Why do/don't you believe in a higher power? (Any HP)

[Tarsonis]

And how can you 100% trust science? Isn't science just a bunch of writings from strangers?

No, science is a method. One based on falsifiability, evidence, observation, and research (i.e. the opposite of religion).

Actually observation, research and evidence is mostly what I do as a theologian. Not completely removed.

[The Caleshan Valkyrie]

Two things:

Outside the universe = doesn’t exist.

Multiverse theorists would disagree.

Multiverse ‘theory’ hardly even qualifies as idle speculation.

You have no basis to ascribe traits to anything that we cannot observe quite simply BECAUSE they cannot be observed.

In ability to observe is not prove of nonexistence.

It is however eminently critical to proving actual existence. Without that evidence to prove the positive claim that your god exists, logic dictates a default to its negation and that we hold any such claims with the weight equivalent to onesuch as yourself stamping their feet and insisting that your imaginary friend DOES exist, durn it!

And just because I’ve dealt with this argument before: Trying to cast doubt on the efficacy of science and observation hurts your case more than it does mine. Best keep clear.

Sciencd is quite effective, but it has its limits. As I pointed out with the multiverse bit you subscribe to strict empiricism, but that’s not a position universally held by atheists let alone theists.

The existence of a speculative branch of discussion does not count as a counterproof. Multiverse concepts don’t even qualify as hypotheses.

Then there is no point to your continued posting in this thread.

The title of the thread is “Why do you/don’t you believe in God”. Not, “Theists prove God exists” not that anti-theists can tell the difference.

And the nature of this forum is that of debate and having your ideas challenged. You bring it up, you back it up. If you were not interested in actual debate, you could have just posted your first piece and left the thread never to return, satisfied that your say was had.

You’re still posting here though. Hm.

[Australian rePublic]

I hope that this is not heretical, I really do, but here's my theory about God.
According to modern science, a subatomic particle is capable of behaving in 4 different manners:
Let's call them A, B, C & D- whether the subatomic particle will behave as A, B, C or D is random. If you were capable of knowing the actions of each of those subatomic particles, you would know anything and everything about the universe. If you know which particles will behave as A, then you will know the consequences of behaving as A. If you know which particles will behave as B, then you know the outcome of particles behaving as B, etc. So, therefore, God designed this system for us so that we can have free will. God knew each individual outcome, but still allowed it to take its own coarse. God only to tweak a hand full (by which I mean trillions and trillions and trillions) of As in order to make them Bs. He had to tweak a few A to male them Cs, He had to tweak a few Cs to make them As, etc. We, as His creation, have no idea which particle were tweaked, but we still see the consequences of it.
Or in other words, the outcome of most subatomic particles is random, but a tiny minority of them were intentionally tweaked

[The Caleshan Valkyrie]

I hope that this is not heretical, I really do, but here's my theory about God.
According to modern science, a subatomic particle is capable of behaving in 4 different manners:
Let's call them A, B, C & D- whether the subatomic particle will behave as A, B, C or D is random. If you were capable of knowing the actions of each of those subatomic particles, you would know anything and everything about the universe. If you know which particles will behave as A, then you will know the consequences of behaving as A. If you know which particles will behave as B, then you know the outcome of particles behaving as B, etc. So, therefore, God designed this system for us so that we can have free will. God knew each individual outcome, but still allowed it to take its own coarse. God only to tweak a hand full (by which I mean trillions and trillions and trillions) of As in order to make them Bs. He had to tweak a few A to male them Cs, He had to tweak a few Cs to make them As, etc. We, as His creation, have no idea which particle were tweaked, but we still see the consequences of it.
Or in other words, the outcome of most subatomic particles is random, but a tiny minority of them were intentionally tweaked

Unprovable statement accompanied by ignorance (or whatever that unsourced ‘modern science says’ was) and a leap of logic that would set records at the Olympic Games.

You are REALLY reaching.

[Korhal IVV]

Like this.


The evidence is when people say they acted because God told them to.

People have also murdered because they said god tells them so.

Eliminating the Canaanites and the others -ites is akin to purging cancer cells from a human body. They had the WORST religious practices, like Child sacrifices. Allowing them to live (which was Israel’s big mistake) allowed them to intermarry with Israelites, therefore infecting the chosen people with their relatavistic ideologies (whatever you want to do, do it), and thus setting off the dark times that was the time of the Judges.

Don’t get me started with the Crusades, because Pope Urban only wanted to establish himself as leader of a United Christendom. In other words, not exactly a God-given reason.

[Byzconia]

No, science is a method. One based on falsifiability, evidence, observation, and research (i.e. the opposite of religion).

Actually observation, research and evidence is mostly what I do as a theologian. Not completely removed.

Theology is not science. You never apply these principles to God himself, which means any conclusions you draw are unfalsifiable (or, at best, irrelevant) due to being based on an unfalsifiable premise (i.e. that God exists).

[Byzconia]

I hope that this is not heretical, I really do, but here's my theory about God.
According to modern science, a subatomic particle is capable of behaving in 4 different manners:
Let's call them A, B, C & D- whether the subatomic particle will behave as A, B, C or D is random. If you were capable of knowing the actions of each of those subatomic particles, you would know anything and everything about the universe. If you know which particles will behave as A, then you will know the consequences of behaving as A. If you know which particles will behave as B, then you know the outcome of particles behaving as B, etc. So, therefore, God designed this system for us so that we can have free will. God knew each individual outcome, but still allowed it to take its own coarse. God only to tweak a hand full (by which I mean trillions and trillions and trillions) of As in order to make them Bs. He had to tweak a few A to male them Cs, He had to tweak a few Cs to make them As, etc. We, as His creation, have no idea which particle were tweaked, but we still see the consequences of it.
Or in other words, the outcome of most subatomic particles is random, but a tiny minority of them were intentionally tweaked

Except the Christian God is omniscient, meaning randomness physically cannot exist with him. There are no "minor tweaks," everything necessarily happens as he expects, or he is not omniscient (likewise, he must also necessarily approve of everything that happens as well--since nothing in the universe can happen without his allowance--or he is not omnipotent).

[Byzconia]

People have also murdered because they said god tells them so.

Eliminating the Canaanites and the others -ites is akin to purging cancer cells from a human body. They had the WORST religious practices, like Child sacrifices. Allowing them to live (which was Israel’s big mistake) allowed them to intermarry with Israelites, therefore infecting the chosen people with their relatavistic ideologies (whatever you want to do, do it), and thus setting off the dark times that was the time of the Judges.

Because the wholesale slaughter of entire villages is a "good" religious practice? Sorry, no, you don't get to commit genocide just because members of that culture practice things you don't like. Yeah, child sacrifice is bad, but the Israelites practiced slavery and regularly took captured women as concubines sex slaves. They hardly have any authority to tell other people what to do. And, again, none of this justifies genocide. Two wrongs don't make a right, bud.

Also, "...therefore infecting the chosen people with their relatavistic ideologies"? The fuck does that mean? You know ideas aren't genetic, right?

Don’t get me started with the Crusades, because Pope Urban only wanted to establish himself as leader of a United Christendom. In other words, not exactly a God-given reason.

Which is irrelevant. People during that time were extremely religious. Most Crusaders legitimately believed they were fighting a holy war and God was on their side. They were especially persuaded by the Pope's offer of free entry into Heaven for anyone who participated.

[Kowani]

People have also murdered because they said god tells them so.

Eliminating the Canaanites and the others -ites is akin to purging cancer cells from a human body. They had the WORST religious practices, like Child sacrifices.

Citation needed.

Allowing them to live (which was Israel’s big mistake) allowed them to intermarry with Israelites, therefore infecting the chosen people with their relatavistic ideologies (whatever you want to do, do it), and thus setting off the dark times that was the time of the Judges.

Oh look, we’re literally advocating Genocide now. How pleasant. Good Christian morality at work!

Don’t get me started with the Crusades, because Pope Urban only wanted to establish himself as leader of a United Christendom. In other words, not exactly a God-given reason.

Ignoring the fact that he thought it was his God-given destiny.

[Thuzbekistan]

So he's not answering prayers, he's just gambling that some person will listen to him and do his will?

Close enough. He's doing what is going to answer the prayer, and that's why the Bible says Christians must obey God.

Then by the same logic he is not answering people's prayers, since he also cannot force anyone to do anything. So once again that is not god answering prayers, that is humans answering prayers.

God is instructing humans to answer prayers. They wouldn't know what to do otherwise.

That's really insulting to groups that go out there and do this stuff. Particularly atheist groups.

[Korhal IVV]

Eliminating the Canaanites and the others -ites is akin to purging cancer cells from a human body. They had the WORST religious practices, like Child sacrifices.

Citation needed.

Allowing them to live (which was Israel’s big mistake) allowed them to intermarry with Israelites, therefore infecting the chosen people with their relatavistic ideologies (whatever you want to do, do it), and thus setting off the dark times that was the time of the Judges.

Oh look, we’re literally advocating Genocide now. How pleasant. Good Christian morality at work!

Don’t get me started with the Crusades, because Pope Urban only wanted to establish himself as leader of a United Christendom. In other words, not exactly a God-given reason.

Ignoring the fact that he thought it was his God-given destiny.

1. I will put that up later after my next class. Wait up.

2. Did I say that it applies in the Christian context? I didn't, right? That command was solely to Israel only. No more, no less. Case closed.

3. Doesn't mean that God would have wanted Christians under the New Covenant to crusade against Saracens. The New Testament Christians were explicitly pacifistic. The Crusades were a produce of the inclusion of formerly pagan traditions into the Catholic Church.

[Kowani]

Citation needed.
Oh look, we’re literally advocating Genocide now. How pleasant. Good Christian morality at work!

Ignoring the fact that he thought it was his God-given destiny.

1. I will put that up later after my next class. Wait up.

Yeah, sure.

2. Did I say that it applies in the Christian context? I didn't, right? That command was solely to Israel only. No more, no less. Case closed.

I love how you missed the point entirely.

3. Doesn't mean that God would have wanted Christians under the New Covenant to crusade against Saracens.

The same God who “flooded” the world because he didn’t like the moral state. “Free Will.”

The New Testament Christians were explicitly pacifistic.

Nah. The New Testament was explicitly Pacifistic. The Christians themselves? Not necessarily.

The Crusades were a produce of the inclusion of formerly pagan traditions into the Catholic Church.

I hope you stretched earlier.

[Dogmeat]

3. Doesn't mean that God would have wanted Christians under the New Covenant to crusade against Saracens. The New Testament Christians were explicitly pacifistic. The Crusades were a produce of the inclusion of formerly pagan traditions into the Catholic Church.

I'm totally willing to concede that pagan traditions have worked their way into various aspects of Christianity, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to think that they just laid dormant for the better part of a thousand years before manifesting a Crusade out of nowhere.

Christianity went through a lot of changes in the High Medieval period - from that weird Affective Spirituality movement with its Jesus-porn, to the formation of a persecuting society - but they're not pagan. You guys did this to yourselves.

[The Grims]

People have also murdered because they said god tells them so.

Eliminating the Canaanites and the others -ites is akin to purging cancer cells from a human body. They had the WORST religious practices, like Child sacrifices. Allowing them to live (which was Israel’s big mistake) allowed them to intermarry with Israelites, therefore infecting the chosen people with their relatavistic ideologies (whatever you want to do, do it), and thus setting off the dark times that was the time of the Judges.

Don’t get me started with the Crusades, because Pope Urban only wanted to establish himself as leader of a United Christendom. In other words, not exactly a God-given reason.

IIRC Jesus was accused of running a cult of cannibalism as well (most likely due to a misunderstanding of the ritual of the host).
Judging people on accusations alone might not be the best idea ever.

[The Blaatschapen]

Eliminating the Canaanites and the others -ites is akin to purging cancer cells from a human body. They had the WORST religious practices, like Child sacrifices. Allowing them to live (which was Israel’s big mistake) allowed them to intermarry with Israelites, therefore infecting the chosen people with their relatavistic ideologies (whatever you want to do, do it), and thus setting off the dark times that was the time of the Judges.

Don’t get me started with the Crusades, because Pope Urban only wanted to establish himself as leader of a United Christendom. In other words, not exactly a God-given reason.

IIRC Jesus was accused of running a cult of cannibalism as well (most likely due to a misunderstanding of the ritual of the host).
Judging people on accusations alone might not be the best idea ever.

https://xkcd.com/1152/

[Australian rePublic]

I hope that this is not heretical, I really do, but here's my theory about God.
According to modern science, a subatomic particle is capable of behaving in 4 different manners:
Let's call them A, B, C & D- whether the subatomic particle will behave as A, B, C or D is random. If you were capable of knowing the actions of each of those subatomic particles, you would know anything and everything about the universe. If you know which particles will behave as A, then you will know the consequences of behaving as A. If you know which particles will behave as B, then you know the outcome of particles behaving as B, etc. So, therefore, God designed this system for us so that we can have free will. God knew each individual outcome, but still allowed it to take its own coarse. God only to tweak a hand full (by which I mean trillions and trillions and trillions) of As in order to make them Bs. He had to tweak a few A to male them Cs, He had to tweak a few Cs to make them As, etc. We, as His creation, have no idea which particle were tweaked, but we still see the consequences of it.
Or in other words, the outcome of most subatomic particles is random, but a tiny minority of them were intentionally tweaked

Except the Christian God is omniscient, meaning randomness physically cannot exist with him. There are no "minor tweaks," everything necessarily happens as he expects, or he is not omniscient (likewise, he must also necessarily approve of everything that happens as well--since nothing in the universe can happen without his allowance--or he is not omnipotent).

No. Knowing something=/=comtrolling the outcome. It's like watching a movie for the 10th time. You know exactly what's gonna happen, but you don't control the outcome. You could say your omniscient over that movie, but don't control the outcome

[The Grims]

No, science is a method. One based on falsifiability, evidence, observation, and research (i.e. the opposite of religion).

Actually observation, research and evidence is mostly what I do as a theologian. Not completely removed.

But is your main goal to prove the god hypothesis wrong ? To devise test after test ?

[Alvecia]

Except the Christian God is omniscient, meaning randomness physically cannot exist with him. There are no "minor tweaks," everything necessarily happens as he expects, or he is not omniscient (likewise, he must also necessarily approve of everything that happens as well--since nothing in the universe can happen without his allowance--or he is not omnipotent).

No. Knowing something=/=comtrolling the outcome. It's like watching a movie for the 10th time. You know exactly what's gonna happen, but you don't control the outcome. You could say your omniscient over that movie, but don't control the outcome

To continue the analogy, the issue is that God isn’t the viewer of the movie. He’s the director, writer, and producer.

[Hanafuridake]

Eliminating the Canaanites and the others -ites is akin to purging cancer cells from a human body. They had the WORST religious practices, like Child sacrifices. Allowing them to live (which was Israel’s big mistake) allowed them to intermarry with Israelites, therefore infecting the chosen people with their relatavistic ideologies (whatever you want to do, do it), and thus setting off the dark times that was the time of the Judges.

“Child sacrifice is bad, and to prove why, we're going to massacre an entire civilization man, woman, and child.”

The reasoning here is incredible.

with their relatavistic ideologies (whatever you want to do, do it)

You think the Canaanites committed human sacrifice just to do it, and not because they labored under the belief in a cruel and bloodthirsty deity?

[The Archregimancy]

Eliminating the Canaanites and the others -ites is akin to purging cancer cells from a human body. They had the WORST religious practices, like Child sacrifices. Allowing them to live (which was Israel’s big mistake) allowed them to intermarry with Israelites, therefore infecting the chosen people with their relatavistic ideologies (whatever you want to do, do it), and thus setting off the dark times that was the time of the Judges.

Don’t get me started with the Crusades, because Pope Urban only wanted to establish himself as leader of a United Christendom. In other words, not exactly a God-given reason.

IIRC Jesus was accused of running a cult of cannibalism as well (most likely due to a misunderstanding of the ritual of the host).
Judging people on accusations alone might not be the best idea ever.

You're sort of in the right historical area, but you're off on the details. This sort of attack was common in early debates between pagans and Christians.

Take, for example, the Octavius, a 2nd-century Christian apologetic dialogue between a hypothetical pagan and a Christian. The pagan figure in the Octavius attacks the Christian figure for cannabilism, stating that he hears that Christians eat the flesh of their children in their secret rituals. The Christian figure deflects this by stating that the pagan is simply misunderstanding the Eucharist. The pagan then goes on to accuse Christians of being incestuous atheists, charges which are also deflected.

[The New California Republic]

*Looks for the word "liar" in that quote, or words to that effect*

I'm not seeing it.

*Looks again*

I'm still not seeing it.

I'll ask again: show me where I called you a liar.

Today's word of the day, "implied"

You accused me of calling you a liar multiple times, you never said that I implied you were a liar:

yet you called me a liar because I rejected that "Hitler is atheists=atheists are Hitler". You baselessly called me a liar for that, then point out me baselessly calling someone a liar. That makes you a hypocrite

So I will ask yet again: where did I call you a liar? Where?

[The Archregimancy]

Today's word of the day, "implied"

You accused me of calling you a liar multiple times, you never said that I implied you were a liar:

yet you called me a liar because I rejected that "Hitler is atheists=atheists are Hitler". You baselessly called me a liar for that, then point out me baselessly calling someone a liar. That makes you a hypocrite

So I will ask yet again: where did I call you a liar? Where?

Knock it off you two.

I can't moderate this thread now that I've posted seriously in it, but this exchange is unhelpful.

[The New California Republic]

You accused me of calling you a liar multiple times, you never said that I implied you were a liar:

So I will ask yet again: where did I call you a liar? Where?

Knock it off you two.

I can't moderate this thread now that I've posted seriously in it, but this exchange is unhelpful.

Sorry Arch. Shifted goalposts just irk me.

EDIT: plus I didn't see the thread in M that is related to this topic, and I wouldn't have posted had I seen it, sorry x 2.

[Korhal IVV]

Eliminating the Canaanites and the others -ites is akin to purging cancer cells from a human body. They had the WORST religious practices, like Child sacrifices. Allowing them to live (which was Israel’s big mistake) allowed them to intermarry with Israelites, therefore infecting the chosen people with their relatavistic ideologies (whatever you want to do, do it), and thus setting off the dark times that was the time of the Judges.

“Child sacrifice is bad, and to prove why, we're going to massacre an entire civilization man, woman, and child.”

The reasoning here is incredible.

with their relatavistic ideologies (whatever you want to do, do it)

You think the Canaanites committed human sacrifice just to do it, and not because they labored under the belief in a cruel and bloodthirsty deity?

1. That is not the point. The point is that it has been proven several times that the Israelites are incredibly susceptible to being captured by idolatry (For example, the golden calf and the scandal at Peor), and intermarrying with the other nations would make them lose their national identity as a chosen people, separate from all the idolatrous nations of the surrounding region. The Canaanites were also intent on fighting Israel anyway, with the exception of the Gibeonites. Others survived due to Israel’s negligence and ended up turning the nation to idolatry.

2. Nope.

That is what their morality is in general. They were the worst of the worst in terms of morality.

They do human sacrifices for Baal and Ashtoreth, yes.

3. Doesn't mean that God would have wanted Christians under the New Covenant to crusade against Saracens. The New Testament Christians were explicitly pacifistic. The Crusades were a produce of the inclusion of formerly pagan traditions into the Catholic Church.

I'm totally willing to concede that pagan traditions have worked their way into various aspects of Christianity, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to think that they just laid dormant for the better part of a thousand years before manifesting a Crusade out of nowhere.

Christianity went through a lot of changes in the High Medieval period - from that weird Affective Spirituality movement with its Jesus-porn, to the formation of a persecuting society - but they're not pagan. You guys did this to yourselves.

Which were the result of the inclusion of politics and irrationality as well as the stagnation in the Church.

It would seem that the Inquisitors, nay, the majority of the Church forgot that “Love thy neighbour” even existed. If the Apostles were alive they would have denounced all of these hideous things as heresy.

[Rojava Free State]

I'm an atheist, Because 18 of my friends and my ex girlfriend all died in various terrible ways and no amount of praying saved them. Good people suffer and according to religion, an all powerful being who could save them simply sits there and watches and does nothing, which is the ultimate cruelty