LWDT 7: The Earth and Heavens Tremble.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

And the majority of Germans were busy paying taxes, going on vacation and listening to speeches, rather than working in the death camps.

I get what you're doing, but comparing Christians to Nazis, really?

It's not even that good a comparison, since genocide was a core part of Nazi rule and ideology whereas the violence in medieval and renaissance Europe was mostly a byproduct of squabbling powers.

[Joohan]

... I don't think you're getting the point. You can point to all the instances of violence within the Christian world over the last 1500 years - but that doesn't prove anything. Pointing towards the extraordinary actions of a group like the peoples crusade is in no way indicative of how the common man or clergyman lived his life. The overhwhelming majority of the Christian world was more involved with paying their tithes, going on pilgramage, and attending mass, rather than burning witches or pogroms.

And the majority of Germans were busy paying taxes, going on vacation and listening to speeches, rather than working in the death camps.

… Are you trying to claim that Germans are a genocidal people because of the deeds of an extremist minority? Because Nazis were a thing, Germans are, on the whole, warmongering despots?

Is that the hill you wanna die on?

[Kowani]

And the majority of Germans were busy paying taxes, going on vacation and listening to speeches, rather than working in the death camps.

I get what you're doing, but comparing Christians to Nazis, really?

It's not even that good a comparison, since genocide was a core part of Nazi rule and ideology whereas the violence in medieval and renaissance Europe was mostly a byproduct of squabbling powers.

Only parts of it. The attacks on the Hussites was very much a religious thing, as was the repression of (going even farther back) Arians and Gnostics. Now, it is true that the situations are not quite the same, since, as you said, core part of Nazi rule. But that was my original point, that Christianity won because often, its followers broke its own rules.

[Joohan]

I get what you're doing, but comparing Christians to Nazis, really?

It's not even that good a comparison, since genocide was a core part of Nazi rule and ideology whereas the violence in medieval and renaissance Europe was mostly a byproduct of squabbling powers.

Only parts of it. The attacks on the Hussites was very much a religious thing, as was the repression of (going even farther back) Arians and Gnostics. Now, it is true that the situations are not quite the same, since, as you said, core part of Nazi rule. But that was my original point, that Christianity won because often, its followers broke its own rules.

War is permissible in Christianity, assuming that it can meet perquisites of the Just War Theory. That Christian states have fought in wars before does not mean that they have necessarily sinned and or broken God's laws.


Regardless though, that was not the point being made to begin with.

[North German Realm]

Christianity was pretty much consistently violent (against other Christians and against non-Christians) anywhere it was in power. I mean, sure there was almost always a second, generally materialistic reason for that violence, but to say it wasn't consistently violent is a bit ahistorical.

Christianity is a religion, it cannot be violent to others in itself. You would do better to say that many Christian rulers were violent. Saying otherwise falsely implies that religion was the main cause of violence, when it is almost always secular in nature (albeit sometimes abetted by the Church). There are exceptions of course, the forced conversion of the Saxons by Charlemagne seems to be primarily religious in nature. The repression of the Cathars was also largely religious, however most violence was carried out by Northern Dukes intent on claiming large swathes of land.

I understand what you're trying to say, but I'm of no habit to blame the religious rather than the religion for consistent violence. And I did mention a great deal of the acts of violence did have secondary (often materialistic) reasons, but that doesn't take the blame away from the religious and their religion. At least in my personal opinion.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

Only parts of it. The attacks on the Hussites was very much a religious thing, as was the repression of (going even farther back) Arians and Gnostics. Now, it is true that the situations are not quite the same, since, as you said, core part of Nazi rule. But that was my original point, that Christianity won because often, its followers broke its own rules.

The execution of Jan Hus was because his preaching threatened the power of the Church and kings of Bohemia, the attacks on the Hussites occurred because they revolted and started expelling Catholics. Sure, the conflict was religious in nature, but the fighting occurred for much more prosaic reasons.

[Kowani]

And the majority of Germans were busy paying taxes, going on vacation and listening to speeches, rather than working in the death camps.

… Are you trying to claim that Germans are a genocidal people because of the deeds of an extremist minority? Because Nazis were a thing, Germans are, on the whole, warmongering despots?

Is that the hill you wanna die on?

Did I say that either group is that today?

Only parts of it. The attacks on the Hussites was very much a religious thing, as was the repression of (going even farther back) Arians and Gnostics. Now, it is true that the situations are not quite the same, since, as you said, core part of Nazi rule. But that was my original point, that Christianity won because often, its followers broke its own rules.

War is permissible in Christianity, assuming that it can meet perquisites of the Just War Theory. That Christian states have fought in wars before does not mean that they have necessarily sinned and or broken God's laws.

How many “Just Wars” have there been? The first Crusade? WWII? Conquering the Aztecs? Pushback of the Mongols? Wow, 4.

Regardless though, that was not the point being made to begin with.

While pointing out the fact that it’s on the decline, and it only won the competition because it’s adherents broke the rules.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

I understand what you're trying to say, but I'm of no habit to blame the religious rather than the religion for consistent violence. And I did mention a great deal of the acts of violence did have secondary (often materialistic) reasons, but that doesn't take the blame away from the religious and their religion. At least in my personal opinion.

I understand, but disagree. Secular materialistic reasons are not secondary, they're integral to why acts of violence happen. After all, violence occurs in societies of all kinds of religion or disbelief. By blaming religion first, you are forced to the nonsensical conclusion that all violence is from religious belief (or lack of it), otherwise you're applying a non-consistent standard that can pick and choose whatever things you don't like.

Ultimately, I think material reasons that apply regardless of religion (such as power struggles, conflict over resources, etc) are a much better culprit than vague qualities attributed to a single religion.

[Joohan]

… Are you trying to claim that Germans are a genocidal people because of the deeds of an extremist minority? Because Nazis were a thing, Germans are, on the whole, warmongering despots?

Is that the hill you wanna die on?

Did I say that either group is that today?

War is permissible in Christianity, assuming that it can meet perquisites of the Just War Theory. That Christian states have fought in wars before does not mean that they have necessarily sinned and or broken God's laws.

How many “Just Wars” have there been? The first Crusade? WWII? Conquering the Aztecs? Pushback of the Mongols? Wow, 4.

Regardless though, that was not the point being made to begin with.

While pointing out the fact that it’s on the decline, and it only won the competition because it’s adherents broke the rules.

You compared the history of Christendom to Nazis in Germany.

I don't know how many just wars there have been - I've not kept a list. But hundreds wouldn't be an understatement. From the Romans defense against the Huns, the Briton's war against Viking invasions, or the Great Turkish war. There have been hundreds of wars which could, and have fallen under the just war theory.

And the point being made was that Christianity had won the game - they were the faith which molded the modern world.

[Painisia]

I think many Commies (including libertarian and utopian socialists) here in the LWDT view Nicolae Ceausescu as the biggest revisionist in the left-wing universe. He basically went turbo-fascist after he paid a visit to Kim Il-sung in 1971 and made Romania look like another Hoxhaist utopia.

The difference between Kim`s Juche and Eastern European Communism is that he implemented religious ideas (a divine leader) and militaristic nationalism into his ideological hotpot.

[Cekoviu]

I think many Commies (including libertarian and utopian socialists) here in the LWDT view Nicolae Ceausescu as the biggest revisionist in the left-wing universe. He basically went turbo-fascist after he paid a visit to Kim Il-sung in 1971 and made Romania look like another Hoxhaist utopia.

The difference between Kim`s Juche and Eastern European Communism is that he implemented religious ideas (a divine leader) and militaristic nationalism into his ideological hotpot.

>Hoxhaist
>utopia

[Painisia]

I think many Commies (including libertarian and utopian socialists) here in the LWDT view Nicolae Ceausescu as the biggest revisionist in the left-wing universe. He basically went turbo-fascist after he paid a visit to Kim Il-sung in 1971 and made Romania look like another Hoxhaist utopia.

The difference between Kim`s Juche and Eastern European Communism is that he implemented religious ideas (a divine leader) and militaristic nationalism into his ideological hotpot.

>Hoxhaist
>utopia

I meant the ideal Hoxhaist state. Not a Six Flags Fun Paradise

[First American Empire]

I don’t deny that it’ll undergo evolutions, but I doubt it’ll die. Most people aren’t inclined to give up their rights.
Yes, but you said “our faith.” To put that in perspective, it’s as if a Muslim has said the exact same thing. Just because it grew out of Judaism doesn’t make it as old as Judaism. And in terms of persecution, the only entity that could possibly have wiped out Christianity was the Roman Empire. That doesn’t mean that Christians weren’t persecuted, but the actual religion was never in danger.

…Not really? Once Christians became the dominant power within Rome, they treated the pagans about the same way they had been. In the medieval era, it was the papacy and the constant search for heretics that plunged the Church into blood. In the Age of Empire, well.
The idea that Christianity won out because of the correctness of its doctrine is ahistorical. Heck, the idea that for the majority of its time, Christianity was peaceful isn’t entirely true, either.

This. Christianity only won out because the Roman Empire forced its people to convert at swordpoint. (Which, as a Pagan, I am still really angry about.) Christianity can't maintain its position of religious dominance without coercion, and its decline in much of the world is proof of that.

[Loben The 2nd]

…Not really? Once Christians became the dominant power within Rome, they treated the pagans about the same way they had been. In the medieval era, it was the papacy and the constant search for heretics that plunged the Church into blood. In the Age of Empire, well.
The idea that Christianity won out because of the correctness of its doctrine is ahistorical. Heck, the idea that for the majority of its time, Christianity was peaceful isn’t entirely true, either.

This. Christianity only won out because the Roman Empire forced its people to convert at swordpoint. (Which, as a Pagan, I am still really angry about.) Christianity can't maintain its position of religious dominance without coercion, and its decline in much of the world is proof of that.

Wow. A pagan.

Was never fond of putting effort into faith were you?

[Washington Resistance Army]

This. Christianity only won out because the Roman Empire forced its people to convert at swordpoint. (Which, as a Pagan, I am still really angry about.) Christianity can't maintain its position of religious dominance without coercion, and its decline in much of the world is proof of that.

Wow. A pagan.

Was never fond of putting effort into faith were you?

Amusingly enough every pagan I know puts far more effort into their faith than most every Christian I've met.

[Loben The 2nd]

Wow. A pagan.

Was never fond of putting effort into faith were you?

Amusingly enough every pagan I know puts far more effort into their faith than most every Christian I've met.

Perhaps you could expand your search in an area wider then “cultural Christians”

[Washington Resistance Army]

Amusingly enough every pagan I know puts far more effort into their faith than most every Christian I've met.

Perhaps you could expand your search in an area wider then “cultural Christians”

Don't think I would need to, I have a pretty decent sample size already. There's a good 5-6 churches of various denominations (and a Mosque of some really obscure sect of Islam) in a 20 minute radius of my house.

It's actually kinda weird how many religious places are nearby tbh.

[Loben The 2nd]

Perhaps you could expand your search in an area wider then “cultural Christians”

Don't think I would need to, I have a pretty decent sample size already. There's a good 5-6 churches of various denominations (and a Mosque of some really obscure sect of Islam) in a 20 minute radius of my house.

It's actually kinda weird how many religious places are nearby tbh.

Eh, most pagans I’ve met are pagans because they are spiritually lazy, and are genuinely terrible people who are still ass mad over being treated like a turd being waffle stomped down a shower drain.

[Cekoviu]

Don't think I would need to, I have a pretty decent sample size already. There's a good 5-6 churches of various denominations (and a Mosque of some really obscure sect of Islam) in a 20 minute radius of my house.

It's actually kinda weird how many religious places are nearby tbh.

Eh, most pagans I’ve met are pagans because they are spiritually lazy, and are genuinely terrible people who are still ass mad over being treated like a turd being waffle stomped down a shower drain.

I take it you're fond of pagans.

[Loben The 2nd]

Eh, most pagans I’ve met are pagans because they are spiritually lazy, and are genuinely terrible people who are still ass mad over being treated like a turd being waffle stomped down a shower drain.

I take it you're fond of pagans.

Sarcasm I know but the exact opposite of fondness. A disdain, borderline immediate dismal attitude of them.

[Cekoviu]

I take it you're fond of pagans.

Sarcasm I know but the exact opposite of fondness. A disdain, borderline immediate dismal attitude of them.

No way. You?

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Certainly. And of course, i'm viewing this from the standpoint of dialectics. The end goal being "true communism", but market socialism is a very solid system.

Of course, market socialists don't agree among themselves. Ehere [typo edit: There] are many completing approaches to market socialism. Personally, I see little difference between many proposals for market socialism and social democracy.

[First American Empire]

Personally, I see little difference between many proposals for market socialism and social democracy.

Me neither, which is why I like a lot of market socialist proposals even though I'm a social democrat.

[Reploid Productions]

Was never fond of putting effort into faith were you?

Eh, most pagans I’ve met are pagans because they are spiritually lazy, and are genuinely terrible people who are still ass mad over being treated like a turd being waffle stomped down a shower drain.

Given your history, recent account deletion, and apparent steadfast refusal to adjust your conduct to fit within the site rules, we're skipping the nice-nice.

*** Loben, 7-day ban for trolling/flamebaiting. ***

You've already been erroneously presumed to be Delete-On-Sight by folks, and if you don't self-regulate your conduct, that's going to end up coming true.


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

[Torrocca]

I think many Commies (including libertarian and utopian socialists) here in the LWDT view Nicolae Ceausescu as the biggest revisionist in the left-wing universe. He basically went turbo-fascist after he paid a visit to Kim Il-sung in 1971 and made Romania look like another Hoxhaist utopia.

The difference between Kim`s Juche and Eastern European Communism is that he implemented religious ideas (a divine leader) and militaristic nationalism into his ideological hotpot.

>Hoxhaist
>utopia

>bunkers
>not the utopian dream

I'll fight you from my well-fortified concrete defensive position! >:c