New Civilizations ( OOC, Always Open, Reboot )

[UniversalCommons]

Industrial society in some ways is overrated. I like William Morris's ideas of the Arts and Crafts Movement. Having a society of craftsmen or craftspeople with very high quality goods backed by a scientific revolution appeals to me. Keeping things clean, craft oriented, high quality, building on a human scale, and scientific is appealing. Also using water, wind, and wave power has an appeal to me with a dose of human powered machinery and some biofuels. There is a lot of impracticality in reading people like Lewis Mumford, R. Buckminster Fuller, and John Todd, but it provides for an idea of building a clean society without the baggage of mass consumerism.

[Reatra]

Industrial society in some ways is overrated. I like William Morris's ideas of the Arts and Crafts Movement. Having a society of craftsmen or craftspeople with very high quality goods backed by a scientific revolution appeals to me. Keeping things clean, craft oriented, high quality, building on a human scale, and scientific is appealing. Also using water, wind, and wave power has an appeal to me with a dose of human powered machinery and some biofuels. There is a lot of impracticality in reading people like Lewis Mumford, R. Buckminster Fuller, and John Todd, but it provides for an idea of building a clean society without the baggage of mass consumerism.

industrial does not mean capitalist, let alone liberal capitalist like that, it just means capability and technology.

[G-Tech Corporation]

So Plzen, looking at your post, I’m not really sure what to do with it. An outsider gawking at Mara isn’t ICly going to provoke much more of a reaction than last time your character’s beau swung by. And he essentially just got told where the nearest market was.

[Plzen]

So Plzen, looking at your post, I’m not really sure what to do with it. An outsider gawking at Mara isn’t ICly going to provoke much more of a reaction than last time your character’s beau swung by. And he essentially just got told where the nearest market was.

An outsider with an entourage would provoke some level of curiosity, no? It’s not like tourism is a big thing in this era. You can coincidentally stumble upon the scene or something.

I’m not sure what to do to draw more attention, to be honest. It’s not like some random person asking to meet the village leadership is going to go down remotely well.

[G-Tech Corporation]

So Plzen, looking at your post, I’m not really sure what to do with it. An outsider gawking at Mara isn’t ICly going to provoke much more of a reaction than last time your character’s beau swung by. And he essentially just got told where the nearest market was.

An outsider with an entourage would provoke some level of curiosity, no? It’s not like tourism is a big thing in this era. You can coincidentally stumble upon the scene or something.

I’m not sure what to do to draw more attention, to be honest. It’s not like some random person asking to meet the village leadership is going to go down remotely well.

Oh, you could absolutely ask for an audience. It might not be granted immediately, but the Marans have many dealings with other territories, both allied and not.

[Joohan]

Honestly being hyper focused on one thing just seems like a recipe for failure to me. A diversified diet with acceptable production at each level of the food chain staves off starvation, and should ensure at least decent levels of nutritional intake. Just having a lot of food isn't going to immediately translate to having a complex society capable of political organization, material production, or technological advancement.

who's hyperfocused? I highly doubt even Old Kingdom Egypt, with a million people packed into a few miles around the Nile, could support an industrial civilization even with the technology to do so. There simply wouldnt be enough minds and enough muscle around.

And actually, having a lot of food is kinda instrumental to the development of political organizations. Whether that be high intensity hunting and gathering like in prehistoric Pacific Northwest and Florida, or agriculture, or aquaculture, etcetera, it all requires a rather massive surplus of food compared to most of human history. You're right that it doesn't immediately translate, but it's kinda a necessary first step.


There are many crops from the Americas who's calories per area and per hour of labor far outclass most Old World domesticates. That's important. Less people/less time involved in producing more food means more people/more time for doing other things.


You can make all the steel, steam engines, gunpowder, whatever, you want, but if 80% of the population is still dedicating the vast majority of their lives to supporting the basic needs of the rest of society, there are so many thousands, hundreds of thousands, even millions of people who will likely live and die without contributing their creativity and minds to a different section of society.

You should be careful about going to America. Like, even when mankind was fairly advanced and Europeans attempted to colonize the new world, most of those settlements went under - and quite a few just got straight up destroyed.

You are operating off of not even that base and far less technology. Odds of you dying are like... * furiously calculates on abacus *...not good fam.

[UniversalCommons]

I thought this was interesting. It is about the chemical abilities of Egypt. It might be fairly close in some ways to the things which I am trying to do.
https://justonly.com/chemistry/chem201/ ... araohs.pdf

[UniversalCommons]

Basically two ships would have gone into the black sea looking for trade after paying for passage from Troy. They would have followed the coast line looking for places to trade. Eventually they would have made it to Novorossiysk. They would have initially stopped at the trading post at Varna and would probably go back there for supplies. Basically, it would have been a high risk venture like the attempt to go to Ur where all of them could die. Two of the crew would be picked hands of Oak, basically the best soldiers or merchants they could find to report back. They would be looking for trade items, new technology, men with unusual skills, etc. They would have probably had to hire a translator or two. Tea, cabbage, any plant good that was unique which they could grow themselves would be desired.

[Cainesland]

Basically two ships would have gone into the black sea looking for trade after paying for passage from Troy. They would have followed the coast line looking for places to trade. Eventually they would have made it to Novorossiysk. They would have initially stopped at the trading post at Varna and would probably go back there for supplies. Basically, it would have been a high risk venture like the attempt to go to Ur where all of them could die. Two of the crew would be picked hands of Oak, basically the best soldiers or merchants they could find to report back. They would be looking for trade items, new technology, men with unusual skills, etc. They would have probably had to hire a translator or two. Tea, cabbage, any plant good that was unique which they could grow themselves would be desired.

Thank you, United.

[Reatra]

You should be careful about going to America. Like, even when mankind was fairly advanced and Europeans attempted to colonize the new world, most of those settlements went under - and quite a few just got straight up destroyed.

You are operating off of not even that base and far less technology. Odds of you dying are like... * furiously calculates on abacus *...not good fam.

Wait I’m confused..? are you saying like, the odds of anyone dying are higher in the Americas than the Old World?

What’s the evidence for that? That seems...... really ahistorical...

If you’re saying because early European settler colonies failed, all that means is that the native people had enough means to resist it during the early years.

[Joohan]

You should be careful about going to America. Like, even when mankind was fairly advanced and Europeans attempted to colonize the new world, most of those settlements went under - and quite a few just got straight up destroyed.

You are operating off of not even that base and far less technology. Odds of you dying are like... * furiously calculates on abacus *...not good fam.

Wait I’m confused..? are you saying like, the odds of anyone dying are higher in the Americas than the Old World?

What’s the evidence for that? That seems...... really ahistorical...

If you’re saying because early European settler colonies failed, all that means is that the native people had enough means to resist it during the early years.

You're not traveling to the new world all on your own, are you? I would assume you were going to bring over some kind of party to help colonize with you.

And most settlements went down because the colonials were unfamiliar with the terrain, flaura, fauna and unable to adapt.

[Reatra]

Wait I’m confused..? are you saying like, the odds of anyone dying are higher in the Americas than the Old World?

What’s the evidence for that? That seems...... really ahistorical...

If you’re saying because early European settler colonies failed, all that means is that the native people had enough means to resist it during the early years.

You're not traveling to the new world all on your own, are you? I would assume you were going to bring over some kind of party to help colonize with you.

And most settlements went down because the colonials were unfamiliar with the terrain, flaura, fauna and unable to adapt.

It's not to colonize, it's following the already existent trade routes down south to better climates. It's basically the same thing as if I went down south to China via the existent trade routes.

And if there's one place I'm familiar with, it's Western North America

[Joohan]

You're not traveling to the new world all on your own, are you? I would assume you were going to bring over some kind of party to help colonize with you.

And most settlements went down because the colonials were unfamiliar with the terrain, flaura, fauna and unable to adapt.

It's not to colonize, it's following the already existent trade routes down south to better climates. It's basically the same thing as if I went down south to China via the existent trade routes.

And if there's one place I'm familiar with, it's Western North America

I mean, 2019 California that is...

You'll have to book it to. I don't see how you might survive a winter in either Siberia, Alaska, or northern Canada.

[Reatra]

It's not to colonize, it's following the already existent trade routes down south to better climates. It's basically the same thing as if I went down south to China via the existent trade routes.

And if there's one place I'm familiar with, it's Western North America

I mean, 2019 California that is...

You'll have to book it to. I don't see how you might survive a winter in either Siberia, Alaska, or northern Canada.

Me neither! I agree, luckily even a relatively leisurely pace would allow someone to reach the more moderate parts of southern British Columbia within six-to-seven month or so, which is just in time for winter in a spot that's more manageable.

Of course, being on the coast does make the climate more mild, fortunately, and allows for good fishing (that region has realllly fertile waters) which is the same reason that region was able to house a far greater population density than might otherwise be expected.


All this is to say, don't worry too hard, the only reason I would want to move to this region is I know it and its history well.

And there is the fact that North America (or at least Western North America, as that's the only spot I've studied) was in a much warmer era at that time, a couple centuries back it was far wetter, but still rather warm compared to most of the Holocene since.

[Ralnis]

I'm willing to actually go help colonize America if Ur doesn't come through.

[Reatra]

I'm willing to actually go help colonize America if Ur doesn't come through.

no one is colonizing lol

[Ralnis]

I'm willing to actually go help colonize America if Ur doesn't come through.

no one is colonizing lol

Ok, travel and setup in the New World.

[Reatra]

the main reason I'm so adamant about California in this RP is because 3000 BCE (when all of the New Civ RPs have begun) is a really convenient time in California. 5000 BP is the very beginning of the a new period in California, in the Central Valley, the Bay Area, and on the Chumash Coast, which are the three areas with the highest population density in California, there are great shifts in cultivation and resource exploitation. In the Bay this primarily means intensification of acorn use, in the Valley there is increase in acorn usage but also major cultivation of wetlands, and on the Chumash coast a greater amount of sea exploitation.

So clearly almost everyone was looking for new sources of food. Makes sense, as the climate was drying and the rivers and wetlands became the main source of water, not rain.

Additionally, this era saw a marked increase in interpersonal violence, warfare, and diseases brought on by scarcity in archaeological records. So, agriculture, or any other sort of food security, would definitely be accepted.

So then why didn't native Californians invent agriculture in this time?

Well, firstly oak trees are much more drought tolerant than the vast majority of other potentially edible herbs, but that's not the primary reason.


California doesn't have any founder crops. It has greatly useful plants, but nothing that is obvious and convenient enough to make a founder crop for the invention of agriculture. Same reason that agriculture didn't occur in Australia, or Europe, despite both places having native plants that were EVENTUALLY domesticated, agriculture had to be introduced to these places.


So, then, bringing sunroots down from the PNW, sunflower and amaranth horticulture, and eventually importing maize and making more intensive farms, will bring it.

EDIT: additionally, the reason California had such food security issues is the population was so large due to the ability to coax such massive amounts of resources from the country, while of course the population can't compare to anything like Egypt or Mesoamerica or the Indus Valley, it is definitely one of the more populous regions on Earth, with probably something around ~150,000 people around this time which, considering Old Kingdom Egypt had one million people, is a lot!

So a lot of people suffering from resource shortages and drying weather and subsequent political and social turmoil, suddenly a group of people are provided a stable source of food and (ideally) a drive for political peace in their region, that's a good way to start a formative confederation of tribes!


In a quarter century or so it would be nice to have a fully fledged "Peoples Confederation of Nations" uniting much of the populous parts of California. It wouldn't be centralized, but at least at peace.

[Joohan]

ill have my post up in a bit

[Hanafuridake]

ill have my post up in a bit

[Joohan]

ill have my post up in a bit

... That was pretty savage

[Joohan]

My friend asked me to come over, and I told him I had to work on an RP post first. After 20 minutes he called me back, asking if I was done yet. I had to explain to him how posts on New Civilizations were less of a " let me knock this out real quick, " kind of thing, and more of a, " ferb, I know what we're doing today, " kind of thing.

[Joohan]

I've edited the Imperium's territory to more of what G had in mind.

Keep in mind y'all, that most of the Imperium is located along the Elbe and Danube. The Hinterlands ( i.e. most of the land located within the Imperium ) is still wild and uncontrolled.

[Hanafuridake]

[G-Tech Corporation]

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Actually, next post is just going to be internal politicking