution is somewhat interesting. Apparently, his contemporaries thought Russians degenerate, and in order to truly accomplish the party goals they needed to introduce a westernized culture.
Last edited by Benuty on Tue May 21, 2019 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Last edited by Hashem 13.8 billion years ago
King of Madness in the Right Wing Discussion Thread. Winner of 2016 Posters Award for Insanity.
Please be aware my posts in NSG, and P2TM are separate.

User avatar
Benuty
Post Czar
 
Posts: 35744
Founded: Jan 21, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Benuty » Tue May 21, 2019 7:34 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Benuty wrote:Ignoring the potential for a no true Scotsman here Lenin tried, died, and then Stalin floored the founder's vision into a nightmarish industrial hellscape.


I mean, it's really not a No True Scotsman to say Communism wasn't implemented in the USSR or the other Marxist-Leninist countries, but otherwise, yeah, Stalin went fucking bonkers destroying any chance of it happening.

I mean let us be honest the marxist-Leninists tried, and failed spectacularly. Not so much as the Maoists who basically created nazi's in the making with a lot of their followers fetishizing ethnic identity to the extreme.
Last edited by Hashem 13.8 billion years ago
King of Madness in the Right Wing Discussion Thread. Winner of 2016 Posters Award for Insanity.
Please be aware my posts in NSG, and P2TM are separate.

User avatar
Pasong Tirad
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8849
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Tue May 21, 2019 7:36 pm

Nakena wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:The revolution is international.


Weren't you also bioregionalist?

I don't believe I know what a bioregionalist is.
"If there is no friendship with them [the poor] and no sharing of the life of the poor, then there is no authentic commitment to liberation, because love exists only among equals."
- Gustavo Gutiérrez
[b]Filipino||Catholic Liberationist||Leftist||He/Him||Bisexual||Trans Rights
Rojava||Free Taiwan||Assyria||Zapatistas

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24356
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Tue May 21, 2019 7:36 pm

Benuty wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
I mean, it's really not a No True Scotsman to say Communism wasn't implemented in the USSR or the other Marxist-Leninist countries, but otherwise, yeah, Stalin went fucking bonkers destroying any chance of it happening.

I mean let us be honest the marxist-Leninists tried, and failed spectacularly.


Eh... not really. Lenin and the original Marxists of the Bolshevik Party may have tried to some degree, but when that degree included shit like snuffing out Communists in Kronstadt and Ukraine, I find it dubious.
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

User avatar
Cekoviu
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9288
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Tue May 21, 2019 7:38 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:That actually lines up pretty well with implementations of communism in the past...


>TFW the USSR and whatnot never actually implemented Communism but Commies of all stripes get bullied relentlessly regardless because of the association

Cek pls ;~;

That is fair - it wasn't technically communism, despite the name. I'll revise that to be attempts to implement communism.
⮽⮽⮽ Copy and paste this in your sig if you hate the meme that your grade in 9th grade biology has literally anything to do with your fake-edgy views on gender. ⮽⮽⮽
Hickenlooper 2020
Cockroaches are cool. 8):
♀, not Bhutanese
  • Not knowing what the below sentence means
  • Picking Grookey over Sobble or Scorbunny

User avatar
Benuty
Post Czar
 
Posts: 35744
Founded: Jan 21, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Benuty » Tue May 21, 2019 7:39 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Benuty wrote:I mean let us be honest the marxist-Leninists tried, and failed spectacularly.


Eh... not really. Lenin and the original Marxists of the Bolshevik Party may have tried to some degree, but when that degree included shit like snuffing out Communists in Kronstadt and Ukraine, I find it dubious.

Dubious? Maybe, but power, and ensuring its continuance rarely leaves people even with the best of intentions (ideologically) pure by the time they near the end of life. Case in point the quarantining, and destruction of the anarchist allies the Bolsheviks used to fight their enemies until no longer needed.
Last edited by Hashem 13.8 billion years ago
King of Madness in the Right Wing Discussion Thread. Winner of 2016 Posters Award for Insanity.
Please be aware my posts in NSG, and P2TM are separate.

User avatar
Benuty
Post Czar
 
Posts: 35744
Founded: Jan 21, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Benuty » Tue May 21, 2019 7:40 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Weren't you also bioregionalist?

I don't believe I know what a bioregionalist is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioregionalism

This might explain it somewhat, but you know wiki links can only go so far.
Last edited by Hashem 13.8 billion years ago
King of Madness in the Right Wing Discussion Thread. Winner of 2016 Posters Award for Insanity.
Please be aware my posts in NSG, and P2TM are separate.

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24356
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Tue May 21, 2019 7:41 pm

Benuty wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Eh... not really. Lenin and the original Marxists of the Bolshevik Party may have tried to some degree, but when that degree included shit like snuffing out Communists in Kronstadt and Ukraine, I find it dubious.

Dubious? Maybe, but power, and ensuring its continuance rarely leaves people even with the best of intentions (ideologically) pure by the time they near the end of life. Case in point the quarantining, and destruction of the anarchist allies the Bolsheviks used to fight their enemies until no longer needed.


Which is quite honestly the best example of why the Marxist idea of achieving Communism is flawed as all hell; the Anarchists skipped the Socialist state ruled by a "dictatorship of the proletariat" and went straight to the stateless, classless, moneyless society of Communism, whereas the Bolsheviks consolidated power rather than ever earnestly transition to Communism.

Cekoviu wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
>TFW the USSR and whatnot never actually implemented Communism but Commies of all stripes get bullied relentlessly regardless because of the association

Cek pls ;~;

That is fair - it wasn't technically communism, despite the name. I'll revise that to be attempts to implement communism.


Thanks <3
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

User avatar
Pasong Tirad
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8849
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Tue May 21, 2019 7:50 pm

Benuty wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:I don't believe I know what a bioregionalist is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioregionalism

This might explain it somewhat, but you know wiki links can only go so far.

An argument can be made to call me some kind of regionalist or regionalism-leaning person in that I believe that local government units need to be smaller - commune sizes, if you will or its Philippine variant, the barangay - but I live in a pretty big island with like 50 million people living in it, I can hardly consider myself a bioregionalist, especially if it means the exclusion of areas of the Philippines that are already being pushed into the margins for ethnic and geographical reasons.
"If there is no friendship with them [the poor] and no sharing of the life of the poor, then there is no authentic commitment to liberation, because love exists only among equals."
- Gustavo Gutiérrez
[b]Filipino||Catholic Liberationist||Leftist||He/Him||Bisexual||Trans Rights
Rojava||Free Taiwan||Assyria||Zapatistas

User avatar
Nyasira
Attaché
 
Posts: 73
Founded: May 16, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nyasira » Tue May 21, 2019 11:11 pm

What do you think is currently the most successful existing example of a leftist movement globally?


Out of those options, the Zapatistas. Though I don't think any of them are as successful compared to ML states, but I suppose at doesn't qualify as a 'movement'.
Pro: Communism, Socialism, Anarchism, LGBT Rights, Marxism-Leninism, Maoism, China, Maduro, Xi Jinping, Left/Real Libertarianism
Anti: Capitalism, (Neo-)Nazism, Fascism, Liberalism, Conservatism, NATO, European Union, Imperialism, Racism, Right/False Libertarianism

User avatar
Jack Thomas Lang
Diplomat
 
Posts: 686
Founded: Apr 18, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Jack Thomas Lang » Tue May 21, 2019 11:14 pm

Bat'ko was a dunderhead who deserved what he got for helping the Bolshies. If it wasn't for Bat'ko sucking away AFSR troops when Denikin needed them most for the Moscow offensive, the White Army would have been parading in Moscow by 1919.
Catholic Distributist
Three Acres and a Cow

"In the race of life, always back self-interest — at least you know it's trying."
Rerum Novarum and Quadragesimo Anno

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The Xenopolis Confederation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6601
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Wed May 22, 2019 12:59 am

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:Bat'ko was a dunderhead who deserved what he got for helping the Bolshies. If it wasn't for Bat'ko sucking away AFSR troops when Denikin needed them most for the Moscow offensive, the White Army would have been parading in Moscow by 1919.

Um... Isn't Bat'ko a YouTuber?
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0
Social: -8
NS Stats should be taken with a pinch of salt, but they're not too far off.
I'm an 18 year old Australian male* who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

*I'm sort of questioning my gender, thinking I might be gender dysphoric, so if you want, I would prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

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