You're not preaching to anyone here, you can drop the goofy rhetoric.
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by Telconi » Fri May 17, 2019 4:43 pm
by Duhon » Fri May 17, 2019 4:43 pm
Soldati Senza Confini wrote:Fartsniffage wrote:
I didn't say worst ever. I said a new low. That takes into account the changes in society and morality.
Most of the worst ever are seen so due to current societal beliefs, Trump is modern and is still falling far short of them. A new low.
If you are going to go with "but social and moral context matters", then William G Harding wins hands down as having an even more corrupt administration than Trump, even if more personable.
by Fartsniffage » Fri May 17, 2019 4:44 pm
Soldati Senza Confini wrote:Fartsniffage wrote:
I didn't say worst ever. I said a new low. That takes into account the changes in society and morality.
Most of the worst ever are seen so due to current societal beliefs, Trump is modern and is still falling far short of them. A new low.
If you are going to go with "but social and moral context matters", then William G Harding wins hands down as having an even more corrupt administration than Trump, even if more personable.
by Telconi » Fri May 17, 2019 4:45 pm
Soldati Senza Confini wrote:Duhon wrote:
There are sides and then there is Trump.
Can you at least describe something that Trump has done that makes him so big and horrible other than shooting himself in the foot constantly with stupid policies and half-baked excuses for his moral failures that makes him as bad as both sides combined?
by Soldati Senza Confini » Fri May 17, 2019 4:46 pm
Duhon wrote:Soldati Senza Confini wrote:
If you are going to go with "but social and moral context matters", then William G Harding wins hands down as having an even more corrupt administration than Trump, even if more personable.
Harding was not himself a corrupt person, though he did put into positions of power those who are. Trump is not Harding; Trump is worse.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.
by Soldati Senza Confini » Fri May 17, 2019 4:47 pm
Fartsniffage wrote:Soldati Senza Confini wrote:
If you are going to go with "but social and moral context matters", then William G Harding wins hands down as having an even more corrupt administration than Trump, even if more personable.
You say with the benefit of hindsight. I'll bet that hindsight with this president will have him right up there.
But either way, my original point is sound. I'll accept changing it to out of nearly 50 presidents Donald Trump is the the second lowest moment in American political history.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.
by Thuzbekistan » Fri May 17, 2019 4:51 pm
by Shrillland » Fri May 17, 2019 4:53 pm
Telconi wrote:Soldati Senza Confini wrote:
Can you at least describe something that Trump has done that makes him so big and horrible other than shooting himself in the foot constantly with stupid policies and half-baked excuses for his moral failures that makes him as bad as both sides combined?
He existed whilst disagreeing with Duhon...
by Soldati Senza Confini » Fri May 17, 2019 5:01 pm
Shrillland wrote:Telconi wrote:
He existed whilst disagreeing with Duhon...
Well, his family separation policy(and it is his, not Obama's) has led to children being put in dog kennels, his rhetoric combined with indifference has led to marked increases in white supremacy-based violence, and his arrogance towards the idea of separation of powers is worse than all but two previous presidents(Jackson and Lincoln). I don't deny that his policies are a logical consequence of decades of political movement, but he is fairly unique in how he has attempted to carry them out and in his open hostility to those who disagree with him on a personal level.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.
by Telconi » Fri May 17, 2019 5:05 pm
Shrillland wrote:Telconi wrote:
He existed whilst disagreeing with Duhon...
Well, his family separation policy(and it is his, not Obama's) has led to children being put in dog kennels, his rhetoric combined with indifference has led to marked increases in white supremacy-based violence, and his arrogance towards the idea of separation of powers is worse than all but two previous presidents(Jackson and Lincoln). I don't deny that his policies are a logical consequence of decades of political movement, but he is fairly unique in how he has attempted to carry them out and in his open hostility to those who disagree with him on a personal level.
by Chan Island » Fri May 17, 2019 5:10 pm
Soldati Senza Confini wrote:Duhon wrote:
There are sides and then there is Trump.
Can you at least describe something that Trump has done that makes him so big and horrible other than shooting himself in the foot constantly with stupid policies and half-baked excuses for his moral failures that makes him as bad as both sides combined?
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.
by Cekoviu » Fri May 17, 2019 5:16 pm
Chan Island wrote:Soldati Senza Confini wrote:
Can you at least describe something that Trump has done that makes him so big and horrible other than shooting himself in the foot constantly with stupid policies and half-baked excuses for his moral failures that makes him as bad as both sides combined?
There are 2 really big ones.
1) Instituted a policy of seperating children from their parents at the border. The paper trail of thousands of them has been lost, and they live in metal cages and are made to do what has been described as slave labour. A completely vindictive, unnecessary and deeply unjust policy that can only be compared to something as vast as internments in ww2 or mistreatment of native people's in the 19th century.
2) He vetoed a bipartisan bill popular with both sides to stop selling weapons to Saudi Arabia, who are using American weapons to perpetrate what the UN calls a genocide in Yemen. American weapons keep cropping up stories about the Saudis deliberately targeting civilian buildings like schools, hospitals and a port where about a quarter of the nation's food imports go through, causing mass famine.
This isn't mere aiding of genocide because zeitgeist or politics- he personally took it upon himself to veto a measure that's even popular among his own voters, approved by this bitterly divided Congress, that would have seriously dented the capacity of the perpetrator of genocide and famine to do so.
Those 2 are the truely, uniquely terrible things that he has done off the top of my head.
by Ifreann » Fri May 17, 2019 5:18 pm
Duhon wrote:Thuzbekistan wrote:But shouldnt the goal be to elect a better president rather than one with (D)?
I sincerely doubt any of the tweleventyzillion candidates now running to become the Democratic nominee could be worse than Trump (or Pence for that matter). Hell, even Bill Weld is guaranteed to be a better president than Trump is, simply by not being Trump.
by Duhon » Fri May 17, 2019 5:26 pm
by Chan Island » Fri May 17, 2019 5:28 pm
Cekoviu wrote:Chan Island wrote:
There are 2 really big ones.
1) Instituted a policy of seperating children from their parents at the border. The paper trail of thousands of them has been lost, and they live in metal cages and are made to do what has been described as slave labour. A completely vindictive, unnecessary and deeply unjust policy that can only be compared to something as vast as internments in ww2 or mistreatment of native people's in the 19th century.
Playing devil's advocate here, though I don't like Trump - as far as I know, this policy was not instituted by Trump or his administration. It was already present.2) He vetoed a bipartisan bill popular with both sides to stop selling weapons to Saudi Arabia, who are using American weapons to perpetrate what the UN calls a genocide in Yemen. American weapons keep cropping up stories about the Saudis deliberately targeting civilian buildings like schools, hospitals and a port where about a quarter of the nation's food imports go through, causing mass famine.
This isn't mere aiding of genocide because zeitgeist or politics- he personally took it upon himself to veto a measure that's even popular among his own voters, approved by this bitterly divided Congress, that would have seriously dented the capacity of the perpetrator of genocide and famine to do so.
Those 2 are the truely, uniquely terrible things that he has done off the top of my head.
Yeah, that one is a huge issue.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.
by Shrillland » Fri May 17, 2019 5:34 pm
Cekoviu wrote:Chan Island wrote:
There are 2 really big ones.
1) Instituted a policy of seperating children from their parents at the border. The paper trail of thousands of them has been lost, and they live in metal cages and are made to do what has been described as slave labour. A completely vindictive, unnecessary and deeply unjust policy that can only be compared to something as vast as internments in ww2 or mistreatment of native people's in the 19th century.
Playing devil's advocate here, though I don't like Trump - as far as I know, this policy was not instituted by Trump or his administration. It was already present.
by Telconi » Fri May 17, 2019 5:35 pm
by Telconi » Fri May 17, 2019 5:40 pm
by Duhon » Fri May 17, 2019 5:45 pm
by Telconi » Fri May 17, 2019 5:49 pm
Duhon wrote:Telconi wrote:
Of course not, but being a liar is bad to people who aren't me as well.
You go on as if every politician would do the things Trump does if any of them were in Trump's position. So what would it matter if I marshal reams of truth? You'll just dismiss them -- and besides, Shrill and Chan have made headway on Trump being, well, abnormal.
by Chan Island » Fri May 17, 2019 5:51 pm
Telconi wrote:Duhon wrote:
You go on as if every politician would do the things Trump does if any of them were in Trump's position. So what would it matter if I marshal reams of truth? You'll just dismiss them -- and besides, Shrill and Chan have made headway on Trump being, well, abnormal.
They've made headway on him being crappy, but a president being crappy is far from abnormal.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.
by Duhon » Fri May 17, 2019 5:53 pm
Telconi wrote:Duhon wrote:
You go on as if every politician would do the things Trump does if any of them were in Trump's position. So what would it matter if I marshal reams of truth? You'll just dismiss them -- and besides, Shrill and Chan have made headway on Trump being, well, abnormal.
They've made headway on him being crappy, but a president being crappy is far from abnormal.
by Thuzbekistan » Fri May 17, 2019 5:55 pm
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