LWDT 7: The Earth and Heavens Tremble.

[Joohan]

The ideas and institutions of man will fade, but God will not. I could care less about someone's regarding of liberalism, what is important is that each person keeps the lord in their lives daily.

What Cekoviu said. Also, what of the Lord in one's daily prayers if human ideas and human instituions intensify rather than ameliorate his daily sufferings?

… please re word this.

[Joohan]

Help them. If they chose to be beyond help though, their apathy should in no way affect how society conducts itself.

If they choose to be "beyond help" should they be left alone or helped by force?

Depends. If they are just bing anti-social recluses than leave them be - but if they are going out of their way to be dangers or nuisances to the public than they should dealt with by the law like they are now.

[Duhon]

What Cekoviu said. Also, what of the Lord in one's daily prayers if human ideas and human instituions intensify rather than ameliorate his daily sufferings?

… please re word this.

What I'm saying is that the ideas and institutions of man haven't faded yet. While he has yet to leave this earth, why subject him to needless suffering? Because it might make him holy? Because it might cause him to turn his visage upward towards God in his heaven? Because he might desire to go heavenward and leave things as they are on this plane, instead of doing his utmost to lessen the pale of suffering even if by a little?

[Joohan]

… please re word this.

What I'm saying is that the ideas and institutions of man haven't faded yet. While he has yet to leave this earth, why subject him to needless suffering? Because it might make him holy? Because it might cause him to turn his visage upward towards God in his heaven? Because he might desire to go heavenward and leave things as they are on this plane, instead of doing his utmost to lessen the pale of suffering even if by a little?

That is a strawman's position, not my own.

There are literally tens of thousands ideas of man made institutions which have disappeared and been wiped from history. Loyalty to fading and flawed institutions is ridiculous when comparing to subservience to the commands of the Lord ( something eternal and not subject to our own entropy ). Forget human rights and democracy - they'll have a different definition 50 years from now. And in 500 years the world will have some new governing system which will look back upon these ideas as draconian and barbaric. But the commandments of the Lord will have not changed - having weathered the test of time since very nearly the beginning of our history. That is because man is a material being, and so the Lord gave him rules of how to live in a material world. If man lives by these rules, then he will be beyond suffering and grace will be his reward.

I don't know why you would assume the purpose of the Lord's testament is to cause suffering, rather than to move past it.

[Kowani]

What I'm saying is that the ideas and institutions of man haven't faded yet. While he has yet to leave this earth, why subject him to needless suffering? Because it might make him holy? Because it might cause him to turn his visage upward towards God in his heaven? Because he might desire to go heavenward and leave things as they are on this plane, instead of doing his utmost to lessen the pale of suffering even if by a little?

That is a strawman's position, not my own.

There are literally tens of thousands ideas of man made institutions which have disappeared and been wiped from history. Loyalty to fading and flawed institutions is ridiculous when comparing to subservience to the commands of the Lord ( something eternal and not subject to our own entropy ). Forget human rights and democracy - they'll have a different definition 50 years from now. And in 500 years the world will have some new governing system which will look back upon these ideas as draconian and barbaric. But the commandments of the Lord will have not changed - having weathered the test of time since very nearly the beginning of our history. That is because man is a material being, and so the Lord gave him rules of how to live in a material world. If man lives by these rules, then he will be beyond suffering and grace will be his reward.

I don't know why you would assume the purpose of the Lord's testament is to cause suffering, rather than to move past it.

Because no religion has ever died out throughout history…

[Joohan]

That is a strawman's position, not my own.

There are literally tens of thousands ideas of man made institutions which have disappeared and been wiped from history. Loyalty to fading and flawed institutions is ridiculous when comparing to subservience to the commands of the Lord ( something eternal and not subject to our own entropy ). Forget human rights and democracy - they'll have a different definition 50 years from now. And in 500 years the world will have some new governing system which will look back upon these ideas as draconian and barbaric. But the commandments of the Lord will have not changed - having weathered the test of time since very nearly the beginning of our history. That is because man is a material being, and so the Lord gave him rules of how to live in a material world. If man lives by these rules, then he will be beyond suffering and grace will be his reward.

I don't know why you would assume the purpose of the Lord's testament is to cause suffering, rather than to move past it.

Because no religion has ever died out throughout history…

Im not a hellenist - nor am I advocating for hellenism.

[Kowani]

Because no religion has ever died out throughout history…

Im not a hellenist - nor am I advocating for hellenism.

And yet they (and every other believer in a dead religion) believed their commandments to be eternal. What makes you think yours will be any different?

[Joohan]

Im not a hellenist - nor am I advocating for hellenism.

And yet they (and every other believer in a dead religion) believed their commandments to be eternal. What makes you think yours will be any different?

Because it's been around since practically the start of civilization and has weathered a minimum of 3,500 years of history - shaping the very core concepts of how our society views the world and interacts with it.

What makes it different is that it's not some competing cult ( or ideology for that matter ) - it won the whole damn competition.

Edit: The Abrahamic faith existed since around the middle kingdom of ancient Egypt - Just think of everything that's happened since then, and it's still here.

[Duhon]

Ignoring the duration of Christendom or even Judaism for the time being (except to note that Judaism couldn't have been older than the general collapse or weakening of various Bronze Age polities around eastern Europe and the Middle East around 1100 BC), loyalty to apparently everlasting and divinely appointed institutions is... good and all, but they cannot provide for life on earth. They simply have not been capable of that. So long as heaven is viewed as an escape hatch for earthly miseries, so long as the only ecclesiastical response is an admonition to spiritual responsibility, it cannot be tenable for us who have to live here in the interim.

[Kowani]

And yet they (and every other believer in a dead religion) believed their commandments to be eternal. What makes you think yours will be any different?

Because it's been around since practically the start of civilization and has weathered a minimum of 3,500 years of history - shaping the very core concepts of how our society views the world and interacts with it.

What makes it different is that it's not some competing cult ( or ideology for that matter ) - it won the whole damn competition.

Edit: The Abrahamic faith existed since around the middle kingdom of ancient Egypt - Just think of everything that's happened since then, and it's still here.

While pointing out the fact that it’s on the decline, and it only won the competition because it’s adherents broke the rules.

[Joohan]

Ignoring the duration of Christendom or even Judaism for the time being (except to note that Judaism couldn't have been older than the general collapse or weakening of various Bronze Age polities around eastern Europe and the Middle East around 1100 BC), loyalty to apparently everlasting and divinely appointed institutions is... good and all, but they cannot provide for life on earth. They simply have not been capable of that. So long as heaven is viewed as an escape hatch for earthly miseries, so long as the only ecclesiastical response is an admonition to spiritual responsibility, it cannot be tenable for us who have to live here in the interim.

Judaism is thought by most historians ( religious and secular ) to be at least 3500 years old, likely older. It's been around since around the middle kingdom of Ancient Egypt.

What is more - loyalty to ideology cannot provide anything for life on Earth. It's in implementation of said ideas. In which case, there is about 3000 years of evidence saying that the Abrahamic faith ( counting Judaism which makes it 3000 years, the founding of the kingdom of Israel ), and the entire last 1500 years of European history that says it absolutely can provide for life on Earth.

The very point of the old and new testaments was how to live on the Earth: with love as the core tenate. Once the testaments were accepted by an individual, all those around them would prosper - Heaven is simply a by product of this enlightenment.

I believe it was the Greek Archdiosece that explained that Christianity is a material faith. Man was made in, and a part of the material world. Therefore, he should do all that he is able to provide for and support the world made for him by the Lord. Heaven is what occurs when we come into communion with God for our service.

[Joohan]

Because it's been around since practically the start of civilization and has weathered a minimum of 3,500 years of history - shaping the very core concepts of how our society views the world and interacts with it.

What makes it different is that it's not some competing cult ( or ideology for that matter ) - it won the whole damn competition.

Edit: The Abrahamic faith existed since around the middle kingdom of ancient Egypt - Just think of everything that's happened since then, and it's still here.

While pointing out the fact that it’s on the decline, and it only won the competition because it’s adherents broke the rules.

No it's not. The number of Christians is declining in Europe, on account of liberal materialism and low birth rates. The number of Christians across the globe though ( over 2.3 billion ) is still rising.

What rules?

[Kowani]

While pointing out the fact that it’s on the decline, and it only won the competition because it’s adherents broke the rules.

No it's not. The number of Christians is declining in Europe, on account of liberal materialism and low birth rates. The number of Christians across the globe though ( over 2.3 billion ) is still rising.

What rules?

The number of long term Christians in the US is dropping as well-the youth are less religious than ever before, and the most religious people are dying off. As for the rising numbers, you don’t think liberal materialism will come to Africa? ‘Cause if so, there’s a piece of architecture in NY for sale.

Oh, just the basic “don’t kill people,” the general “love your neighbor,” etc.

[Joohan]

No it's not. The number of Christians is declining in Europe, on account of liberal materialism and low birth rates. The number of Christians across the globe though ( over 2.3 billion ) is still rising.

What rules?

The number of long term Christians in the US is dropping as well-the youth are less religious than ever before, and the most religious people are dying off. As for the rising numbers, you don’t think liberal materialism will come to Africa? ‘Cause if so, there’s a piece of architecture in NY for sale.

Oh, just the basic “don’t kill people,” the general “love your neighbor,” etc.

I don't think liberal materialism will come to Africa, for a myriad reasons. Chief among them though, is that liberal materialism is something of distinct European origin, born from the enlightenment. It could be integrated into the system - as what has happened in parts of Asia, but never fully accepted like it has been in Europe or America. These trends, though sad, are not all that worrisome for me.

Our faith has been around since the first civilization and has survived everything that came after up until the present day. We've survived every rival faith, repressive empire, and antagonistic ideology for the last 3ish millennia. I'm not that worried.

There is a lot more nuance than that - but Christian society has abided by those rules for the most part. But, just remember, Jesus didn't ask the merchants to kindly leave the temple.

[Kowani]

The number of long term Christians in the US is dropping as well-the youth are less religious than ever before, and the most religious people are dying off. As for the rising numbers, you don’t think liberal materialism will come to Africa? ‘Cause if so, there’s a piece of architecture in NY for sale.

Oh, just the basic “don’t kill people,” the general “love your neighbor,” etc.

I don't think liberal materialism will come to Africa, for a myriad reasons. Chief among them though, is that liberal materialism is something of distinct European origin, born from the enlightenment. It could be integrated into the system - as what has happened in parts of Asia, but never fully accepted like it has been in Europe or America. These trends, though sad, are not all that worrisome for me.

Give it a century. Once you get past mass instability and poverty, along with lack of education? Yeah, no. You’ll see religion’s numbers drop. Enlightenment thinking has little to do with it, these trends are consistent with everywhere else.

Our faith has been around since the first civilization and has survived everything that came after up until the present day. We've survived every rival faith, repressive empire, and antagonistic ideology for the last 3ish millennia. I'm not that worried.

Said the Jews.

There is a lot more nuance than that - but Christian society has abided by those rules for the most part. But, just remember, Jesus didn't ask the merchants to kindly leave the temple.

Everyone who was forcibly converted or purged for heresy would like to disagree with you. The wars of Religion would like a word, while we’re here.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

Everyone who was forcibly converted or purged for heresy would like to disagree with you. The wars of Religion would like a word, while we’re here.

The wars of Religion are a bad example. In no way did the breaking up of Christianity into rival camps help Christianity. Likewise the violence and chaos unleashed by the wars of Religion led directly to the rise of Secularism and Absolutism, which provided some of the roots for the Enlightenment.

[Joohan]

I don't think liberal materialism will come to Africa, for a myriad reasons. Chief among them though, is that liberal materialism is something of distinct European origin, born from the enlightenment. It could be integrated into the system - as what has happened in parts of Asia, but never fully accepted like it has been in Europe or America. These trends, though sad, are not all that worrisome for me.

Give it a century. Once you get past mass instability and poverty, along with lack of education? Yeah, no. You’ll see religion’s numbers drop. Enlightenment thinking has little to do with it, these trends are consistent with everywhere else.

Our faith has been around since the first civilization and has survived everything that came after up until the present day. We've survived every rival faith, repressive empire, and antagonistic ideology for the last 3ish millennia. I'm not that worried.

Said the Jews.

There is a lot more nuance than that - but Christian society has abided by those rules for the most part. But, just remember, Jesus didn't ask the merchants to kindly leave the temple.

Everyone who was forcibly converted or purged for heresy would like to disagree with you. The wars of Religion would like a word, while we’re here.

In a century liberal democracy will be a relic of a bygone age. Already tensions are growing against it in the western world, what with the rise of anti-global populists; and the economic model for which it is dependent upon is too ecologically unstable. Not to mention that it is completely reliant upon third world and developing world nations to house and maintain the industries which otherwise would never be allowed in a liberalsociety ( could you imagine if western consumerism were to be supplied by only it's own domestic industries? The amount of pollution would be intolerable to our otherwise privileged society ). Liberalism will fade by the end of the century, just as communism did at the end of the 20th century, and absolute monarchism did by the end of the 19th.

Im not sure what you mean by the 2nd point. Christianity came out of Judaism - thus our history is in tandem.

For the most part. We've existed as the dominant political force In Europe and the America's for the last 1500 years - of course we are going to mess up sometimes. Again, Christian society has been pretty straight about following the general rules until relativly recently.

[Kowani]

Everyone who was forcibly converted or purged for heresy would like to disagree with you. The wars of Religion would like a word, while we’re here.

The wars of Religion are a bad example. In no way did the breaking up of Christianity into rival camps help Christianity. Likewise the violence and chaos unleashed by the wars of Religion led directly to the rise of Secularism and Absolutism, which provided some of the roots for the Enlightenment.

Oh, that wasn’t what I was trying to say with that example. That was merely to dispel the notion that “Christian society has abided by the rules for the most part.”

[Joohan]

The wars of Religion are a bad example. In no way did the breaking up of Christianity into rival camps help Christianity. Likewise the violence and chaos unleashed by the wars of Religion led directly to the rise of Secularism and Absolutism, which provided some of the roots for the Enlightenment.

Oh, that wasn’t what I was trying to say with that example. That was merely to dispel the notion that “Christian society has abided by the rules for the most part.”

What do you mean it hasn't? Because states have from time to time waged unjust wars, doesn't mean that the common man or the Church was all in all ungodly throughout most of Christendom's history.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

Oh, that wasn’t what I was trying to say with that example. That was merely to dispel the notion that “Christian society has abided by the rules for the most part.”

It's a useless statement frankly. The history of Christianity is far too broad to say that Christian society mostly has or hasn't abided by the rules. Christian societies include small 'communes', empires, petty fiefdoms, kingdoms, nations, etc.

[Kowani]

Give it a century. Once you get past mass instability and poverty, along with lack of education? Yeah, no. You’ll see religion’s numbers drop. Enlightenment thinking has little to do with it, these trends are consistent with everywhere else.
Said the Jews.

Everyone who was forcibly converted or purged for heresy would like to disagree with you. The wars of Religion would like a word, while we’re here.

In a century liberal democracy will be a relic of a bygone age. Already tensions are growing against it in the western world, what with the rise of anti-global populists; and the economic model for which it is dependent upon is too ecologically unstable. Not to mention that it is completely reliant upon third world and developing world nations to house and maintain the industries which otherwise would never be allowed in a liberalsociety ( could you imagine if western consumerism were to be supplied by only it's own domestic industries? The amount of pollution would be intolerable to our otherwise privileged society ). Liberalism will fade by the end of the century, just as communism did at the end of the 20th century, and absolute monarchism did by the end of the 19th.

I don’t deny that it’ll undergo evolutions, but I doubt it’ll die. Most people aren’t inclined to give up their rights.

Im not sure what you mean by the 2nd point. Christianity came out of Judaism - thus our history is in tandem.

Yes, but you said “our faith.” To put that in perspective, it’s as if a Muslim has said the exact same thing. Just because it grew out of Judaism doesn’t make it as old as Judaism. And in terms of persecution, the only entity that could possibly have wiped out Christianity was the Roman Empire. That doesn’t mean that Christians weren’t persecuted, but the actual religion was never in danger.

For the most part. We've existed as the dominant political force In Europe and the America's for the last 1500 years - of course we are going to mess up sometimes. Again, Christian society has been pretty straight about following the general rules until relativly recently.

…Not really? Once Christians became the dominant power within Rome, they treated the pagans about the same way they had been. In the medieval era, it was the papacy and the constant search for heretics that plunged the Church into blood. In the Age of Empire, well.
The idea that Christianity won out because of the correctness of its doctrine is ahistorical. Heck, the idea that for the majority of its time, Christianity was peaceful isn’t entirely true, either.

[North German Realm]

I don’t deny that it’ll undergo evolutions, but I doubt it’ll die. Most people aren’t inclined to give up their rights.
Yes, but you said “our faith.” To put that in perspective, it’s as if a Muslim has said the exact same thing. Just because it grew out of Judaism doesn’t make it as old as Judaism. And in terms of persecution, the only entity that could possibly have wiped out Christianity was the Roman Empire. That doesn’t mean that Christians weren’t persecuted, but the actual religion was never in danger.

…Not really? Once Christians became the dominant power within Rome, they treated the pagans about the same way they had been. In the medieval era, it was the papacy and the constant search for heretics that plunged the Church into blood. In the Age of Empire, well.
The idea that Christianity won out because of the correctness of its doctrine is ahistorical. Heck, the idea that for the majority of its time, Christianity was peaceful isn’t entirely true, either.

Christianity was pretty much consistently violent (against other Christians and against non-Christians) anywhere it was in power. I mean, sure there was almost always a second, generally materialistic reason for that violence, but to say it wasn't consistently violent is a bit ahistorical.

[Joohan]

I don’t deny that it’ll undergo evolutions, but I doubt it’ll die. Most people aren’t inclined to give up their rights.
Yes, but you said “our faith.” To put that in perspective, it’s as if a Muslim has said the exact same thing. Just because it grew out of Judaism doesn’t make it as old as Judaism. And in terms of persecution, the only entity that could possibly have wiped out Christianity was the Roman Empire. That doesn’t mean that Christians weren’t persecuted, but the actual religion was never in danger.

…Not really? Once Christians became the dominant power within Rome, they treated the pagans about the same way they had been. In the medieval era, it was the papacy and the constant search for heretics that plunged the Church into blood. In the Age of Empire, well.
The idea that Christianity won out because of the correctness of its doctrine is ahistorical. Heck, the idea that for the majority of its time, Christianity was peaceful isn’t entirely true, either.

... I don't think you're getting the point. You can point to all the instances of violence within the Christian world over the last 1500 years - but that doesn't prove anything. Pointing towards the extraordinary actions of a group like the peoples crusade is in no way indicative of how the common man or clergyman lived his life. The overhwhelming majority of the Christian world was more involved with paying their tithes, going on pilgramage, and attending mass, rather than burning witches or pogroms.

[Kowani]

…Not really? Once Christians became the dominant power within Rome, they treated the pagans about the same way they had been. In the medieval era, it was the papacy and the constant search for heretics that plunged the Church into blood. In the Age of Empire, well.
The idea that Christianity won out because of the correctness of its doctrine is ahistorical. Heck, the idea that for the majority of its time, Christianity was peaceful isn’t entirely true, either.

... I don't think you're getting the point. You can point to all the instances of violence within the Christian world over the last 1500 years - but that doesn't prove anything. Pointing towards the extraordinary actions of a group like the peoples crusade is in no way indicative of how the common man or clergyman lived his life. The overhwhelming majority of the Christian world was more involved with paying their tithes, going on pilgramage, and attending mass, rather than burning witches or pogroms.

And the majority of Germans were busy paying taxes, going on vacation and listening to speeches, rather than working in the death camps.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

Christianity was pretty much consistently violent (against other Christians and against non-Christians) anywhere it was in power. I mean, sure there was almost always a second, generally materialistic reason for that violence, but to say it wasn't consistently violent is a bit ahistorical.

Christianity is a religion, it cannot be violent to others in itself. You would do better to say that many Christian rulers were violent. Saying otherwise falsely implies that religion was the main cause of violence, when it is almost always secular in nature (albeit sometimes abetted by the Church). There are exceptions of course, the forced conversion of the Saxons by Charlemagne seems to be primarily religious in nature. The repression of the Cathars was also largely religious, however most violence was carried out by Northern Dukes intent on claiming large swathes of land.