Islam, the future of social conservatism?

[Minzerland II]

If you think the only way to entrench conservative values is by adopting a new religion, you're not very creative.

Conservatism can be atheistic. Islam can be liberal - Mu'tazila and Sufism are but two examples - and the culture that currently dominates the Middle East is merely a very fundamentalist form of Islam.

True. Islam can be fascist, liberal, or communist.

Only if you twist and alter it to an unrecognisable level. Satan twisted scripture for his purposes, Liberals will be no different, whether it be trying to twist Christianity, Islam, Judaism, or any other religion.

[Minquasdal]

Why would a universalist doctrine like Islam appeal to Alt-righters and the nationalist new right that wants to actively exclude people? Maybe for a few people on the fringes it might, but otherwise a home-grown Islamist movement in America or the West in general would fail

Regards, Minquasdal

[Lyxtovia]

Why would a universalist doctrine like Islam appeal to Alt-righters and the nationalist new right that wants to actively exclude people? Maybe for a few people on the fringes it might, but otherwise a home-grown Islamist movement in America or the West in general would fail

Regards, Minquasdal

Islam is more socialist than fascist btw.

[Minquasdal]

Why would a universalist doctrine like Islam appeal to Alt-righters and the nationalist new right that wants to actively exclude people? Maybe for a few people on the fringes it might, but otherwise a home-grown Islamist movement in America or the West in general would fail

Regards, Minquasdal

Islam is more socialist than fascist btw.

How is Islam either? These are very distinct things, millions of people have died for them, I don't think it's terribly relevant to say something is more like something when it isn't that thing, even though what that thing actually is is extremely important.

Regards, Minquasdal.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Islam is more socialist than fascist btw.

How is Islam either? These are very distinct things, millions of people have died for them, I don't think it's terribly relevant to say something is more like something when it isn't that thing, even though what that thing actually is is extremely important.

Regards, Minquasdal.

Things are capable of having certain characteristics of a political ideology without being entirely that ideology, ya know.

[Solar Iran]

If you think the only way to entrench conservative values is by adopting a new religion, you're not very creative.

Conservatism can be atheistic. Islam can be liberal - Mu'tazila and Sufism are but two examples - and the culture that currently dominates the Middle East is merely a very fundamentalist form of Islam.

1: Al-Islam can't be liberal considering its gender roles, opposition to homosexuality, etc.
2: Mu'tazila is dead afaik, and I don't think it's liberal. It's just a different (and wrong iirc) interpretation.
3: I wouldn't consider Sufism to be liberal either. It's just a different way of getting closer to Allah SWT. Yes, some tariqat are against unification or masjid and state but that doesn't make them liberal.

That's like saying Christianity or Judaism can't be liberal. Religions can change over time, and be reinterpreted.

Figures like Mohammad Abduh and leaders like Amanullah Khan prove that you can be Muslim and have relatively liberal views.

[Solar Iran]

True. Islam can be fascist, liberal, or communist.

Only if you twist and alter it to an unrecognisable level. Satan twisted scripture for his purposes, Liberals will be no different, whether it be trying to twist Christianity, Islam, Judaism, or any other religion.

Friend, surely you don't believe Satan is a real being?

[Phoenicaea]

^ i ve claimed the opposite, nevertheless @Minquasdal has got a good a milenstone claim against.

how they could unite so, perhaps mix through immigration. reactionnaries are against dark moorish and asean muslims, not against others, as half-breeds.

what i mean here, is ideologies in faction politics are sort of tracks, rather than strict rules.

nevertheless in the domain of reason, @Minquasdal perhaps has got it.

[Ardoki]

Religion stands in the way of progress. Perhaps it should be abolished?

[Minzerland II]

Only if you twist and alter it to an unrecognisable level. Satan twisted scripture for his purposes, Liberals will be no different, whether it be trying to twist Christianity, Islam, Judaism, or any other religion.

Friend, surely you don't believe Satan is a real being?

Of course he is, the world is unexplainable without demons running up and about the world.

1: Al-Islam can't be liberal considering its gender roles, opposition to homosexuality, etc.
2: Mu'tazila is dead afaik, and I don't think it's liberal. It's just a different (and wrong iirc) interpretation.
3: I wouldn't consider Sufism to be liberal either. It's just a different way of getting closer to Allah SWT. Yes, some tariqat are against unification or masjid and state but that doesn't make them liberal.

That's like saying Christianity or Judaism can't be liberal. Religions can change over time, and be reinterpreted.

Figures like Mohammad Abduh and leaders like Amanullah Khan prove that you can be Muslim and have relatively liberal views.

They cannot unless you deliberately reinterpret and misinterpret passages and teachings. In which case, it isn’t the same religion anymore but a feel-good, liberal counterfeit. So yeah, unless you’re twisting and lying, then these religions cannot be said to be liberal. The adherents of these pale imitations are, imo, not even adherents of the religion they claim their own.

No, it doesn’t. It only proves that people can hold inconsistent, contradictory beliefs simultaneously. Sort of like cognitive dissonance, if I misappropriate the term.

[Mystic Warriors]

Christianity isnt going anywhere and neither is conservativism. I see plenty of young conservatives and they vote Republican. Even if Christians lose here Islam won't take its place, it will face the same issues and lose too.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Why would a universalist doctrine like Islam appeal to Alt-righters and the nationalist new right that wants to actively exclude people? Maybe for a few people on the fringes it might, but otherwise a home-grown Islamist movement in America or the West in general would fail

Regards, Minquasdal

There are a few Islamist parties in Europe right now. Yeah, they don't get a lot of votes, but still.

1: Al-Islam can't be liberal considering its gender roles, opposition to homosexuality, etc.
2: Mu'tazila is dead afaik, and I don't think it's liberal. It's just a different (and wrong iirc) interpretation.
3: I wouldn't consider Sufism to be liberal either. It's just a different way of getting closer to Allah SWT. Yes, some tariqat are against unification or masjid and state but that doesn't make them liberal.

That's like saying Christianity or Judaism can't be liberal.

They can't. Their teachings are not in the liberal framework.

Religions can change over time, and be reinterpreted.

Then the people are changing, not the religion.

Figures like Mohammad Abduh and leaders like Amanullah Khan prove that you can be Muslim and have relatively liberal views.

See above.

Religion stands in the way of progress.

This is a historical lie.

[United Capitalist Federations]

Well, to be honest, I doubt many on the modern right would embrace Islam for MANY reasons, as yes, it is socially conservative, but so is Christianity, and many in America (not just conservatives/right-wingers) have a huge disconnect with Islam as it is literally a foreign concept. I think the already very Christian right and by extension the US would be very hard-pressed to welcome Islam, especially more extreme right-wingers and atheists/agnostics/etc.

[ShakaZuli]

Why would a universalist doctrine like Islam appeal to Alt-righters and the nationalist new right that wants to actively exclude people? Maybe for a few people on the fringes it might, but otherwise a home-grown Islamist movement in America or the West in general would fail

Regards, Minquasdal

There are a few Islamist parties in Europe right now. Yeah, they don't get a lot of votes, but still.

That's like saying Christianity or Judaism can't be liberal.

They can't. Their teachings are not in the liberal framework.

Religions can change over time, and be reinterpreted.

Then the people are changing, not the religion.

Figures like Mohammad Abduh and leaders like Amanullah Khan prove that you can be Muslim and have relatively liberal views.

See above.

Religion stands in the way of progress.

This is a historical lie.

What is your expectation of Europe once you conquer it?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Well, to be honest, I doubt many on the modern right would embrace Islam for MANY reasons, as yes, it is socially conservative, but so is Christianity, and many in America (not just conservatives/right-wingers) have a huge disconnect with Islam as it is literally a foreign concept. I think the already very Christian right and by extension the US would be very hard-pressed to welcome Islam, especially more extreme right-wingers and atheists/agnostics/etc.

Al-Islam isn't a foreign religion to the west. Muslims have been in and out of the west for a long time.

There are a few Islamist parties in Europe right now. Yeah, they don't get a lot of votes, but still.

They can't. Their teachings are not in the liberal framework.

Then the people are changing, not the religion.

See above.

This is a historical lie.

What is your expectation of Europe once you conquer it?

Dude I live in America lol. I don't even have a job nor car yet, how do you expect me to conquer a continent?

[Kowani]

Friend, surely you don't believe Satan is a real being?

Of course he is, the world is unexplainable without demons running up and about the world.

So, these evil beings that are the source of evil are running around, and God, omnipotent and omnibenevolent, just lets it happen. I mean, he’s destroyed them before, so I assume he can do it again...

[Ardoki]

Religion stands in the way of progress.

This is a historical lie.

Well, it is certainly correct with regards to organised religion (especially the Abrahamic religions). They are very dogmatic, which is incompatible with progress.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

This is a historical lie.

Well, it is certainly correct with regards to organised religion (especially the Abrahamic religions). They are very dogmatic, which is incompatible with progress.

Look up the Islamic Golden Age.

[Jolthig]

Well, it is certainly correct with regards to organised religion (especially the Abrahamic religions). They are very dogmatic, which is incompatible with progress.

Look up the Islamic Golden Age.

It can even be argued that Muhammad (saw) himself was a progressive (not in the modern and more Western sense of course), but because of the fact, he saved Arabia from many internal problems.

[Byzconia]

Islam will definitely win in future but not because of the religion of Islam per se but because of demography. Things will end like when Turks demographically conquered Byzantium. Whites are poisoned by decades long liberalism and toxic individualism which combined with materialism creates a nihilist and atomised society

Not really how demographics works. The Turks didn't "demographically conquer" Byzantium, they just conquered it. They took over the Byzantine Empire militarily and colonized it with their own people (not that there weren't Turks living there already, but they were by no means a significant minority). What you're talking about here is literally just a flipped perspective on the "white genocide" idea. But, again, that's not how demographics works.

[Jolthig]

Religion stands in the way of progress. Perhaps it should be abolished?

No it does not.

And no because people have religious freedom. You're really not going to convince anyone to give up their faith if somehow religion is made illegal. It just won't happen.

You might be able to keep it out in public, but in private, people will still practice their faith. Not unless you want an Orwellian way of doing it; even then, you simply won't be able to change the minds of religious people.

[Byzconia]

Well, to be honest, I doubt many on the modern right would embrace Islam for MANY reasons, as yes, it is socially conservative, but so is Christianity, and many in America (not just conservatives/right-wingers) have a huge disconnect with Islam as it is literally a foreign concept. I think the already very Christian right and by extension the US would be very hard-pressed to welcome Islam, especially more extreme right-wingers and atheists/agnostics/etc.

Al-Islam isn't a foreign religion to the west. Muslims have been in and out of the west for a long time.

True, but irrelevant. Most Americans have absolutely no (direct) interaction with Muslims. For all intents and purposes, it is a foreign concept.

[Jolthig]

Al-Islam isn't a foreign religion to the west. Muslims have been in and out of the west for a long time.

True, but irrelevant. Most Americans have absolutely no (direct) interaction with Muslims. For all intents and purposes, it is a foreign concept.

True, it is actually estimated that nearly 60% of Americans have not met a Muslim.

[Byzconia]

True, but irrelevant. Most Americans have absolutely no (direct) interaction with Muslims. For all intents and purposes, it is a foreign concept.

True, it is actually estimated that nearly 60% of Americans have not met a Muslim.

And to further supplement my point, Americans (even conservative ones) have been becoming increasingly irreligious over time (like most Western states, though their transitions have largely finished at this point). While I don't doubt Islam could win some converts, the reality is that religion is just becoming less important in people's lives and their more likely to stay irreligious (or become atheist) than jump to another religion. Especially when you consider that the main reasons most young people give for leaving Christianity is their perception of it being "out of touch with modern values" and "anti-LGBT rights." Given Islam's reputation in regards to LGBTQ+ folks (at least among Westerners), it's unlikely to really gain mass support.

And this doesn't just apply to progressives/liberals, either. Young conservatives are also more welcoming of gay and trans people than previous generations (though bigotry still remains, of course).

[Andoros]

Isn't adopting a foreign religion to combat so-called progressivism the antithesis of conservatism? Islam in this context seems to be more a (foreign) moralizer reaction movement rather than legitimate belief. And while I agree some may find a better purpose for themselves as a Muslim, they will likely remain a tiny minority. Some might even later denounce Islam as a fad of their lives (although then they probably weren't good converts to begin with).