[Draft] Commend Red Back

[Discord Chan]

I could say many things in reply, but the most simple thing to do is to quote Guy.

Condemnations of invaders have either been to express genuine disgust at their actions (less common these days, but see SC#1 as the archetypical example), or to congratulate them on successfully playing the "bad guys".

To reduce the entirety of invaders' contributions to "successful villains" and IC-condemning them for it runs afoul of reducing their contributions to the game to just that. Indeed, simply being good at invading does not necessarily enhance the game. There is a lot more to ensuring gameplay (and the invasion game specifically) work well in all its aspects - for invaders, natives and defenders; mechnically and socially; and so on.

It won't surprise those who know me that I have strong views on the invasion game and what type of actions contribute to it, nor that an invader organisation being successful is necessarily a positive thing. But I think that where a case exists that an invader has done a lot to contribute to the game, a commendation is an open, and possibly the correct, response.

I firmly believe that Red Back’s collective history as a leader, a regionbuilder, a teacher, and a positive influence on an entire faction of the game, which in turn has granted him near universal respect, is worthy of objective commendation.

I’ve crafted this attempting to focus on many of the same traits featured in other commendations - personal achievement, prominent impact on regions, impact well beyond any single region, helping others, etc. I’d rather focus on debates of those merits than whether raiders can *ever* be commended.

I'd actually rather you say your many things in reply, debate on proposals are a good thing. I never said raiders can never be commended, as that's proven false with EW being commended for fighting the NLO. What I am arguing though, is that they shouldn't get commended for creating a region that's gone on to destroy multiple communities over the years for fun. A condemnation, as we all know, is to express "shock and dismay" at a regions or nations actions.

I don't agree with Guy's sentiment in his second paragraph about condemnations. A condemnation does not reduce their contributions to the game, it just highlights that they're contributions are to the other end of the R/D spectrum. I myself wouldn't see a condemnation of Red Back the way Guy talks about.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Nothing in the current proposal draft is something one should be “shocked and dismayed” at - Commendations are resolution to recognize outstanding contribution by a nation or region, and this proposal focuses on outstanding contributions that Red Back has made to both a particular region and the world at large. It’s commendable to shepard a region well to a healthy live of over a decade, to innovate and teach others, to improve the section of NationStates play for all, and to stand up firmly against unacceptable actions.

[Discord Chan]

Nothing in the current proposal draft is something one should be “shocked and dismayed” at - Commendations are resolution to recognize outstanding contribution by a nation or region, and this proposal focuses on outstanding contributions that Red Back has made to both a particular region and the world at large. It’s commendable to shepard a region well to a healthy live of over a decade, to innovate and teach others, to improve the section of NationStates play for all, and to stand up firmly against unacceptable actions.

Then let's commend Grub, or King Hem, or Mikeswill while we're at it. Let's commend all the other dozen or more people that have done the same. TBH is not the only 10+ year old region, and Red Back is not the only one to do those kinds of things.

Edit: TBH may be one of the few raider regions that have lasted 10+ years, yes. But how many regions have they destroyed in that time? 5? 10? 20?

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Nothing in the current proposal draft is something one should be “shocked and dismayed” at - Commendations are resolution to recognize outstanding contribution by a nation or region, and this proposal focuses on outstanding contributions that Red Back has made to both a particular region and the world at large. It’s commendable to shepard a region well to a healthy live of over a decade, to innovate and teach others, to improve the section of NationStates play for all, and to stand up firmly against unacceptable actions.

Then let's commend Grub, or King Hem, or Mikeswill while we're at it. Let's commend all the other dozen or more people that have done the same. TBH is not the only 10+ year old region, and Red Back is not the only one to do those kinds of things.

I’m more than familiar with the argument that “service to one region is not by itself worthy of a commendation.” First off, despite this, many such resolutions pass. Should they? Hey, personally, maybe not. But that, in turn, is why I’ve very intentionally delved into his impact beyond the boarders of one region, of at times through his leadership of it. Red Back’s reach stems, if quietly, further than many even know. Trying to amend this was, in fact, one of my main motivations for beginning to draft this!

Do you think that the clauses do not sufficiently establish interregional impact? Why?

I’d also remind you that this is not a commendation of The Black Hawks, but of Red Back. Please don’t fully conflate the two. I’ve made an intentional effort to only mention his specific personably inputs and impacts.

[Discord Chan]

Do you think that the clauses do not sufficiently establish interregional impact? Why?

Maybe if you listed regions he's had a positive impact upon, or listed famous R/Ders he's trained, or if you delve more in-depth into what he's done it'd help.

Edit: You have 5,000 characters to work with. Plenty of space.

[Eumaeus]

The Security Council,

Noting that the region Red Back was originally located in was raided by outside nations,

Observing that Red Back choose a path of peace and attempting to understand the motivations of the invaders, eventually becoming one of them,

I think these two clauses would benefit from the addition of something along the lines of "rather than seeking vengeance" or something like that.

Recalling that Red Back and its puppet nations, including but not limited to TBH Commander, went on to found several regions,

Admiring that one such region, The Black Hawks, has stood both sizable and active under the leadership of Red Back for over a decade,

Recognizing that for over ten years, Red Back has been a role model for both that region and the faction of raiding as a whole, by sharing their wisdom and experience in areas of culture, morality, and tactics,

Applauding that The Black Hawks, while under Red Back's leadership, have been international leaders in enforcing standards of conduct and conflict among similarly aligned regions, in large due to specific actions of Red Back including:

• Directing the region to cooperate with global authorities in their investigation of the use of illegal weapons of war, in contrast to the resistance found in similar regions,
• Insisting the region develop a procedure to absolutely ensure illegal weapons of war were never again used on any operation they were present on, and
• Supporting the region in the condemnation of human rights violations across the world of raiding, as well as the ostracization of those who perpetuated such acts,

The underlined section seems like an ideal place to explicitly point out how RB's policy's put pressure on the interregional raiding community to follow standards.

Acknowledging that Red Back played a significant role in pioneering several modern military tactics used universally by all factions to this day,

While I disagree with a lot of what she said in the previous exchange, I do agree With Discord Chan that this clause could be built upon. I know you don't like lists Souls, but even I don't know specifically what you're talking about here.

Respecting that Equilism, one of the world's oldest and most respected democracies, has stated that Red Back provided essential support in antifascist operations against the region Nazi,

Think you mean "world's" instead of "world".

Impressed that Red Back's achievements are so universally notable and respected that the nation is known to be respected and admired even by those who oppose its actions and alignment,

Hereby Commends Red Back.

Full stop.

[Armaros]

I'd actually rather you say your many things in reply, debate on proposals are a good thing. I never said raiders can never be commended, as that's proven false with EW being commended for fighting the NLO. What I am arguing though, is that they shouldn't get commended for creating a region that's gone on to destroy multiple communities over the years for fun. A condemnation, as we all know, is to express "shock and dismay" at a regions or nations actions.

Your arguement falls apart when looking at recent resolutions. Xoriet and Severisen were both commended, in part because of their great work done for Lone Wolves United, Severisen for helping the Black Hawks too. Commending raiders is a precedent that is already set; commending them for their work in raider regions is already partially set. This really isn't much of a step.

[Discord Chan]

I'd actually rather you say your many things in reply, debate on proposals are a good thing. I never said raiders can never be commended, as that's proven false with EW being commended for fighting the NLO. What I am arguing though, is that they shouldn't get commended for creating a region that's gone on to destroy multiple communities over the years for fun. A condemnation, as we all know, is to express "shock and dismay" at a regions or nations actions.

Your arguement falls apart when looking at recent resolutions. Xoriet and Severisen were both commended, in part because of their great work done for Lone Wolves United, Severisen for helping the Black Hawks too. Commending raiders is a precedent that is already set; commending them for their work in raider regions is already partially set. This really isn't much of a step.

It's actually quite a big step to go from partially commending people for work done in raider regions, to commending people for work done solely in raider regions. Severisen and Xoriet were both commended for their roles in multiple GCRs and government positions they held within, not just actions in raider regions. In this proposal, as it is, I just see hinting at other things besides TBH but it's not detailed.

Souls says he founded multiple regions, but what regions? I only know of one he founded, which was The Black Hawks. Souls says he trained a lot of people, who of note has he helped train? Which famous people? Has he held government positions elsewhere, or just been the founder of TBH? Yes, he's made the raiding world better by enforcing better OOC standards and stopping cheaters. But what other commendable things has he done besides that? I'm seeing vague hints and insinuations, but no details.

[Xoriet]

The way I phrased it for Sev's Commendation emphasizes how he worked in intelligence to protect multiple communities, raider or not, against those who might threaten the regions in question, as well as how his work helped advance the regions and establish reputation and achievements. If you can give this to Red Back, it's essentially how I incorporated Sev's raider history into a Commendable state.

[Discord Chan]

OOC: Okay, I think I'm going to make more of an OOC post and drop my IC against argument for a minute. What I'm trying to do, in a roundabout in character against argument, is suggest changes without doing it outright. I'm still against IC, but I'm an SC author and I like to see proposals work out well.

Souls, I feel your proposal can benefit by going more in-depth into famous R/Ders Red Back has trained. I also feel that if there's any work in other regions he's done it wouldn't hurt to add those too. You have a solid proposal, but you also have 5,000 characters to work with and a little more info might help rather than hinder.

Also, like I said and Eumaeus pointed out, it may be a good idea to go into a bit of detail about military tactics he's come up with. Was it the idea to use sleepers? Was it the idea to spread WA nations throughout multiple late updating regions to jump unnoticed?

Another thing you hint at are regions he's founded. All I know about is TBH, but were there indeed others? Were they famous for some reason? These are just thoughts, so I hope this post better points out what I was trying to convey. I know I'm not good at arguing, I suck at it actually, and I'm terrible in getting stuff across to others in a good way.