[MEGATHREAD] Unusual Issue Effects

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Ha, that's up to you. I'm not going to tell you what issue option does what, though Trotterdam's stat thing is pretty good if stat manipulation is your primary goal.

My personal advice though is to pick a way to answer issues for each nation that isn't stat-dependent. For Candlewhisper Archive, we pursue advancement of technology at any cost, though the people are also largely libertarian. As a side effect, we appear to have annihilated in my environment. In my puppet nation of DoNoHarm the government seeks maximum control of its citizens, and just playing to that role has driven the nation up to near the top of the Ideological Radicality graphs. In First And Only Archive, FinalAnswer Archive and Middlemidden I answer according to the option's position in the issue (first, last and middle respectively). Then Soldiersend Archive is all about militant Christianity, and Utopian Archiveis where I pick the answers that fit my own personal morality best, though admittedly with no concern over the cost to the taxpayer.

There's no "right" way to play, buy my personal experience is that getting into the mindset of a given nation and playing it to the hilt is a fun way to create a nation which over time has a very polarised form.

[Valentine Z]

Ha, that's up to you. I'm not going to tell you what issue option does what, though Trotterdam's stat thing is pretty good if stat manipulation is your primary goal.

My personal advice though is to pick a way to answer issues for each nation that isn't stat-dependent. For Candlewhisper Archive, we pursue advancement of technology at any cost, though the people are also largely libertarian. As a side effect, we appear to have annihilated in my environment. In my puppet nation of DoNoHarm the government seeks maximum control of its citizens, and just playing to that role has driven the nation up to near the top of the Ideological Radicality graphs. In First And Only Archive, FinalAnswer Archive and Middlemidden I answer according to the option's position in the issue (first, last and middle respectively). Then Soldiersend Archive is all about militant Christianity, and Utopian Archiveis where I pick the answers that fit my own personal morality best, though admittedly with no concern over the cost to the taxpayer.

There's no "right" way to play, buy my personal experience is that getting into the mindset of a given nation and playing it to the hilt is a fun way to create a nation which over time has a very polarised form.

All right, that will be great! Thanks again for your help! I always overlooked Trot's sources, but yeah, I should really get back to using it again. It may not be an accurate microgauge, but it is a good yardstick to where my choices will take me.

Have a great day, CWA! ^^

[Hexicore]

Name of the Nation: The Empire of Hexicore (https://www.nationstates.net/nation=hexicore)
When this issue was encountered: 4/7/2019, 6:02:54 PM CDT
The name/number of the issue: I did not even think to remember them and could not locate either the name or number after the fact.

My civil rights were Average or Above-Average. The Issue was that children were seen gambling in casinos, and I had the choice to make gambling illegal, remove the minimum gambling age, and something else. In the interest of improving my civil rights, I removed the minimum gambling age. I believe this unintuitively somehow reduced my civil rights.

I am new to NS and I apologize if I have made any errors. Let me know if I can help clarify at all!

[Trotterdam]

I did not even think to remember them and could not locate either the name or number after the fact.

The issue in question is #5.

However, I note on your RMB that you did not bring up the civil rights effect immediately after answering that issue, but rather four hours later, around the same time that you decided to raise newborns as mindless killing machines.

[Chilean Syndicates]

Nation name: Chilean Syndicates
Issue encountered: 4/8/2019
Issue #294: Ghost Riders on the Sly
Following the passage of a well-supported bill that contained half a dozen riders, corruption watchdog groups are lobbying the government to take action against the use of these unrelated addenda in lawmaking.

I selected the option 1, which it says:
1. "This is unacceptable," says legislative clerk @@RANDOMNAME@@, peeking out from behind a wall of 3-ring binders. "It paves the way for corruption, eats up all our time and money, and, quite frankly, is exhausting! We must require each bill to have one – clearly defined – purpose and be able to state that purpose in a concise title. That way we won't have any more defense spending bills with addenda about cheese processing regulations. The industry will hate it, but if I have to read through one more schizophrenic morass, I'll quit!"
I selected that option with the logical objective of reducing the already low corruption, but instead it rose more than 200%. I think this could be an error, for the extreme change, or maybe I'm doing something wrong. Thanks

[Merni]

(snip)
I selected that option with the logical objective of reducing the already low corruption, but instead it rose more than 200%. I think this could be an error, for the extreme change, or maybe I'm doing something wrong. Thanks

As to whether corruption is supposed to increase at all, I don't know, and probably an Editor will answer that question.
But here's a quote from the OP (the first post) about high % jumps.

(snip)
"Why did this stat change by X%? That's too much / too little!"

The percentage change depends on your starting point.
If you have a statistic of 5, and the game code says add +2 to this, you'll see an increase of +40%.
If you have a statistic of 100, and the game code says add +2 to this, you'll see an increase of +2%.
If you have a statistic of 0.01, and the game code says add +2 to this, you'll see an increase of +20000%.

The perceived magnitude of effect that you are experiencing often results from being a new nation. The earliest issues you answer always cause massive stat changes, as you're adding small numbers to small numbers. As time goes on you'll find that the same issues will often now barely affect things at all, as you're adding small numbers to very large numbers.

Corollary: If you see NO stat effects, the simulation isn't broken. Rather, the decision was in keeping with where your current stat model suggests you are ideologically and structurally, so no stat changes were needed.

Look on it not so much as a direct cause and effect thing, but rather the game working out the nature of your nation. The more information it gathers, the closer it moves your simulation to where you're likely to truly be. It's kind of a collapsing waveform sort of thing. It's not quite that simple, but the main gist here is not to see the "effects" as part of a direct cause and effect model.

For example, if banning Grand Prix racing drops your tourism by 75%, it's not that Grand Prix racing represented 75% of your tourism, rather that the simulation is gathering information about your priorities, and slowly refining its simulation of those. Later on, when your nation has momentum, only decisions that are out of keeping with your previous direction will upset the overall simulation.

So long as you keep answering issues with a consistent style, and keep playing the game, your nation's simulation will grow more and more stable.

Don't worry about "buyer's regret" either. Early decisions in your nation's lifespan are no more inherently consequential than late ones: its the amalgamated effect of ALL your decisions that matters.

[Hexicore]

I did not even think to remember them and could not locate either the name or number after the fact.

The issue in question is #5.

However, I note on your RMB that you did not bring up the civil rights effect immediately after answering that issue, but rather four hours later, around the same time that you decided to raise newborns as mindless killing machines.

That is correct. I checked and it is #5. The later decision to raise newborns as mindless killing machines also reduced my country's civil rights, but that one is quite obvious why. I am new to NS and did not know there was a way to report odd stat changes until someone in my region told me 4 hours later.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

I did not even think to remember them and could not locate either the name or number after the fact.

The issue in question is #5.

However, I note on your RMB that you did not bring up the civil rights effect immediately after answering that issue, but rather four hours later, around the same time that you decided to raise newborns as mindless killing machines.

Yeah, Trotterdam is correct on this one.

Unsurprisingly, creating an official policy of forcing children to be soldiers had a negative effect on your civil rights. Who'd have thought, eh?

And no, allowing children to gamble didn't affect your civil rights at all, though it did increase economic freedoms.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Nation name: Chilean Syndicates
Issue encountered: 4/8/2019
Issue #294: Ghost Riders on the Sly
Following the passage of a well-supported bill that contained half a dozen riders, corruption watchdog groups are lobbying the government to take action against the use of these unrelated addenda in lawmaking.

I selected the option 1, which it says:
1. "This is unacceptable," says legislative clerk @@RANDOMNAME@@, peeking out from behind a wall of 3-ring binders. "It paves the way for corruption, eats up all our time and money, and, quite frankly, is exhausting! We must require each bill to have one – clearly defined – purpose and be able to state that purpose in a concise title. That way we won't have any more defense spending bills with addenda about cheese processing regulations. The industry will hate it, but if I have to read through one more schizophrenic morass, I'll quit!"
I selected that option with the logical objective of reducing the already low corruption, but instead it rose more than 200%. I think this could be an error, for the extreme change, or maybe I'm doing something wrong. Thanks

Any option that restricts political freedoms can worsen corruption, and this option, being a complex one, could move corruption either way. Look at it this way - you're introducing a well-meaning restriction to the democratic process that intends to reduce corruption, but the imposition of your will over the free action of parliament/senate represents the thin end of the wedge of tyranny.

I have, however, reweighted the issue slightly to make a drop in corruption slightly more likely, but it can still go either way.

Also, what Merni said about percentages is correct.

[Bisim]

Today I answered issue No. 845, "A Comedy Of Errors" I choose option two. The main affect of this was an increase in the book publishing industry. Many of my other unrelated industries fell, but that is typical of NS issues.

My question is why, if Book Publishing increases dramatically, why wouldn't the Industry Timber Wood Chipping (logging), increase as well? Presumably more paper is needed to print the increased number of books?

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Today I answered issue No. 845, "A Comedy Of Errors" I choose option two. The main affect of this was an increase in the book publishing industry. Many of my other unrelated industries fell, but that is typical of NS issues.

My question is why, if Book Publishing increases dramatically, why wouldn't the Industry Timber Wood Chipping (logging), increase as well? Presumably more paper is needed to print the increased number of books?

Publishing isn't directly coded to increase timber as a byproduct.

Some numbers to crunch 55% of paper is made from new wood pulp (38% recycled, 7% non-wood fibres).
Overall, around 35% of trees that are cut down end up in paper. However, most of that paper isn't used in the publishing industry - around 15% is, the rest goes to other purposes.

So all in all, publishing's paper use accounts for about 5% of the timber industry.

The game's granularity isn't really set up sufficiently to give a +0.05 timber increase for every +1 increase of publishing, so instead it treats timber in the same way as all other industries. While an exclusion could be programmed in to account for this small shift, it'd be inconsistent with the scale of granularity elsewhere in the simulation, so I wouldn't say its desirable.

[The Super Spoon]

My nation has the sex education policy, and I got issue #840 Abstinence Makes the Heart Grow Fonder, and chose option #4

“We could make everyone happy,” coos prematurely-grey former-teacher Margaret Vangelis, her bug-eyes seeming even larger through a thick pair of round-rimmed spectacles. “I admit, I used to be one of those hip ‘withhold nothing’ teachers. Then I had kids. The idea of my itty-bitty Sherlock hearing naughty words, in the name of ‘education’? Not on my watch, bucko. Big Government should stop legislating every tiny detail of our kids’ school day, and allow schools to teach any sex education curriculum they like: from no-holds-barred to nothing at all. Then parents will be free to choose the school that best suits their needs.”

I expected this to repeal my sex education policy, but it did not.

Any reason why?

[Candlewhisper Archive]

I see your point. Option recoded.

[Blueflarst]

an issue lowed my political freedoms and civil rights without reason
http://prntscr.com/nbtm62 http://prntscr.com/nbtmgy
http://prntscr.com/nbtmnc
IT RAISED MY AUTHORITARIANISM AND CORRUPTION
such anger

[Woryand]

My guess would be that the game thinks that what you're doing is some sort of 1984-esque language revisions, which would have the effect that happened.

[Ransium]

an issue lowed my political freedoms and civil rights without reason
http://prntscr.com/nbtm62 http://prntscr.com/nbtmgy
http://prntscr.com/nbtmnc
IT RAISED MY AUTHORITARIANISM AND CORRUPTION
such anger

I've merged your post into the unusual issue effects megathread.

[Blueflarst]

an issue lowed my political freedoms and civil rights without reason
http://prntscr.com/nbtm62 http://prntscr.com/nbtmgy
http://prntscr.com/nbtmnc
IT RAISED MY AUTHORITARIANISM AND CORRUPTION
such anger

I've merged your post into the unusual issue effects megathread.

good i hope someone can solve it

[Candlewhisper Archive]

My nation has the sex education policy, and I got issue #840 Abstinence Makes the Heart Grow Fonder, and chose option #4

“We could make everyone happy,” coos prematurely-grey former-teacher Margaret Vangelis, her bug-eyes seeming even larger through a thick pair of round-rimmed spectacles. “I admit, I used to be one of those hip ‘withhold nothing’ teachers. Then I had kids. The idea of my itty-bitty Sherlock hearing naughty words, in the name of ‘education’? Not on my watch, bucko. Big Government should stop legislating every tiny detail of our kids’ school day, and allow schools to teach any sex education curriculum they like: from no-holds-barred to nothing at all. Then parents will be free to choose the school that best suits their needs.”

I expected this to repeal my sex education policy, but it did not.

Any reason why?

The policy reversal was added to this option, as I note above, but the discussion has been re-opened backstage. The change may or may not be reverted according to the discussion's outcome. Will keep you posted.

[Blueflarst]

My nation has the sex education policy, and I got issue #840 Abstinence Makes the Heart Grow Fonder, and chose option #4



I expected this to repeal my sex education policy, but it did not.

Any reason why?

The policy reversal was added to this option, as I note above, but the discussion has been re-opened backstage. The change may or may not be reverted according to the discussion's outcome. Will keep you posted.

do i deserve a 27,4 increase on authritarianism for reforming my language? also why it lowers my political freedoms 30%?
REALLY?

[Kuviran]

My nation, Kuviran, ran into an issue regarding Issue 878, DoublePlusUnGood. This was encountered today, 14/4/2019.

The question was asked before, but the issue I’m facing was not answered at that time, as the responses focused on a different part of the overall question. My issue is that, when choosing option 2, which states “Grab those who complain, and strip them of their liberty by putting them to forced labour in service of the state. Good citizens will have the incentive to behave better, and our economy will benefit from a costless workforce,” my authoritarinism score went down 14.7%, taking me from a score of 10.9k to 9.3k.

I’m wondering how it makes sense that, in enslaving the workforce to the state specifically (and not to independent slave owners), authoritarianism goes down instead of up. There should be no logical explanation for this.

[The Free Joy State]

an issue lowed my political freedoms and civil rights without reason
http://prntscr.com/nbtm62 http://prntscr.com/nbtmgy
http://prntscr.com/nbtmnc
IT RAISED MY AUTHORITARIANISM AND CORRUPTION
such anger

In future, please give the name/number of the issue and the option you picked. It's time-consuming to track down options from print-screens.

And to answer your question, there is nothing unusual about these stats. The option enforces the stripping back of the language to make it easier to understand. Forced simplification of the language is an impingement on free speech which raises authoritarianism. The corruption here is a secondary stat, linked to many factors, including those present.

My nation, Kuviran, ran into an issue regarding Issue 878, DoublePlusUnGood. This was encountered today, 14/4/2019.

The question was asked before, but the issue I’m facing was not answered at that time, as the responses focused on a different part of the overall question. My issue is that, when choosing option 2, which states “Grab those who complain, and strip them of their liberty by putting them to forced labour in service of the state. Good citizens will have the incentive to behave better, and our economy will benefit from a costless workforce,” my authoritarinism score went down 14.7%, taking me from a score of 10.9k to 9.3k.

(Image)

I’m wondering how it makes sense that, in enslaving the workforce to the state specifically (and not to independent slave owners), authoritarianism goes down instead of up. There should be no logical explanation for this.

I see what that is. There is a balance of rights here (the reduced rights of your people by making those who disobey into slaves and the increased freedom of businesses -- state and private -- to not pay their new slaves any money) that would -- in many nations -- usually be outweighed by the reduced rights of the enforced slavery. However, in your individual nation, your people's rights can't really get much lower.

So the freedom to have a costless workforce outweighed the lost rights of your citizens and resulted in reduced authoritarianism.

[Kuviran]

I see what that is. There is a balance of rights here (the reduced rights of your people by making those who disobey into slaves and the increased freedom of businesses -- state and private -- to not pay their new slaves any money) that would -- in many nations -- usually be outweighed by the reduced rights of the enforced slavery. However, in your individual nation, your people's rights can't really get much lower.

So the freedom to have a costless workforce outweighed the lost rights of your citizens and resulted in reduced authoritarianism.

Thank you for your response, though I do have some follow-up concerns.

There is no private industry nor privately-held businesses in my country. Therefore, enslaving my population would only benefit the state (just me, since it's an authoritarian government headed by a monarch). Are you suggesting that the state granting (to itself) the ability to enslave its population is increasing freedom (of itself) outweighing the minimal but still statistical loss of economic freedoms of its population? This decision benefits nobody but my character and the members of their government. That sounds like, at the very least, it should have kept my authoritarianism score neutral, but barring the existence of private-sector slavery, I can't see any reason why it should have lowered it.

[The Free Joy State]

I see what that is. There is a balance of rights here (the reduced rights of your people by making those who disobey into slaves and the increased freedom of businesses -- state and private -- to not pay their new slaves any money) that would -- in many nations -- usually be outweighed by the reduced rights of the enforced slavery. However, in your individual nation, your people's rights can't really get much lower.

So the freedom to have a costless workforce outweighed the lost rights of your citizens and resulted in reduced authoritarianism.

Thank you for your response, though I do have some follow-up concerns.

There is no private industry nor privately-held businesses in my country. Therefore, enslaving my population would only benefit the state (just me, since it's an authoritarian government headed by a monarch). Are you suggesting that the state granting (to itself) the ability to enslave its population is increasing freedom (of itself) outweighing the minimal but still statistical loss of economic freedoms of its population? This decision benefits nobody but my character and the members of their government. That sounds like, at the very least, it should have kept my authoritarianism score neutral, but barring the existence of private-sector slavery, I can't see any reason why it should have lowered it.

I'm afraid this boils down to: "stats can't account for every RP situation."

It's not uncommon, even in countries with no private enterprise, for there to be others who would benefit from the freedom to pay lower pay/no pay -- factory managers, feudal lords (depending on time period; we do have some socialist feudalist states *coughs*)

This is one of those situations where the standardised stats -- every issue option has standardised stats; it has to (there's no way we can write unique stats for each nation) -- were not directly applicable to you but are appropriate for the issue option.

[Agnatoli]

This is not an effect, but it's the unexpected issue stuff

Why didn't I receive the 3rd option in #831(The Universe Creation Day)??? I didn't ban religon???

[The Free Joy State]

This is not an effect, but it's the unexpected issue stuff

Why didn't I receive the 3rd option in #831(The Universe Creation Day)??? I didn't ban religon???

You don't need the Atheism policy to not get that option.

The hidden stats have five possible governmental views on religion encoded into them: state atheism, discouraged to varying degrees, neither frowned-on nor encouraged, encouraged but with some degree of religious freedom, and mandatory state religion.

Looking backstage, I can see that your government has previously answered issues in a way that take a mildly anti-religion stance, so you would not get this option. It's the backstage stats that we go on.

There's nothing unusual here. If you wish to see religious options in future, I suggest taking some pro-religious options in issues where they come up.

In future, if you think validities are incorrectly coded, please use this thread.