Nationstates Olympic Games Discussion Thread

[Free Republics]

I have a question for FFR.

For team sports rosters, we usually had a maximum number of players in the previous olympics, but in these olympiads we're allowed to have as much players as we want on our rosters?

For example in the World Cup (association football) I usually have a 27 men and women roster but in the last olympiads it was shortened to 18 players. And in the latest World Bowl, I think I have over 70 players on my Gridiron roster.

There is no maximum number of players on team sports rosters.

[Banija]

So w/ the NSCF over and AOCAFs not starting for a couple of weeks... A little bit of down time.

I shall take advantage of that to do the Banijan Olympic Trials. Largely a domestic thread thing, of course.

Of course, this will be a big time Bnaijan event. All kinds of athletes, participation in all kinds of individual events. And trials, of course, for select national teams.

During the event, there is an opportunity to showcase the national teams of Banija participating in the Olympiad. If anyone wants to send guest teams to the Olympic Trials to play any of the Banijan Olympic teams, please, send me a telegram.

Also- there's no hard timeline to this, as it will be RPed as I go and as I have time, of course, but it will be approximately within the next week or so is when it'll start.

Banijan teams that need opponents(each team needs 2-3).

Men's Soccer
Siovanija & Teusland
Darmen

Women's Soccer
Siovanija & Teusland
Darmen

Men's Basketball
Darmen
Benjamin Mark

Women's Basketball
Darmen
Benjamin Mark

Men's Baseball
Benjamin Mark

Women's Water Polo
Benjamin Mark

Men's Gridiron
Darmen
Benjamin Mark

Women's Volleyball
Darmen
Benjamin Mark

Men's Lacrosse
Northwest Kalactin
Darmen

Women's Handball
Benjamin Mark

So I apologize that this, largely, won't get done. Time commitment issues :/

I will make sure to get those matches that I have scheduled with foreign teams scorinated and up, however, for everyone else's sake.

[Liventia]

I realise I put discussion about the Ashford records in the wrong thread (the XIII OOC thread rather than here), so reposting here for good measure.

We do still have the issue of records that exist from the very first Games, Ashford, which pre-dates xkoranate. Many of these marks were based on the then-world records (which, in many cases, still stand in athletics). Xkoranate, by comparison, is based on RL Olympic performances.

As a result, in nearly 30 athletics and at least one cycling and two swimming events, there are records that may never be broken.

I propose the following:
1. Strip Ashford results of 'Olympic record' (OR) status. The next-best mark set after Ashford will become the official OR.
2. Recognise Ashford results that are stripped of OR status as 'Olympic best' marks (OB). This is to recognise the fact that those results were generated in good faith, and will acknowledge that they still have official recognition within the NS Olympics.

This will have the effect of making many athletics events have records that are once again breakable. To have 30 athletics events with records that will never be broken under our current scorination methods is not exactly great.

Thoughts welcome.

[Kelssek]

I don't see how converting the Olympic records from the first Games w/o xkorinate to a standard that has been used with the program is different from changing over from old records set in Imperial distances to ones set in metric distances. In my research, I found that U.S. college and H.S. still use yards for their races, so their times are much different than international records that use meters. ICly that could be the RP justification for the use of these newer times.

Purely as a matter of information, this has a lot to do with the fact that lots of American pools were/are built in yards, and that country's entrenched usage of the imperial system in general. Of course, they do have "Olympic size" pools there, but metres are longer than yards so while you can put a bulkhead into 25/50m pool to make it into 25/50 yards when you need that distance, going the other way involves an excavator.

I reiterate my suggestion that we could have a set of NSOC-endorsed files where the "best" datapoint (say, 0.972, which is the relevant datapoint in the women's 100m backstroke file) is set to be the RL world record time.

[Liventia]

I reiterate my suggestion that we could have a set of NSOC-endorsed files where the "best" datapoint (say, 0.972, which is the relevant datapoint in the women's 100m backstroke file) is set to be the RL world record time.

As I said in the other thread, I'm not entirely against that, but I'm not fully comfortable with doing that either especially in athletics, where a lot of standing RLWRs were probably set by dopers in the late 80s and RL performances haven't got close in the modern day.

As it stands, I don't think we need to do it for swimming. Quite a few of the existing swimming NSORs are better than the RLORs and RLWRs anyway because of that 0.02… in the xml files which leaves space for a result better than the "best" datapoint.

[Todd McCloud]

I pointed out in my RP post that one of the records are wrong. Last Olympiad, I made two tables:

List of Olympic Records

List of Olympic Records (including Ashford records)

They'd need to be updated for the Provinsk / Novonaya results, of course. Perhaps we could consider the first list the official list, and the second one with the Ashford list as either unofficial or all-time?

[Liventia]

I pointed out in my RP post that one of the records are wrong.

((*Note: Ilo Yeskuviye set the 200m backstroke record, not 100m. Arnie Dagen (ETM) - Provinsk should be the sole record holder. Ilo still co-holds the 200m backstroke record. Despite the above being incorrect, I decided to roll with it RP-wise))

It's correct in the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... J/pubhtml#

I believe FFR mis-read.

Last Olympiad, I made two tables:

List of Olympic Records

List of Olympic Records (including Ashford records)

They'd need to be updated for the Provinsk / Novonaya results, of course. Perhaps we could consider the first list the official list, and the second one with the Ashford list as either unofficial or all-time?

Not just Provinsk (and Aeropag XI) results, but also the missing records from Lasft etc (e.g. women's pole vault at 5.05 metres, which also overtakes the Ashford record). The spreadsheet, as far as I'm concerned, is 99% accurate. I won't claim it's 100% accurate because as we've seen, records do get missed, but I spent literally six hours going back through every Games, so I'm pretty confident in it. Until the wiki is updated with all the missing records, I'm against considering it 'the official list'.

But I'd be for removing the Ashford results, of course.

[Savojarna]

I reiterate my suggestion that we could have a set of NSOC-endorsed files where the "best" datapoint (say, 0.972, which is the relevant datapoint in the women's 100m backstroke file) is set to be the RL world record time.

As I said in the other thread, I'm not entirely against that, but I'm not fully comfortable with doing that either especially in athletics, where a lot of standing RLWRs were probably set by dopers in the late 80s and RL performances haven't got close in the modern day.

As it stands, I don't think we need to do it for swimming. Quite a few of the existing swimming NSORs are better than the RLORs and RLWRs anyway because of that 0.02… in the xml files which leaves space for a result better than the "best" datapoint.

Does that matter? I think it's perfectly fine if the times are slightly better than RL - for example, a Men's 100m WR of something like 9.52 is conceivable in real life and it may just not have happened yet. NS could be slightly faster in getting there in the same way that we were slightly faster to get to a lot of technological developments. But we could also agree to set it to smth like the "WR of the 21st century" or something like that.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

As I said in the other thread, I'm not entirely against that, but I'm not fully comfortable with doing that either especially in athletics, where a lot of standing RLWRs were probably set by dopers in the late 80s and RL performances haven't got close in the modern day.

As it stands, I don't think we need to do it for swimming. Quite a few of the existing swimming NSORs are better than the RLORs and RLWRs anyway because of that 0.02… in the xml files which leaves space for a result better than the "best" datapoint.

Does that matter? I think it's perfectly fine if the times are slightly better than RL - for example, a Men's 100m WR of something like 9.52 is conceivable in real life and it may just not have happened yet. NS could be slightly faster in getting there in the same way that we were slightly faster to get to a lot of technological developments. But we could also agree to set it to smth like the "WR of the 21st century" or something like that.

^^^this

Ns is not RL, and will never be RL.

[Liventia]

On a completely separate note, anyone who:
1. Has some prior hosting experience;
2. Hasn't yet been put off by the amount of work FFR (and all Olympic hosts, for that matter) is having to do; and
3. Is interested in adding a Winter Olympics to their hosting CV,
please feel free to telegram me.

I'm planning a bid for the next Winter Games around October/November time, and while I'm perfectly happy to go solo, anyone who would like to put themselves forward as a potential co-host is welcome to do so via TG.

*Please note that expressions of interest to co-host are simply that and I may still opt to bid solo ultimately. But I will consider all offers.

[Kelssek]

We're kind of shading more into a question of whether we're scorinating based on correct data, and what we should consider to be correct. Perhaps the simplest solution is to just handwave the Ashford records away, saving the trouble of messing with the sport files. If people insist on IC justification it could be due to measurement or equipment errors or something like that.

[Cassadaigua]

The Ashford records should not just be wiped away. They were statistical feats that were fairly accomplished during that Olympiad and should always be acknowledged if we are going to keep a record book of this.

However, do we put in the "asterisk" for them? Sure. I actually like Liventia's proposal as still acknowledging them as "Olympic best", even if they will no longer be considered our records.

[Electrum]

I would support a wholesale update to the xkoranate files as a whole, which can be made publicly available to the community (and distributed by CH if he sees fit). They were based on the Beijing results (?), and so much has happened in the intervening years / games that it will eventually become impossible to set new records since the way we generate results is based on the old data set. This of course, would be a massive undertaking, but it could be doable with some community effort.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

I would support a wholesale update to the xkoranate files as a whole, which can be made publicly available to the community (and distributed by CH if he sees fit). They were based on the Beijing results (?), and so much has happened in the intervening years / games that it will eventually become impossible to set new records since the way we generate results is based on the old data set. This of course, would be a massive undertaking, but it could be doable with some community effort.

I agree it needs to happen, however it really cannot be left up to one person to do most/all of the work.

[Kelssek]

This is a good discussion and in light of where it's going, here's my thoughts at this point.

1. All things considered there is probably not a need to update the xkoranate sport files in the timed events. Many of our Olympic, non-Ashford records are already better than RL world records and it makes no sense to move further and further away from reality in this regard.

2. I do not agree with the notion that it's a problem if records stand for a long time and are not broken often. They are not easily or frequently broken in real life for the very simple reason that a) it's hard b) in 2019 the marginal gains of better training, equipment, sport science etc. are small, c) some existing records were set under different rules (when swimming allowed those "sharksuits") or when doping control was less stringent.

3. A different issue is that the records may become at some point technically impossible to break due to the scorinators. I am now inclined to think that this is realistic and not really a problem - see point 2.

4. We should acknowledge the Ashford records. The issue seems to be about "official" recognition. I am ambivalent about the move to set the Ashford records apart. Another suggestion I don't think has yet been made is to handle it ICly, where media reports refer to "post-Ashford" bests.

Separately, since we are now talking about this, the area where I can say xkoranate does need an update is in scorination formats. In particular, 3x3 basketball, shooting, and weightlifting, which are new sports and/or have adopted new formats. Whereas it's fairly simple to make a sport file for skateboarding, for those 3 in particular we probably need CH to look into it.

[Apox]

I would support a wholesale update to the xkoranate files as a whole, which can be made publicly available to the community (and distributed by CH if he sees fit). They were based on the Beijing results (?), and so much has happened in the intervening years / games that it will eventually become impossible to set new records since the way we generate results is based on the old data set. This of course, would be a massive undertaking, but it could be doable with some community effort.

A github could be set up which could host the "sports" files of xkoranate, which could then be downloaded and replace the current sports section in xkoranate. This way the xkoranate files could be a community updated effort and the process of having new sports added into the db could be done easier. I don't know if the current license for xkoranate will allow this or if that's a bit of a faux pas, don't want to take any credit for xkoranate away from CH.

[Electrum]

This is a good discussion and in light of where it's going, here's my thoughts at this point.

1. All things considered there is probably not a need to update the xkoranate sport files in the timed events. Many of our Olympic, non-Ashford records are already better than RL world records and it makes no sense to move further and further away from reality in this regard.

2. I do not agree with the notion that it's a problem if records stand for a long time and are not broken often. They are not easily or frequently broken in real life for the very simple reason that a) it's hard b) in 2019 the marginal gains of better training, equipment, sport science etc. are small, c) some existing records were set under different rules (when swimming allowed those "sharksuits") or when doping control was less stringent.

3. A different issue is that the records may become at some point technically impossible to break due to the scorinators. I am now inclined to think that this is realistic and not really a problem - see point 2.

4. We should acknowledge the Ashford records. The issue seems to be about "official" recognition. I am ambivalent about the move to set the Ashford records apart. Another suggestion I don't think has yet been made is to handle it ICly, where media reports refer to "post-Ashford" bests.

Separately, since we are now talking about this, the area where I can say xkoranate does need an update is in scorination formats. In particular, 3x3 basketball, shooting, and weightlifting, which are new sports and/or have adopted new formats. Whereas it's fairly simple to make a sport file for skateboarding, for those 3 in particular we probably need CH to look into it.

1. Yes and many are not. There are a lot of events where the real record is about 3 - a few dozen seconds faster than our own records (sometimes including, and sometimes excluding the Ashford results), which like I said, is problematic. Of course, I am not advocating for changes to sports files which don't need it.

2. I concede this point insofar this is true for some events, but like I said, some events are way off the mark as to where they should be.

4. I like the way FFR put it as pre and post Ashford.

5. As part of my wholesale updates, I was also thinking of updating sports which had changed their scoring formats over the years, and of course, the addition of new sports. As far as I'm aware, I'm the only one who's created new files for the new Winter olympics events such as slopestyle, big air, and some of those are already outdated with new scoring formats. I do recall CH updating some files for new formats in the most recent Aeropag Olympics, but I'm pretty sure he hasn't released them publicly yet.

[Liventia]

On a completely separate note, anyone who:
1. Has some prior hosting experience;
2. Hasn't yet been put off by the amount of work FFR (and all Olympic hosts, for that matter) is having to do; and
3. Is interested in adding a Winter Olympics to their hosting CV,
please feel free to telegram me.

I'm planning a bid for the next Winter Games around October/November time, and while I'm perfectly happy to go solo, anyone who would like to put themselves forward as a potential co-host is welcome to do so via TG.

*Please note that expressions of interest to co-host are simply that and I may still opt to bid solo ultimately. But I will consider all offers.

I've already had one or two people message me about this, but if you haven't yet and are interested in a winter Olympics cohost thingamajig, please TG me or PM me on the NS Sports Discord (@Aels). I'm looking at bidding to host the Games towards the end of the year, around November time.

[Todd McCloud]

Considering the Thirteenth Olympiad is complete, I've updated the All-Time Medal Table

Liventia, I'll update the Olympic Records in the coming weeks.

[Wochaystein]

Speaking of this if we want to have a September Olympics someone should bid

Unless FR's plans have changed their will be an Olympics in December. Their's no rush, I want an Olympics as much as you but I can't bid for it as I don't have any hosting experience or time. Obviously the people with the experience are busy, so we'll just have to be patient.

What months do the Winter Olympics usually take place?

[The Sherpa Empire]

Unless FR's plans have changed their will be an Olympics in December. Their's no rush, I want an Olympics as much as you but I can't bid for it as I don't have any hosting experience or time. Obviously the people with the experience are busy, so we'll just have to be patient.

What months do the Winter Olympics usually take place?

Whenever we find a suitable host and they have time to run it. It needs an experienced host with a lot of time on their hands.

[Liventia]

Unless FR's plans have changed their will be an Olympics in December. Their's no rush, I want an Olympics as much as you but I can't bid for it as I don't have any hosting experience or time. Obviously the people with the experience are busy, so we'll just have to be patient.

What months do the Winter Olympics usually take place?

Our Games normally correspond to the RL Northern Hemisphere seasons, with the caveat that there needs to be a reliable, trustworthy host for each event. Therefore they do sometimes have to move, thus us having just completed a Summer Olympics (delayed from last August or so) in February.

The Winter Olympics are normally held in Jan/Feb/Mar, although this year it will probably be some time from September to December. There's nothing stopping someone from bidding now to hold it in March or April, except people will be burnt out from the Summer Olympics and probably wouldn't take too kindly to such a bid.

[West Phoenicia]

https://inside.fei.org/news/fei-general ... le-changes

This is actually a good read. It is in regards to reforms in Equestrian for Tokyo 2020 and beyond. It list the changes being made. Some include 3 riders instead of 4, no longer a drop score as well as some changes that doesn't concern rp.

[Free Republics]

I've been asked by a (very highly qualified) prospective bidder to arrange a shorter than usual bidding period for the upcoming Winter Olympics so if anyone else intends to put together a bid I would recommend starting on it as soon as possible because there is a good chance that the bidding process will be beginning soon and moving quickly.

[Vilita]

Candidature for the XIV Olympic Winter Games: Neverend, Liventia and Yeaddin, Vilita

About the Candidate Cities

NEVEREND, LIVENTIA
Neverend started off as a small ski resort town, but has gradually boomed over the years, and was declared to be a city by an act of Parliament in 2149. Despite its status as a city, Neverend has no currently-operating civilian airport (the Kenneth G Hardweiss World Airport, opened for the Seventh Winter Olympics, has since been turned into an air force base); the closest international airport is a 50-minute drive away in the former national capital of City Centre.

Athletes and officials will fly into the City Centre Patrick Danahue International Airport, named after the late assassinated former Prime Minister, and be provided with transport to the Olympic Village in Neverend. Fans holding Games tickets can choose to fly into Patrick Danahue Airport or Orean International from where free charter coach services, leaving every 90 minutes, will be provided to transport fans to hotels in Neverend. There is also a train service from City Centre to Neverend which leaves every 14 minutes—but for the duration of the Games will be reduced to 7 minutes at peak times, while services from Orean will leave every 11 minutes during Games time.

Neverend, which at a metropolitan area of 281 sq. km is the smallest city in the country, has its own metro train and public bus system, which will be free to all ticketholders, athletes and officials during the Games. There are three major shopping centres in the city, all located within a 15-minute walk of the Olympic Village. A whole host of nightclubs, bars and restaurants are also available in the city.

There is a total ban on outdoor public smoking and outdoor public drinking, including in bars and restaurants. In Neverend, there is a (redundant) specific ban on smoking within 500 metres of an educational institution, and a ban on drinking within 1 km of one. The drugs trade is banned, although casual use is not actively policed. The minimum age for smoking and drinking in the country is 17. Firearms are banned, although athletes requiring the use of firearms for biathlon events are granted a waiver to carry and import their weapons.

Neverend hosted the seventh Olympic Winter Games, and has hosted two Winter World Paralympic Games since in addition to a number of Qualifying Events for the Games of the XII Olympiad. The Ferrandieu Ski Resort has also hosted legs on the Alpine Skiing World Cup.

---

YEADDIN, VILITA
Yeaddin is located in the Vilitan North-East between the Parra Kala Mountains and the Turviliki Sea. It is generally considered the 5th Largest City in Vilita though it has fluctuated between 4th and 7th in actual size. Yeaddin has a sister city of similar geographical, footprint and population size in Terrarokka with the satellite city of Nusira Lionta between them on the outskirts of Terrarokka.

During Winter season, Yeaddin becomes one of the least tropical major cities in Vilita with cool air from the Royal Quebecois region. As the cool air arrives in Northern Vilita it interacts with the tropical air trapped in the Morata Valley as well as the Parra Kala Mountains shielding much of mainland Vilita from the cooler temperatures. Yeaddin bears the brunt of the force of the cool winter temperatures though nearby cities to the south Nusira Lionta and Terrarokka also have smaller periods of notably cooler climate as a result of the same effect.

Yeaddin's Air Transportation hub is accessible from most Atlantian Oceania based international terminals. Those traveling to Yeaddin from outside of Atlantian Oceania will likely fly in to Alikki-Corra before catching local transportation - either Air, Land or Sea, to get up to Yeaddin on the opposite side of Vilita's Main Island.

Vilitan Law is not well documented nor strictly enforced in the case of minor infractions. However when it is enforced it is typically done so with a preponderance of evidence with the Vilitan Orbital Intelligence Agency (VOIA) permitted to intervene even in cases of petty crime if the accusing law officer so wishes to pursue the event. Major infractions or repeat offenders tend to be dealt with swiftly and seriously. Security and Spotters will be present at each Olympic Venue where it is more likely for such Laws to be enforced even on a first offense. Traditional weapons are typically banned however technology driven weapons which are registered and have the ability to be disabled remotely by VOIA are permitted in some instances.

Yeaddin has been a host city for numerous World Cup, Cup of Harmony, AOCAF, AOHC and UICA final among other competition and as such maintains an appropriate infrastructure to host major sporting competitions.

---

Venues
Six venues in Neverend and Four venues in Yeaddin will be used for the Games. Neverend will hold the alpine skiing, biathlon, cross-country skiing, curling, freestyle skiing, Nordic combined, ski jumping, and snowboarding medal events, and snow volleyball demonstration events. Yeaddin will hold the bobsleigh, figure skating, ice hockey, luge, short track speed skating, skeleton, and speed skating medal events as well as the bandy and Ice Racing demonstration events.

There will be two Opening and Closing Ceremonies, one each in each cluster respectively. In Liventia, the Stade Grande Olympique, built for the seventh Olympic Winter Games, will serve this purpose. Medal ceremonies will be held in the Olympic Park, co-located with the stadium. In Vilita, the Opening Ceremonies will be held at the Lirai Asku Castle and the closing ceremonies will be held at the Kolósaio Vóreios Yeaddin. Medal ceremonies in Vilita will be held at the venue where the medal was earned.

NEVEREND
Stade Grande Olympique (Ceremonies, snow volleyball demonstration)
Neverend Ferrandieu Ski Resort (Alpine, snowboard)
National Biathlon Centre (Biathlon, cross-country skiing)
Ferrandieu Ski Sports Centre (Nordic combined, ski jumping, freestyle skiing)
Neverend Curling Club (Curling)

YEADDIN
Lirai Asku Castle (Ice Hockey)
Parra Kala Sliding Complex (Bobsleigh, luge, skeleton)
Yeaddin Ice Centre (Ice Hockey, Figure Skating, short track)
Kolósaio Vóreios (Speed skating, demonstration events)
Note: Additional Ice Hockey venues outside of Yeaddin will be added based on number of competing delegations.

---

Timing

Estimated between 15 Oct - 5th Nov (if we're split between two hosts we can probably get it done in the traditional 17 days) - recommend 17 Oct-3 Nov as the given window

Scorination/RP Bonus

The latest version of xkoranate, as of the opening ceremony, will be used for all events. New files will also be created as needed in order to reflect current RL Olympic formats and judging, etc.

Scorination will happen daily at a time announced by the hosts.

A min-max avoidance bonus (MMAB) will be used and will be weighted at 20% percent of the total RP bonus. The MMAB will be based upon the standard deviation of a delegation's skill modifiers and the size of the delegation.

1–10 entries: Full MMAB for any STDEV
11–35 entries: Full MMAB for STDEV of 35 or less
36–75 entries: Full MMAB for STDEV of 30 or less
76–150 entries: Full MMAB for STDEV of 25 or less
151+ entries: Full MMAB for STDEV of 20 or less

75% of the RP bonus will be split between a Cumulative and Degrading portion with RPs posted on the current match day having a higher weighting than earlier RPs. Roster bonus will be counted as part of the RP bonus for the first cutoff after they are posted and as 5% of the total RP bonus. The host delegations will receive its MMAB per the same formula as every other delegation and receive RP bonus per any RPs posted by the hosts, plus 50% of the day's highest RP bonus to mirror the 'host effect'. RP bonuses will be calculated using a spreadsheet before being entered into xkoranate.

Event List
The full base list and extended list will be contested as medal events, with full gender equality.

Demonstration events will be contested in Bandy, Ice Racing and Snow Volleyball. Other demonstration events may be proposed but are not guaranteed to be accepted. Snow volleyball events will be scorinated using a modified beach volleyball file (to restrict scoring to 15 points per set rather than 21).

Signups and entry limits
Only signups in the xkoranate input file format (comma-delimited) will be accepted. The standard skill modifiers consisting of all whole numbers from 0 to 100 will be used, with the standard average skill limit of 50.

The entry limit will be 250 entries per delegation (301 is the technical maximum), and 400 per user (maximum 2 delegations per user). For any combined delegations or unified teams, the entry limit of 250 will not apply, so long as any individual user is still limited to a maximum of 400 entries across a maximum of 2 delegations including the unified delegation.

Demonstration event signups do not count towards the entry limit, and demonstration event skill modifier averages will be considered separately from medal event averages. The average skill of all medal event entries and the average skill of demonstration event entries must both be 50 or less. All puppet entries must be declared.

Puppets will be treated as separate entities, for RP bonus purposes.

Unified Teams, consisting of more than 1 nation/entity competing as a single delegation, will be treated as a single nation for RP bonus purposes, with RPs by any of their component entities counting toward their bonus.

For the purposes of the medal table and team events, athletes from Unified Teams will be permitted to participate as a team even if they are from different nations.