Europeian Embassy - In Solidarity

[Doing it Rightland]

ITT: Pierconium is Lucy, the APC is Charlie Brown, and Pierconium's acquiescence is the football.

Hilarious.

On a more serious note, though, I do respect Europeia's and Topid's statements. They have achieved their goals, and as such, their actions in this conflict conclude. Should the Pacific go back to historical abuses, I have no doubt they will return to the APC. But I don't think it's right to bash the two simply because they feel satisfied with the outcome on their end. I hope that changes in the Pacific are lasting, and I look forward to the Pacific making amends with the inter-regional community as we all move forward.

[Altinsane]

You can expect us to continue to not cater to your requests and baiting.

Accusations of baiting belong in Moderation, not used as GP jabs. You were doing so well too

Oh my Lord. Lol. I was not accusing him of Flamebait. Just the regular kind. Y'all take me for way more aggressive than I'm actually being sometimes. I've been aggressive at like one person ever out here. Ivan is not the guy. He's just some dude I meme around with.

Lol :3 I was having fun.
----

Ivan -
Something something self important something else glhf. As evidently APC is doing nothing at all to harm NPO aside from very much not liking them, shocking to hear that you intend to "focus upon" us the regions of our organizers as enemies. Very scary. Dang NPO never changes. Subversive sneaks.

I meant focus my ridicule, as was evident in my post.

I have no need to ‘target’ any region and the Pacific has no plans to do so at present simply because it has no need to. All I have to do to point to the failures of the APC is look at the location of my nation. Since your stated aim is the destruction of the NPO, and apparently all member regions of the APC share that aim equally (except when they conveniently don’t because of a lack of coordination and cohesion evidently) I simply need to exist and remain in the Pacific to illustrate your failure.

Did I state that? I recall stating a whole buncha times that NPO's "changed" act was a farse. I don't recall saying anything really beyond that. Good to know we're all entirely safe from all evils except you making mean faces, though. I don't really mind mean faces, they're kinda cute. :3

[Escade]

What I Used to Feel From GP Posts\Incidents:

What I Feel Skimming This Thread

[King HEM]

What I Used to Feel From GP Posts\Incidents:

(Image)

What I Feel Skimming This Thread

(Image)

I usually hate GIFs, but this is perfect.

[Cormactopia Prime]

What I Used to Feel From GP Posts\Incidents:

(Image)

What I Feel Skimming This Thread

(Image)

I usually hate GIFs, but this is perfect.

Maybe you should consider doing something about the abysmal state of gameplay. Europeia actually just contributed to more stagnation by declaring "victory" and reverting to the years long status quo of focusing inward and having no impact on gameplay. So you're part of the problem.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

I usually hate GIFs, but this is perfect.

Maybe you should consider doing something about the abysmal state of gameplay. Europeia actually just contributed to more stagnation by declaring "victory" and reverting to the years long status quo of focusing inward and having no impact on gameplay. So you're part of the problem.

While I have no love for Europeia, I'm quite certain that they're far less part of the ongoing death of gameplay than all of the colossal out-of-context crusades that you and your friends launch.

[New Rogernomics]

Maybe you should consider doing something about the abysmal state of gameplay. Europeia actually just contributed to more stagnation by declaring "victory" and reverting to the years long status quo of focusing inward and having no impact on gameplay. So you're part of the problem.

While I have no love for Europeia, I'm quite certain that they're far less part of the ongoing death of gameplay than all of the colossal out-of-context crusades that you and your friends launch.

To be fair, Gameplay really died down by around 2009-2010, when NS lost quite a few flavorful regions and controversial regions that riled people's feathers. NS really only has the NPO and RP Nazis right now, when it used to have Gatesville, The Last Kingdom, Kodiak,The Ascendancy/Dominion, and the raider faction/region that must not be named, among others.

It really used to be fun on gameplay, when Europeia actually considered players such as myself as an ideological threat, 10k islands was more aggrieved, and people actually had some reason beyond common threat to not like other regions.

If I wasn't a GCR fossil who is meant to be against coups and riling up the masses these days, I'd say someone needs to start up a new UCR that most in gameplay can ideologically hate, or coup a GCR to create another menace, to at least give someone a more interesting gameplay experience.

PS: If someone coups a GCR...try somewhere other than Lazarus. It isn't fun, just stupidly annoying to have to start a new forum community from scratch every few years.
*off-site admin woes*

[The Gilded Star]

If I wasn't a GCR fossil who is meant to be against coups and riling up the masses these days, I'd say someone needs to start up a new UCR that most in gameplay can ideologically hate, or coup a GCR to create another menace, to at least give someone a more interesting gameplay experience.

I feel like part of the problem is that game meta gets developed and optimized to the point to where things stalemate. Take the NPO vs. APC dispute. APC wants to take action but it's nigh impossible to successfully invade a secured major region, much less a secured GCR. And though I'd be surprised if the NPO didn't deny it a thousand times over, I'm betting all-in that the only reason they're attempting the "we don't care" road instead of threatening action against their enemies is because they know they can't make good on it either and don't want to admit they're just as helpless.

The result is all talk and no action, barring the possible closing of an embassy with the most furious pounding of the confirmation button.

[Pierconium]

If I wasn't a GCR fossil who is meant to be against coups and riling up the masses these days, I'd say someone needs to start up a new UCR that most in gameplay can ideologically hate, or coup a GCR to create another menace, to at least give someone a more interesting gameplay experience.

I feel like part of the problem is that game meta gets developed and optimized to the point to where things stalemate. Take the NPO vs. APC dispute. APC wants to take action but it's nigh impossible to successfully invade a secured major region, much less a secured GCR. And though I'd be surprised if the NPO didn't deny it a thousand times over, I'm betting all-in that the only reason they're attempting the "we don't care" road instead of threatening action against their enemies is because they know they can't make good on it either and don't want to admit they're just as helpless.

The result is all talk and no action, barring the possible closing of an embassy with the most furious pounding of the confirmation button.

While I don’t want to discount your argument completely, because I agree that the limitations of game mechanics make certain scenarios impossible, the reason there is a ‘war’ to begin with is because the NPO has demonstrated (rightly or wrongly) that it is in fact capable of dealing harm onto other communities. The paper tiger argument only works so far. We aren’t, and have never been, helpless. We have decided that the cons outweight the pros in regards to certain types of conduct and have adjusted accordingly.

[King HEM]

I usually hate GIFs, but this is perfect.

Maybe you should consider doing something about the abysmal state of gameplay. Europeia actually just contributed to more stagnation by declaring "victory" and reverting to the years long status quo of focusing inward and having no impact on gameplay. So you're part of the problem.

How many different arguments are you going to rotate through trying to find a line of attack against us that sticks?

I'll take the bait though: I don't think there's anything gameplay stimulating about maintaining an empty husk of a war with few attainable objectives. The only thing you might say is that it shifted in-game coalitions around a bit (Cormac and Europeia being on the same side for a hot second) but the coalitions were...NPO and nearly everyone else lol. It wasn't a real conflict as much as a social mob, and so I'm not sure there was long-term sticking value.

[New Rogernomics]

If I wasn't a GCR fossil who is meant to be against coups and riling up the masses these days, I'd say someone needs to start up a new UCR that most in gameplay can ideologically hate, or coup a GCR to create another menace, to at least give someone a more interesting gameplay experience.

I feel like part of the problem is that game meta gets developed and optimized to the point to where things stalemate. Take the NPO vs. APC dispute. APC wants to take action but it's nigh impossible to successfully invade a secured major region, much less a secured GCR. And though I'd be surprised if the NPO didn't deny it a thousand times over, I'm betting all-in that the only reason they're attempting the "we don't care" road instead of threatening action against their enemies is because they know they can't make good on it either and don't want to admit they're just as helpless.

The result is all talk and no action, barring the possible closing of an embassy with the most furious pounding of the confirmation button.

I think you first have to determine your goal, then follow it. I have probably said it numerous times as a private citizen, but I am not interested in a 'propaganda war' with the New Pacific Order, as that sort of defeats the purpose of wanting to end the New Pacific Order as an institution by merit of honest argument, and for The Pacific to fix it's problems internally. By all means, we can list grievances with how the NPO has operated, but that in itself only provides half the answer of why the New Pacific Order seems unlikely to be able to reform.

What Lazarus seems interested in doing, is making clear that we don't find what the New Pacific Order did was acceptable, and that at least for Lazarus, we've found it impossible or too compromising to have a diplomatic relations with the New Pacific Order. Diplomatic initiatives over the years never bore fruit - and quite the opposite in fact, given that members of the New Pacific Order took advantage when Lazarus was at it's weakest, even though technically by that point Lazarus had full diplomatic relations with the Order.

We've heard a lot of talk about how defeating the NPO has to be some great battlefield victory, which I think is way too narrow-focused and short sighted, as you don't defeat the New Pacific Order that way. To put it another way, let's say hypothetically many regions band together and overthrow the NPO, in itself that is only a change of those in charge, and it doesn't change the underlying culture within The Pacific that allowed the NPO to do what it did or become what it did. You'd just forestall the rise of a new 'New Pacific Order', if your goal is only partial reform or just deposing the current leaders that be.

If Europeia believes it's goals are achieved, then by all means they are welcome to end their own war with New Pacific Order, but the war between Lazarus and The New Pacific Order continues. As for the duration, we don't lose anything by keeping at war, as friendly relations aren't an option, nor do we allow the war to be the sole focus of what we do, as of course improving Lazarus is our focus.

That said, the New Pacific Order doesn't have the respect it once had, and it wasn't us who did that either, but rather leaks and flaws from within their own structure. If you want change, you can't just pop up on their doorstep and say 'I want to reform the NPO, let me in', nor can you engage them diplomatically (as they are stuck in their ways), nor can you just depose the NPO and expect spontaneous change, nor perpetually occupy them. Even if the game mechanics were changed, it wouldn't really alter the dynamic that change has to come from within The Pacific.

[Pierconium]

snip

This is basically a wall of text that states 'we can't remove the NPO and they won't change so we will just continue to watch them and not talk to them'. Right?

To address it, and to highlight some of the reasons Europeia decided that they had achieved their version of victory, I will point you back to this list of very specific things the NPO has done in response to the current turmoil, any one of which most reasonable people could consider part of a 'victory': viewtopic.php?p=35354146#p35354146

If you can't be bothered to read the link, here is the list again (with item 8 elaborated upon and 9 added):

1. The Emperor of the NPO resigned.
2. The Consul of the NPO resigned and agreed to permanent exile from the NPO in NS.
3. Two Senators were removed from the NPO Senate.
4. Apologies were issued directly to the affected regions from the new Emperor.
5. The unfortunate declaration of war on TBH was rescinded.
6. The Emperor explicitly outlawed any and all acts of espionage and infiltration by the NPO.
7. A new Charter was written allowing for the citizens to have a larger voice in the laws of the Pacific.
8. The Emperor and Senate created guidelines for a new elected member of the Senate, who is in the process of being elected at present.
9. Francoism has been completely removed from all government documentation and is no longer discussed as a guiding principle of the Pacific.

Now, what you fail to mention in your commentary is that the Emperor went to Osiris and acquiesced to their demands almost immediately after these issues came to light. He negotiated in good faith and after their demands were met they moved the goalposts and declared war anyway. That is, of course, their right, but it just illustrates the wider problem with people in the opposition. There isn't any point in talking to them at this point because they can't ever be satisfied and are hypocritical in their approach to diplomacy.

I have personally found the Delegate nations of both Lazarus and Osiris personable and reasonable, but the concept of being a 'True Believer' in the war effort will continue to limit the possibilities of reconciliation so long as shortsightedness dominates the playing field.

[New Rogernomics]

snip

This is basically a wall of text that states 'we can't remove the NPO and they won't change so we will just continue to watch them and not talk to them'. Right?

Not at all. I argue that the physical war effort is only one part of a general campaign to end the institutional structure of the NPO, and that The Pacific will have to change from within, regardless of the war outcome.

To address it, and to highlight some of the reasons Europeia decided that they had achieved their version of victory, I will point you back to this list of very specific things the NPO has done in response to the current turmoil, any one of which most reasonable people could consider part of a 'victory': viewtopic.php?p=35354146#p35354146

If you'd have bothered to read my 'wall of text', you'd know I can't respond in regards to what another region's war objectives are, especially given that I am not a citizen there, and my 'wall of text' related to Lazarus mostly anyway.

If you can't be bothered to read the link, here is the list again (with item 8 elaborated upon and 9 added):

1. The Emperor of the NPO resigned.
2. The Consul of the NPO resigned and agreed to permanent exile from the NPO in NS.
3. Two Senators were removed from the NPO Senate.
4. Apologies were issued directly to the affected regions from the new Emperor.
5. The unfortunate declaration of war on TBH was rescinded.
6. The Emperor explicitly outlawed any and all acts of espionage and infiltration by the NPO.
7. A new Charter was written allowing for the citizens to have a larger voice in the laws of the Pacific.
8. The Emperor and Senate created guidelines for a new elected member of the Senate, who is in the process of being elected at present.
9. Francoism has been completely removed from all government documentation and is no longer discussed as a guiding principle of the Pacific.

All of which were rejected as 'half-hearted' by a public conscience vote of the Lazarus region. We've had this whole discussion, and Lazarus never really believed the alleged concessions as sincere or effective enough. That may have satisfied other regions, but certainly not Lazarus. Though I clearly remember discussion on (6) being unenforceable, due to the inability to monitor the NPO forum and nations for compliance, and the ability of the NPO to effectively deny involvement regardless.

Now, what you fail to mention in your commentary is that the Emperor went to Osiris and acquiesced to their demands almost immediately after these issues came to light.

As mentioned in my point above with Europeia, you'd know I can't respond in regards to what another region's war objectives are, as I am not a citizen of Osiris. Though Osiris is also at war with you, so I'd figure those 'demands being met' weren't enough to satisfy Osiris.

He negotiated in good faith and after their demands were met they moved the goalposts and declared war anyway. That is, of course, their right, but it just illustrates the wider problem with people in the opposition. There isn't any point in talking to them at this point because they can't ever be satisfied and are hypocritical in their approach to diplomacy.

I have personally found the Delegate nations of both Lazarus and Osiris personable and reasonable, but the concept of being a 'True Believer' in the war effort will continue to limit the possibilities of reconciliation so long as shortsightedness dominates the playing field.

You are confusing executive power with legislative power, at least in regards to us. Quite to the contrary of the final position, in the Executive and Cabinet we took a neutral position to the extent that most of us abstained, and left it to the region to decide whether we should go to war, and the extent of the measures that should be taken. Once the region had decided, we supported the decision of the region, and continue to do so.

Unless Lazarus spontaneously decides to believe the NPO, which I'd doubt any time soon, reconciliation is rather inconceivable. To start any diplomatic relationship requires some trust, and such trust is non-existent. The last rebuilding of trust gradually occurred after the end of the NLO events, though that only was possible due to a willingness to engage diplomatically with the NPO, in the hopes of ending future hostility between the NPO and Lazarus. Such willingness doesn't exist any more, at least in any recognizable form, and such willingness by the NPO (where it does exist) is generally viewed with suspicion as having a hidden agenda - effectively that mending ties with Lazarus would be only to repair the public image of the NPO, and then revert to it's old ways.

Generally a lot of people in Lazarus regret those attempts at rebuilding trust and re-opening relations, given that when we were most vulnerable, members of the NPO, state-sanctioned or not, took advantage. There was no diplomatic discussion, and certainly the New Pacific Order never made concerns known about the Celestial Union administration, even though Lazarus and New Pacific Order were by no means meant to be hostile at that time - or so the Celestial Union was to believe.

While we may not be a successor state, the distrust runs deep, from all corners of the region, from the former Celestial Union loyalists through to the supporters of the Dominion and later administrations.If anything, Lazarus is fairly cautious in the war, and instituted a proscription to prohibit NPO involvement in our political institutions, and although we can't stop infiltration entirely, if it were to occur, we've made it pretty clear that we don't want to have any relationship with the New Pacific Order in the future - and that we've legislated to keep it that way.

[Pierconium]

So it isn’t that the NPO is incapable of change, it is that Lazarus is incapable of change, then? You state that Lazarus is entrenched in its positions and that they will not alter, undoubtedly because those in power perpetuate such positions. We all know how NS politics works.

Oh well.

I guess we will just continue to sit around and worry about how Lazarus is ‘watching’ us. Good luck with all that. How much coordination does a watching campaign take anyway?

[The Gilded Star]

While I don’t want to discount your argument completely, because I agree that the limitations of game mechanics make certain scenarios impossible, the reason there is a ‘war’ to begin with is because the NPO has demonstrated (rightly or wrongly) that it is in fact capable of dealing harm onto other communities. The paper tiger argument only works so far. We aren’t, and have never been, helpless. We have decided that the cons outweight the pros in regards to certain types of conduct and have adjusted accordingly.

Fair enough. I was going to mention that subversive actions were about the only way to still harm major regions, but I ended up omitting that from my post. That being said, the major reason for the community condemnation of the NPO is for those tactics, and the result is that such tactics are widely frowned upon by essentially everyone, now including the NPO. With that tactic being taken off the table, there's really not very much left in the way of alternatives. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, mind you, but it does highlight the limitations of these situations.

[Drop Your Pants]

With that tactic being taken off the table, there's really not very much left in the way of alternatives. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, mind you, but it does highlight the limitations of these situations.

Off the table for TP certainly, no one is quite sure about the APC. But they're the "good" guys so it'll be ok when they do it

[The Gilded Star]

Off the table for TP certainly, no one is quite sure about the APC. But they're the "good" guys so it'll be ok when they do it

Given that the APC movement has largely been a condemnation of subversive tactics as bad sportsmanship, and justified the war against the NPO by inciting outrage of the NPO using those tactics, the APC then subsequently using those same tactics against the NPO would induce eyebrow raising of the highest caliber.

For the foreseeable future, I would expect subversiveness to be a hot potato that no one wants to touch again.

[Drop Your Pants]

Given that the APC movement has largely been a condemnation of subversive tactics as bad sportsmanship, and justified the war against the NPO by inciting outrage of the NPO using those tactics, the APC then subsequently using those same tactics against the NPO would induce eyebrow raising of the highest caliber.

For the foreseeable future, I would expect subversiveness to be a hot potato that no one wants to touch again.

When they get caught trying it I'll come back here for my eyebrow raising show

[Escade]

This is NationStates and in this particular battle, there are no "good" guys.

What's killed GP is a number of things and one of them, most definitively, is believing the only way to get rid of an IC enemy is the OOC route. Most of us turn a blind eye when one of our own does something "wrong" while crucifying our opponents for a papercut. No one is willing to have clear visible standards that are universally applicable (no matter how popular or unpopular the players are) and a system where those who have made a mistake that isn't egregious can come back. Or even to say, "this is bad if anyone does it including my bff and my left nut."

Here's the thing, NSGP used to be like high school with cliques, salt, drama and players chose to indulge in that. Or if the high school metaphor doesn't work for you - it used to be like real politics with the cliques, salt, drama, and clapbacks. Now it's being overrun by the special snowflakes who use OOC to achieve IC gains and its killed the game. Call someone "lame" and they bring in OOC issues that have no place in the game as a response, call someone "petty" and they threaten to quit the game unless the player is banned. The players defending some of these players are the same players who are okay with some really OOC bad behavior (like sexual harassment).

We can't have an IC discussion\battle\argument on Discord without some random tool trying to bring in OOC issues. NSGP has been spayed and neutered. Can players with authority and respect in the game actually get together in an OOC meeting, put aside their petty IC\cross OOC mayhem, and make a list of concrete and specific behaviors and actions and consequences that are publicly visible to all? And then follow through on them?

It's 2019 and while I still believe in miracles, I'm not holding out for this one.

[Galiantus III]

So it isn’t that the NPO is incapable of change, it is that Lazarus is incapable of change, then? You state that Lazarus is entrenched in its positions and that they will not alter, undoubtedly because those in power perpetuate such positions. We all know how NS politics works.

Lazarus has had to endure near constant change its whole existence (in large part due to the meddlings of the NPO) and thus its residents are adaptable and very capable of change. That we refuse to change on this issue is an active expression of our newfound independence from NPO influence, not a disability, and not a result of those in power. Meanwhile, it seems that the NPO feels significant pain making even the slightest change that is so routine to other regions.

I would also add that our delegate, vice delegate, and foreign affairs minister all deferred to the voices of the residents of the region to determine our relations with the NPO. Your assumptions about "those in power" in Lazarus are either misguided or ignorant.

[Armaros]

This is NationStates and in this particular battle, there are no "good" guys.

What's killed GP is a number of things and one of them, most definitively, is believing the only way to get rid of an IC enemy is the OOC route. Most of us turn a blind eye when on of our own does something "wrong" while crucifying our opponents for a papercut. No one is willing to have clear visible standards that are universally applicable (no matter how popular or unpopular the players are) and a system where those who have made a mistake that isn't egregious can come back. Or even to say, "this is bad if anyone does it including my bff and my left nut."

Here's the thing, NSGP used to be like high school with cliques, salt, drama and players chose to indulge in that. Or if the high school metaphor doesn't work for you - it used to be like real politics with the cliques, salt, drama, and clapbacks. Now it's being overrun by the special snowflakes who use OOC to achieve IC gains and its killed the game. Call someone "lame" and they bring in OOC issues that have no place in the game as a response, call someone "petty" and they threaten to quit the game unless the player is banned. The players defending some of these players are the same players who are okay with some really OOC bad behavior.

We can't have an IC discussion\battle\argument on Discord without some random tool trying to bring in OOC issues. NSGP has been spayed and neutered. Can players with authority and respect in the game actually get together in an OOC meeting, put aside their petty IC\cross OOC mayhem, and make a list of concrete and specific behaviors and actions and consequences that are publicly visible to all? And then follow through on them?

It's 2019 and while I still believe in miracles, I'm not holding out for this one.

No offense... but what does this have to do with Europeia, Europeia leaving the APC, the APC-NPO war or anything else? I haven't seen OOC shitslinging here (tho I admit I didn't pay too much attention).

[Wymondham]

Snip

Hear Hear

[Pierconium]

So it isn’t that the NPO is incapable of change, it is that Lazarus is incapable of change, then? You state that Lazarus is entrenched in its positions and that they will not alter, undoubtedly because those in power perpetuate such positions. We all know how NS politics works.

Lazarus has had to endure near constant change its whole existence (in large part due to the meddlings of the NPO) and thus its residents are adaptable and very capable of change. That we refuse to change on this issue is an active expression of our newfound independence from NPO influence, not a disability, and not a result of those in power. Meanwhile, it seems that the NPO feels significant pain making even the slightest change that is so routine to other regions.

I would also add that our delegate, vice delegate, and foreign affairs minister all deferred to the voices of the residents of the region to determine our relations with the NPO. Your assumptions about "those in power" in Lazarus are either misguided or ignorant.

Deferring in a vote and maintaining neutrality in discussion elsewhere aren’t the same thing, but good try. I’m not stating that they should be neutral, but I’m also not naive enough to think that those in power don’t influence the populace. Maybe you are, you have proven yourself to be so numerous times in the past so I will take that as a given. But not me.

As to the rest, it is a bit disingenuous for anyone to claim that the list I provided is ‘routine’ for other regions and slight changes. In the span of three months significant changes to all levels of NPO society have taken place with tangible changes. That isn’t something that is common in most regions, even those that undergo forced change. So no, you are incorrect. That deliberate refusal to acknowledge the change is part of the problem. But, Lazarus has the right to be obtuse.

[Pierconium]

This is NationStates and in this particular battle, there are no "good" guys.

What's killed GP is a number of things and one of them, most definitively, is believing the only way to get rid of an IC enemy is the OOC route. Most of us turn a blind eye when on of our own does something "wrong" while crucifying our opponents for a papercut. No one is willing to have clear visible standards that are universally applicable (no matter how popular or unpopular the players are) and a system where those who have made a mistake that isn't egregious can come back. Or even to say, "this is bad if anyone does it including my bff and my left nut."

Here's the thing, NSGP used to be like high school with cliques, salt, drama and players chose to indulge in that. Or if the high school metaphor doesn't work for you - it used to be like real politics with the cliques, salt, drama, and clapbacks. Now it's being overrun by the special snowflakes who use OOC to achieve IC gains and its killed the game. Call someone "lame" and they bring in OOC issues that have no place in the game as a response, call someone "petty" and they threaten to quit the game unless the player is banned. The players defending some of these players are the same players who are okay with some really OOC bad behavior.

We can't have an IC discussion\battle\argument on Discord without some random tool trying to bring in OOC issues. NSGP has been spayed and neutered. Can players with authority and respect in the game actually get together in an OOC meeting, put aside their petty IC\cross OOC mayhem, and make a list of concrete and specific behaviors and actions and consequences that are publicly visible to all? And then follow through on them?

It's 2019 and while I still believe in miracles, I'm not holding out for this one.

No offense... but what does this have to do with Europeia, Europeia leaving the APC, the APC-NPO war or anything else? I haven't seen OOC shitslinging here (tho I admit I didn't pay too much attention).

I think that certain aspects of the war are definitively motivated by OOC issues. I personally think Europeia separated themselves from that component and sought out tangible war objectives, which have been met (unfortunate Godwin issues aside). The decision by some others to push for a perpetual state of war that has no realistic hope of success in order to try and destroy a community certainly has a bit of a taint to it, at least for me personally. Others have tried to smear players by claiming IC actions mean OOC intentional offences. I think this is part of what Escade refers to and it is relevant to the discussion of Europeia leaving the more toxic elements of the APC behind. Just my opinion on it.

[Galiantus III]

Lazarus has had to endure near constant change its whole existence (in large part due to the meddlings of the NPO) and thus its residents are adaptable and very capable of change. That we refuse to change on this issue is an active expression of our newfound independence from NPO influence, not a disability, and not a result of those in power. Meanwhile, it seems that the NPO feels significant pain making even the slightest change that is so routine to other regions.

I would also add that our delegate, vice delegate, and foreign affairs minister all deferred to the voices of the residents of the region to determine our relations with the NPO. Your assumptions about "those in power" in Lazarus are either misguided or ignorant.

Deferring in a vote and maintaining neutrality in discussion elsewhere aren’t the same thing, but good try. I’m not stating that they should be neutral, but I’m also not naive enough to think that those in power don’t influence the populace. Maybe you are, you have proven yourself to be so numerous times in the past so I will take that as a given. But not me.

As to the rest, it is a bit disingenuous for anyone to claim that the list I provided is ‘routine’ for other regions and slight changes. In the span of three months significant changes to all levels of NPO society have taken place with tangible changes. That isn’t something that is common in most regions, even those that undergo forced change. So no, you are incorrect. That deliberate refusal to acknowledge the change is part of the problem. But, Lazarus has the right to be obtuse.

Actually, you weren't there for the extensive debates we had, and in fact the delegate and vice delegate leaned to the side of "let's not declare war, and try and be understanding ". However, so many citizens (myself included) were outraged at revelations of NPO involvement that the discussion went all the way to war and stayed there.

1. Other regions change WA delegates all the time, and for less.
2-3. Same for other government positions.
4. Apologies aren't a significant change - they're just words.
5. I can't dispute that your withdrawal of declaration of war on TBH is significant.
6. For now that's all words. It will take a few years before I trust that any actual change has taken place.
7-8. I'm glad you guys are working on internal problems and giving voice to your populace. Although I support having a legislature for citizens to have ownership of the region, I am against democratically elected WA delegates because I understand the strong imperative for security. That said, the NPO is new to the party on this concept, and again this is a routine change for many regions.
9. Glad to hear Francoism is out. If the NPO can make good and keep this change permanent, that is a significant change. It takes a lot to make a change to a core element of your culture.

So most of the NPO's changes are essentially routine, although I will grant a couple stated changes are significant enough to warrant if they stand the test of time. Unfortunately, the NPO has a reputation of acting in bad faith; sorry if we don't take claims of change seriously, but you guys had your chance numerous times before. We're not obtuse, we're rational and realist.