Transgender Discussion Thread III: Vote in our poll!

[Farnhamia]

Funny thing, the thing that ha been shown to "fix" the ailment is transition and acceptance by peers and family.

Any kind of mental disorder can be fixed. You just need to put aside morality, besides a lobotomy can cure them just as good.

*** Warned for trolling ***

[Kingdom Of Hungaria]

Any kind of mental disorder can be fixed. You just need to put aside morality, besides a lobotomy can cure them just as good.

Stop trying to get hot takes, what's wrong with accepting people. Does it hurt you? There are two BIOLOGICAL sexes. gender=/=sex. being in between, nonbinary, isn't biological, like a sex, it's mental, like a gender.

Mental Retardation, possibly. Those genders are completely made up by lunatics who wish to stand out just a little bit.

[Kingdom Of Hungaria]

Any kind of mental disorder can be fixed. You just need to put aside morality, besides a lobotomy can cure them just as good.

*** Warned for trolling ***

Not trolling.

[Farnhamia]

Stop trying to get hot takes, what's wrong with accepting people. Does it hurt you? There are two BIOLOGICAL sexes. gender=/=sex. being in between, nonbinary, isn't biological, like a sex, it's mental, like a gender.

Mental Retardation, possibly. Those genders are completely made up by lunatics who wish to stand out just a little bit.

*** Warned for trolling. ***

And please don't try the "It's my opinion" defense. You're entitled to your opinion as long as you express it in a civil manner. Calling transgender people mentally retarded (a term not much used these days) and lunatics and recommending they be lobotomized, is not civil discourse.

[Kingdom Of Hungaria]

Mental Retardation, possibly. Those genders are completely made up by lunatics who wish to stand out just a little bit.

*** Warned for trolling. ***

And please don't try the "It's my opinion" defense. You're entitled to your opinion as long as you express it in a civil manner. Calling transgender people mentally retarded (a term not much used these days) and lunatics and recommending they be lobotomized, is not civil discourse.

Sorry.....*subhuman would be more appropriate

[The Mercurians of Hermes]

*** Warned for trolling ***

Not trolling.

Why would they fucking wanna stand out??? Do you think gender dysphoria is a joke? People can be driven to commit suicide from bullies like you. Go turn that hate into love, or you're not welcome here.

[Kingdom Of Hungaria]

Not trolling.

Why would they fucking wanna stand out??? Do you think gender dysphoria is a joke? People can be driven to commit suicide from bullies like you. Go turn that hate into love, or you're not welcome here.

Yes I do.

[The Mercurians of Hermes]

*** Warned for trolling. ***

And please don't try the "It's my opinion" defense. You're entitled to your opinion as long as you express it in a civil manner. Calling transgender people mentally retarded (a term not much used these days) and lunatics and recommending they be lobotomized, is not civil discourse.

Sorry.....*subhuman would be more appropriate

That's actually not an opinion. that's a lie. Truth isn't a democracy. stop using the card says moops strategy.

[Germanyt]

Not trolling.

Why would they fucking wanna stand out??? Do you think gender dysphoria is a joke? People can be driven to commit suicide from bullies like you. Go turn that hate into love, or you're not welcome here.

Yelling isnt going to help people think you are rational or stable.

[The Mercurians of Hermes]

Why would they fucking wanna stand out??? Do you think gender dysphoria is a joke? People can be driven to commit suicide from bullies like you. Go turn that hate into love, or you're not welcome here.

Yelling isnt going to help people think you are rational or stable.

Yeah, I agree, but it makes me very angry, having trans friends.

[Kingdom Of Hungaria]

Pogo booga

[West Leas Oros 2]

Pogo booga

What does that even mean?

[Neutraligon]

*** Warned for trolling. ***

And please don't try the "It's my opinion" defense. You're entitled to your opinion as long as you express it in a civil manner. Calling transgender people mentally retarded (a term not much used these days) and lunatics and recommending they be lobotomized, is not civil discourse.

Sorry.....*subhuman would be more appropriate

Since you have continued to troll in this thread despite prior warnings you get a *** 1 day ban for trolling ***
This ban applies to you the player, not just this nation

[Nilrahrarfan]

There are hundreds of "genders" that are just there to clog up the gender system, and may actually cause harm to actual transgenders. We need to help the transgenders by recognizing that fake genders will just hurt the real trans people, just as much as the Soviets hurt trans people.

[Reichsstaaten von Germania]

There are hundreds of "genders" that are just there to clog up the gender system, and may actually cause harm to actual transgenders. We need to help the transgenders by recognizing that fake genders will just hurt the real trans people, just as much as the Soviets hurt trans people.

True

[Farnhamia]

There are hundreds of "genders" that are just there to clog up the gender system, and may actually cause harm to actual transgenders. We need to help the transgenders by recognizing that fake genders will just hurt the real trans people, just as much as the Soviets hurt trans people.

True

Posting past a ban loses you this nation and the one that was banned. Bans apply to you, not just the nations. I'm going to be nice and let you off with a slap on the wrist.

[Khasinkonia]

Well, that was quick. Now, shall we move from that blood-boiling topic to one that’s more plain bloody?
Fellow trans girls, what do y’all think about periods? Do y’all experience period envy, and, if so, it genuinely the period itself or more the implications of having a period(womb, fertility, etc)?

[Threlizdun]

There are hundreds of "genders" that are just there to clog up the gender system, and may actually cause harm to actual transgenders. We need to help the transgenders by recognizing that fake genders will just hurt the real trans people, just as much as the Soviets hurt trans people.

Yeah no, nonbinary people exist in a wide number of non-western cultures and have existed for millenia. Nonbinary people are welcome members of the trans community and deserve the love and support of binary trans people.

Well, that was quick. Now, shall we move from that blood-boiling topic to one that’s more plain bloody?
Fellow trans girls, what do y’all think about periods? Do y’all experience period envy, and, if so, it genuinely the period itself or more the implications of having a period(womb, fertility, etc)?

Years ago I sometimes got sad that I would never have periods because it made me feel like "less of a woman", but I've since recognized that having a menstrual cycle is not some vital component of femininity, and that not having them doesn't make me any less of a woman.

[Dumb Ideologies]

There's a categorical difference and differences of experience between people who transition due to a pressing and extended struggle of bodily discomfort and those who do so for purely lifestyle reasons. There's a difference again between people who wish to transition from one of the binary identities to another and those who wish to manufacture a third category.

Honestly this "truscum" and "transtrenders" vocab is a natural consequence of both society and "the movement" trying to lump together all "gender variant" people into one category, which is bound to be contentious because different experiences breed different priorities and worldviews.

I'm not sure you're responding to my post or to what came before, but I did not mean to say that all experiences are the same. I'd defend the claim that things are interlinked, that they share similarities, but not that they are identical.

And if the "the movement" thing in your post meant to refer to what I was just saying, it honestly feels a little like a bit of a strawman rebuttal, subsuming what I just said to a more generalizing argument that I did not make.

Not responding directly to you, but generally on the idea of "truscum".

My point is that when people talk about "truscum" or "trenders" it's usually a rhetorical move, putting forward a sockpuppet character that people are then challenged to disassociate themselves from. These groups are vanishingly small in actually-existing "pure" form, so talking about them is usually about trying to create a binary of "agree with my position" or "be one of THEM". In reality we all have a wide variety of opinions on what gender is, what the transition pathway should look like, what needs to change socially etc.

I'll give myself as an example - as a treat you can have my undiluted views, meme-free, for one night only

I'm binary. I think the people who waffle on online about a gender identity that's several lines long in description or that contains elements that having nothing to do with gender are a very small section of the community, and one that can be fairly disparaged without it becoming a slippery slope in which anyone who isn't binary gets chased by giant erasers.

I don't like queer theory and notions of performative gender. These ideas have largely been formulated and pushed by dysphoria-free and largely middle-class university-educated post-Foucaudlian libertarians who will never need to personally access a public healthcare system for treatment due to the nature of their identity. I think that this, as well as resentment towards the transsexuals who have historically dominated the "T" section of the community, is actually a big factor in why they argue what they do; to the point that it can't be analytically ignored without losing something in the analysis.

My experience of gender identity has been very much related to dysphoria and the body. The idea of "gender as drag" and performance isn't only literally the worst language they could possibly choose, but it's entirely alien to me. When people start talking about this being "the community's" theory of gender I feel like a faction of people who have very different life experiences to me are pushing a theory that's both wrong and politically functions to erode support for state-funded treatment. Queer theorists and moral crusaders of the religious or TERF flavour are, to me, uncomfortably close on a gender theory horseshoe. I actually mind these people a lot more than I mind outright transphobes to be honest, because at least those are simple and you can talk with everything on the table. With the queer theorists I'm unsure whether it's a case of them being so self-centred and smug that they genuinely think their club-handed bungle of an intervention into the debate is in our best interest and that we transitioners/SUBMITTERS TO BIOPOWER just don't understand ourselves, or they're slippery enough to tell a very very big lie with the active intention of fucking people over. At the same time, a lot of the people who don't have dysphoria either aren't political or don't hold to that view, and I'm fine with them. Queer theorists are generally non-dysphoric, but most non-dysphoric trans people aren't queer theorists.

Similarly, I would describe my politics as - though, yeah, it's problematic - somewhat conservative. My history has been one where I've transitioned partly to fit in better with wider society, and as a collectivist rather than an individualist I think society is about compromise and change is best achieved through wider societal dialogue and, yes, trying to be a respectable and respectful as possible. So while I have no problem whatsoever with non-binary people, I'm not going to use pronouns beyond "they" because creating a novel pronoun and trying to force it into the language when there's a perfectly serviceable neutral pronoun available feels to me like bordering on narcissistic in its extreme individualistic position on the relationship between individual and society. I can't honestly sign up to that.

This is a combination of views that has got the label thrown in my direction on occasion elsewhere, but it's pretty far from the straw "truscumite" who hisses incoherently from bigotry about the "non-transies" trying to steal the preciousssss. I feel like a lot of the snarls, whether "truscum" or "trender", emanate from natural disagreements based on different experiences, high tensions on issues relating to fundamental identity, and the impossible pressure to ignore difference when subgroups are always going to be trying to grab the wheel to steer it towards their own personal interests and politics, as is life.

[Hanafuridake]

My experience of gender identity has been very much related to dysphoria and the body. The idea of "gender as drag" and performance isn't only literally the worst language they could possibly choose, but it's entirely alien to me. When people start talking about this being "the community's" theory of gender I feel like a faction of people who have very different life experiences to me are pushing a theory that's both wrong and politically functions to erode support for state-funded treatment. Queer theorists and moral crusaders of the religious or TERF flavour are, to me, uncomfortably close on a gender theory horseshoe.

That's an extremely spot on analysis, from my experience. It's really frustrating trying to explain to someone demanding gender abolition that, no, transitioning would not become irrelevant to me were gender roles to be destroyed. It's made even more infuriating when these gender critical folks are cisgender people who conform perfectly to the masculinity/femininity spectrum, but we receive condemnation for trying to fit in.

[Threlizdun]

I'm not sure you're responding to my post or to what came before, but I did not mean to say that all experiences are the same. I'd defend the claim that things are interlinked, that they share similarities, but not that they are identical.

And if the "the movement" thing in your post meant to refer to what I was just saying, it honestly feels a little like a bit of a strawman rebuttal, subsuming what I just said to a more generalizing argument that I did not make.

Not responding directly to you, but generally on the idea of "truscum".

My point is that when people talk about "truscum" or "trenders" it's usually a rhetorical move, putting forward a sockpuppet character that people are then challenged to disassociate themselves from. These groups are vanishingly small in actually-existing "pure" form, so talking about them is usually about trying to create a binary of "agree with my position" or "be one of THEM". In reality we all have a wide variety of opinions on what gender is, what the transition pathway should look like, what needs to change socially etc.

I'll give myself as an example - as a treat you can have my undiluted views, meme-free, for one night only

I'm binary. I think the people who waffle on online about a gender identity that's several lines long in description or that contains elements that having nothing to do with gender are a very small section of the community, and one that can be fairly disparaged without it becoming a slippery slope in which anyone who isn't binary gets chased by giant erasers.

I don't like queer theory and notions of performative gender. These ideas have largely been formulated and pushed by dysphoria-free and largely middle-class university-educated post-Foucaudlian libertarians who will never need to personally access a public healthcare system for treatment due to the nature of their identity. I think that this, as well as resentment towards the transsexuals who have historically dominated the "T" section of the community, is actually a big factor in why they argue what they do; to the point that it can't be analytically ignored without losing something in the analysis.

My experience of gender identity has been very much related to dysphoria and the body. The idea of "gender as drag" and performance isn't only literally the worst language they could possibly choose, but it's entirely alien to me. When people start talking about this being "the community's" theory of gender I feel like a faction of people who have very different life experiences to me are pushing a theory that's both wrong and politically functions to erode support for state-funded treatment. Queer theorists and moral crusaders of the religious or TERF flavour are, to me, uncomfortably close on a gender theory horseshoe. I actually mind these people a lot more than I mind outright transphobes to be honest, because at least those are simple and you can talk with everything on the table. With the queer theorists I'm unsure whether it's a case of them being so self-centred and smug that they genuinely think their club-handed bungle of an intervention into the debate is in our best interest and that we transitioners/SUBMITTERS TO BIOPOWER just don't understand ourselves, or they're slippery enough to tell a very very big lie with the active intention of fucking people over. At the same time, a lot of the people who don't have dysphoria either aren't political or don't hold to that view, and I'm fine with them. Queer theorists are generally non-dysphoric, but most non-dysphoric trans people aren't queer theorists.

Similarly, I would describe my politics as - though, yeah, it's problematic - somewhat conservative. My history has been one where I've transitioned partly to fit in better with wider society, and as a collectivist rather than an individualist I think society is about compromise and change is best achieved through wider societal dialogue and, yes, trying to be a respectable and respectful as possible. So while I have no problem whatsoever with non-binary people, I'm not going to use pronouns beyond "they" because creating a novel pronoun and trying to force it into the language when there's a perfectly serviceable neutral pronoun available feels to me like bordering on narcissistic in its extreme individualistic position on the relationship between individual and society. I can't honestly sign up to that.

This is a combination of views that has got the label thrown in my direction on occasion elsewhere, but it's pretty far from the straw "truscumite". I feel like a lot of the snarls, whether "truscum" or "trender", emanate from natural disagreements based on different experiences, high tensions on issues relating to fundamental identity, and the impossible pressure to ignore difference when subgroups are always going to be trying to grab the wheel to steer it towards their own personal interests and politics, as is life.

I honestly haven't actually encountered many queer theorists that deligimitized people who suffer dysphoria or who want to medically transition. I personally strongly ascribe to queer liberationist positions, yet I also suffer dysphoria and have been medically transitioning for over a year now. I definitely have never seen people using queer theory to argue against trans healthcare, and am really sorry that you've encountered hostility in that regard.

The only times I've ever seen queer theory utilized against recognition of binary trans people or trans people with dsyphoria is from TERFS, whom have also tended to oppose most elements of queer theory aside from occasionally taking gender abolitionist stances or adopting "political lesbianism".

I'll also say that the idea of gender abolition can be highly varied depending on who you are talking to and how they personally understand it. For me, I would like to see gender roles abolished and an end to the hegemony of the Western gender binary as the dominant social understanding of gender. I don't wish to see the abolition of personal identities and the ways that they wish to express their gender, merely the removal of artificial constraints on how one may express their gender. I definitely don't believe that we need to all abandon our gender identities, nor do I thing that dysphoria would disappear in such a society. I believe gender dysphoria could be lessened if we moved to a society that didn't automatically gender people based on their physical characteristics, but the sense of alienation from one's own body certainly would likely still exist even without the immense social pressure trans people are under to transition if they ever want to be accepted for who they are.

[Khasinkonia]

My experience of gender identity has been very much related to dysphoria and the body. The idea of "gender as drag" and performance isn't only literally the worst language they could possibly choose, but it's entirely alien to me. When people start talking about this being "the community's" theory of gender I feel like a faction of people who have very different life experiences to me are pushing a theory that's both wrong and politically functions to erode support for state-funded treatment. Queer theorists and moral crusaders of the religious or TERF flavour are, to me, uncomfortably close on a gender theory horseshoe.

That's an extremely spot on analysis, from my experience. It's really frustrating trying to explain to someone demanding gender abolition that, no, transitioning would not become irrelevant to me were gender roles to be destroyed. It's made even more infuriating when these gender critical folks are cisgender people who conform perfectly to the masculinity/femininity spectrum, but we receive condemnation for trying to fit in.

I want no part in gender abolition, to be quite frank. I’m content with gender roles, just not the ones applied with me ngl.

[Cekoviu]

It is inefficient to debate people over things which will not change. It is more efficient to accept people for things that do no harm which will not change, as futile debate is inefficient. Further, happiness increases productivity. I rest my case.

They can helped to fix their ailment, accepting these “genders” is just further driving a wedge between people as everyone strives to stand out, to me there are only 2 genders male and female.

Wow haven't heard that one before

[Cekoviu]

Any kind of mental disorder can be fixed. You just need to put aside morality, besides a lobotomy can cure them just as good.

Stop trying to get hot takes, what's wrong with accepting people. Does it hurt you? There are two BIOLOGICAL sexes.

Still no. Intersex is a thing.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Stop trying to get hot takes, what's wrong with accepting people. Does it hurt you? There are two BIOLOGICAL sexes.

Still no. Intersex is a thing.

Isn’t it exceptionally rare, though?