The General Car Thread - The Facelift.

[Petrolheadia]

New Supra is official.
It's bulgy.
(Image)

The fake F1 nose bugs me for some reason.

Most renderings looked better, and I'm pretty sure the GTA Online expy also will.

To be fair, the "looks better in GTA" crowd is not a bad group - Veyron, Eldorado, SLS AMG, Thunderbird...

[Cannot think of a name]

New Supra is official.
It's bulgy.
(Image)

The fake F1 nose bugs me for some reason.

Most renderings looked better, and I'm pretty sure the GTA Online expy also will.

It looks like the 86 went through a bad break up and over did it at the gym.

[Petrolheadia]

50s and 60s and 70s muscle cars were cheap when I was in high school in the 80s. First gen Mustangs were easily available. There were two kids in my high school with '64 convertible Impalas, one red and one blue. A kid in my senior year got an IROC Camaro and that seemed pretty pimp. The drummer in the jazz band drove a hot rodded Falcon. Trombone player had a Nova. I bought a junkyard Porsche 914 off the side of the road right out of high school in a completely bad idea.

Minipickup low riders were the big custom trend, the transfer kid from the 'ghetto' school had a really well done S10 with the bed completely filled with bass speakers. One of my exes step brother had a shaved Ranger. Hand me down luxury cars weren't uncommon either, buddy of mine had an older Audi. Another had a fox body Mustang with a four banger that you had to put a tic tac box in the carb to get it started. Right out of high school I use to play in a make shift starship simulator this dude had set up in a storage unit. Our crew was two 914s, two Mustangs (the Fox body and my brother's European Mustang so it wasn't called a Mustang), and another friend who drove a first gen BMW 320. Around 1990 you could get a 320 or 325 for $3000, or a Saab 900 Turbo, or a Maserati Biturbo for $5000. Most of these cars never actually increased in value. My ex almost got a Saab 900 Turbo, I liked the test drive. She bough a Buick Century instead. Blaaaaand. But then, so was she. Dude at the movie theater had a 2002. Ferrari 308s got to around $20,000. Lotus Espirit S1s were $15,000. Kind of still are, slowly going up now. As the 90s dragged on, cheap Fox body Mustangs ruled the day among people with no money. Body kitting VWs was a thing..

TBH, for that sort of money (inflation-adjusted) you can get an early E90 or 2nd gen S70 T5. What amounts to these days' $5k can get you a late V8 S-Type, and the $15k can put you in the driver seat of a DB7. Though the only Ferrari for that sort of money is a Mondial, maybe a 308 or 328.

You got me intrigued, any more info you have on historical used prices?

[Cannot think of a name]

50s and 60s and 70s muscle cars were cheap when I was in high school in the 80s. First gen Mustangs were easily available. There were two kids in my high school with '64 convertible Impalas, one red and one blue. A kid in my senior year got an IROC Camaro and that seemed pretty pimp. The drummer in the jazz band drove a hot rodded Falcon. Trombone player had a Nova. I bought a junkyard Porsche 914 off the side of the road right out of high school in a completely bad idea.

Minipickup low riders were the big custom trend, the transfer kid from the 'ghetto' school had a really well done S10 with the bed completely filled with bass speakers. One of my exes step brother had a shaved Ranger. Hand me down luxury cars weren't uncommon either, buddy of mine had an older Audi. Another had a fox body Mustang with a four banger that you had to put a tic tac box in the carb to get it started. Right out of high school I use to play in a make shift starship simulator this dude had set up in a storage unit. Our crew was two 914s, two Mustangs (the Fox body and my brother's European Mustang so it wasn't called a Mustang), and another friend who drove a first gen BMW 320. Around 1990 you could get a 320 or 325 for $3000, or a Saab 900 Turbo, or a Maserati Biturbo for $5000. Most of these cars never actually increased in value. My ex almost got a Saab 900 Turbo, I liked the test drive. She bough a Buick Century instead. Blaaaaand. But then, so was she. Dude at the movie theater had a 2002. Ferrari 308s got to around $20,000. Lotus Espirit S1s were $15,000. Kind of still are, slowly going up now. As the 90s dragged on, cheap Fox body Mustangs ruled the day among people with no money. Body kitting VWs was a thing..

TBH, for that sort of money (inflation-adjusted) you can get an early E90 or 2nd gen S70 T5. What amounts to these days' $5k can get you a late V8 S-Type, and the $15k can put you in the driver seat of a DB7. Though the only Ferrari for that sort of money is a Mondial, maybe a 308 or 328.

You got me intrigued, any more info you have on historical used prices?

There's some bonkers ones. You could pick up 250GGTEs for around $50k, I ran across a Maserati 3500GT for $8k but some dip had put a Corvette engine in it. A rear ended 400i was also $8k. Espadas were regularly $30k. I remember asking the drummer what he paid for his Falcon which was cherry and that was $3k. 70s 911s were around $10k, sometimes less. That hurts most of all. Oh, DB5s and 6s, topped out at $60k, saw a few for closer to 40. Tigers were under $20k. So were Amphicars...something I dug for a while. Not for what they go for now. Meraks were 20-40k. So were Indys and Ghiblis. Panteras weren't that much either. Jaguar 2+2 E type owned by my friend's dad was available at $8000 as a driver. XK120s were about the same-ish, dude down the street was serial restorer of them. Mostly televised auctions hadn't driven up the collector car market yet.

[Petrolheadia]

TBH, for that sort of money (inflation-adjusted) you can get an early E90 or 2nd gen S70 T5. What amounts to these days' $5k can get you a late V8 S-Type, and the $15k can put you in the driver seat of a DB7. Though the only Ferrari for that sort of money is a Mondial, maybe a 308 or 328.

You got me intrigued, any more info you have on historical used prices?

There's some bonkers ones. You could pick up 250GGTEs for around $50k, I ran across a Maserati 3500GT for $8k but some dip had put a Corvette engine in it. A rear ended 400i was also $8k. Espadas were regularly $30k. I remember asking the drummer what he paid for his Falcon which was cherry and that was $3k. 70s 911s were around $10k, sometimes less. That hurts most of all. Oh, DB5s and 6s, topped out at $60k, saw a few for closer to 40. Tigers were under $20k. So were Amphicars...something I dug for a while. Not for what they go for now. Meraks were 20-40k. So were Indys and Ghiblis. Panteras weren't that much either. Jaguar 2+2 E type owned by my friend's dad was available at $8000 as a driver. XK120s were about the same-ish, dude down the street was serial restorer of them. Mostly televised auctions hadn't driven up the collector car market yet.

TBH that's relatively close to 90s and some 80s supercar prices now.

[Petrolheadia]

Talking about used car prices, I can bring up some 1963 (and I think 1969, plus late-80s) Polish used car prices from a car history book I have, and some mid-00s ones from old issues of Motor.

[The Two Jerseys]

New Supra is official.
It's bulgy.
(Image)

The fake F1 nose bugs me for some reason.

RX-8 with an Enzo nose...

[NeoOasis]

No matter how I look at it... the new Supra just isn't that brilliant. I was expecting more than just a reskinned Z4, but there it is... identical engines, BMW interior, and a fairly boring/ugly exterior. The Mustang is a better buy in every way. Faster, cheaper, more aftermarket potential, better looking outside, and about as cheap looking inside. Doesn't hurt you can get a heated up GT500 which actually looks pretty badass.

For all the legacy and rep of the Supra, I feel Toyota didn't so much phone it in as copy someone else's homework, and called it "collaboration." I'm sorry Alfa Romeo for doubting you guys. At least they dropped a new engine into the Miata to call the 124 their own.

[Cannot think of a name]

No matter how I look at it... the new Supra just isn't that brilliant. I was expecting more than just a reskinned Z4, but there it is... identical engines, BMW interior, and a fairly boring/ugly exterior. The Mustang is a better buy in every way. Faster, cheaper, more aftermarket potential, better looking outside, and about as cheap looking inside. Doesn't hurt you can get a heated up GT500 which actually looks pretty badass.

For all the legacy and rep of the Supra, I feel Toyota didn't so much phone it in as copy someone else's homework, and called it "collaboration." I'm sorry Alfa Romeo for doubting you guys. At least they dropped a new engine into the Miata to call the 124 their own.

Fiat

[NeoOasis]

No matter how I look at it... the new Supra just isn't that brilliant. I was expecting more than just a reskinned Z4, but there it is... identical engines, BMW interior, and a fairly boring/ugly exterior. The Mustang is a better buy in every way. Faster, cheaper, more aftermarket potential, better looking outside, and about as cheap looking inside. Doesn't hurt you can get a heated up GT500 which actually looks pretty badass.

For all the legacy and rep of the Supra, I feel Toyota didn't so much phone it in as copy someone else's homework, and called it "collaboration." I'm sorry Alfa Romeo for doubting you guys. At least they dropped a new engine into the Miata to call the 124 their own.

Fiat

oops

[Cannot think of a name]

Fiat

oops

It was gonna be an Alfa.

[NeoOasis]

oops

It was gonna be an Alfa.

Look, my mistake aside, my opinion hasn't changed. FCA could be arsed to modify their Miata. Toyota couldn't be arsed to modify their
Z4. A corporate V6 would have been a better idea at this point. Their engine line up and engineering prowess is more than up to the challenge. Instead they went with whatever BMW shoved into the Z4. And the outcome was extremely blah. Even if they release a souped up trim, it will still fall short of a Mustang of equivalent price.

[Cannot think of a name]

It was gonna be an Alfa.

Look, my mistake aside, my opinion hasn't changed.

I wasn't digging, I was acknowledging that it was an easy mistake to make because it was grounded in how things were going to be. I was saying I understood, like accidentally hitting the wrong suggested spelling.

FCA could be arsed to modify their Miata. Toyota couldn't be arsed to modify their
Z4. A corporate V6 would have been a better idea at this point. Their engine line up and engineering prowess is more than up to the challenge. Instead they went with whatever BMW shoved into the Z4. And the outcome was extremely blah. Even if they release a souped up trim, it will still fall short of a Mustang of equivalent price.

I'm not as bothered by redressed rebadges. But this one definitely doesn't move me.

[Cannot think of a name]

That's a fancy fucking ranch.

[East Fredonia]

That's a fancy fucking ranch.

[Petrolheadia]

Am I the only guy who thinks that the retroized Mk5 Supra rendering looks better than the real deal?

[Elwher]

Am I the only guy who thinks that the retroized Mk5 Supra rendering looks better than the real deal?

It is an improvement, but in the end it is still a Supra.

[NeoOasis]

Am I the only guy who thinks that the retroized Mk5 Supra rendering looks better than the real deal?

blah. Still a Z4 at the end of the day with nothing that made the OG Supra meme worthy. Looking back at the Mark IV Supra... it wasn't that great looking to begin with. If I had to choose a 90s Japanese car, I'd go with the RX-7. Much much nicer looking overall.

[Petrolheadia]

Am I the only guy who thinks that the retroized Mk5 Supra rendering looks better than the real deal?

blah. Still a Z4 at the end of the day with nothing that made the OG Supra meme worthy. Looking back at the Mark IV Supra... it wasn't that great looking to begin with. If I had to choose a 90s Japanese car, I'd go with the RX-7. Much much nicer looking overall.

It looks like a previous effort of the guy who designed the 3rd gen Taurus.

[Auzkhia]

blah. Still a Z4 at the end of the day with nothing that made the OG Supra meme worthy. Looking back at the Mark IV Supra... it wasn't that great looking to begin with. If I had to choose a 90s Japanese car, I'd go with the RX-7. Much much nicer looking overall.

It looks like a previous effort of the guy who designed the 3rd gen Taurus.

I like the 3rd gen Jellybean Ford Taurus and Mercury Sable. It looks good, and especially a Taurus SHO.

[Petrolheadia]

It looks like a previous effort of the guy who designed the 3rd gen Taurus.

I like the 3rd gen Jellybean Ford Taurus and Mercury Sable. It looks good, and especially a Taurus SHO.

I don't.

In fact, I consider it one of the worst car designs ever - and the American customer seems to have a similar opinion, judging by the sharp sales drop after the redesign.

[Petrolheadia]

Some time ago, I promised to give a 1963 Polish used/new trade car prices from a reprint of a '63 guide I have.

So, here it is. For perspective, the average income was 1763 PLN at the day, which is about 1015 PLN or $269 in 2019 money.

Assume a bit above 6.5 PLN (1963):1 USD (2019) exchange rate, or just divide the 1963 figure by 10 and then multiply by 1.5.

Polish:
Warszawa - 120k PLN for a new car, 20-30k depreciation for every year to 1960, then 20-50k for pre-1960 models.

Syrena - 72k PLN for a new one, then 10-18k in 1st year depreciation and 5-10k in the next 3. Pre-1959 cars went for around 25-35k.

East German:
Wartburg - 30-60k PLN for a 900cc 311, 90-110k for a 312.

Trabant - 57-72k PLN. The magazine commented German cars did not depreciate too much. The Trabant's predecessor, the P-70, went for 27 to 42 grand.

IFA - 15-28k for an 8, 22-40k for a 9.

Soviet:
Moskvitch:
- 10-25k for a 400 or 401,
- 25-45k for a 404,
- 40-70k for a 3-spd 407,
- 115k for a new 4-spd 407, 12-22k in 1st year depreciation, 10-20k in next ones.

Italian:
Fiat:
- 600 - 30-95k,
- 1100 - 10-27k (pre-'53), 45-135k ('53--63).
- 1300/1500 - 85-175k.

French:
Renault:
- 4CV - 30-50k,
- Dauphine - 40-105k,
- 8 - 120-145k.

Citroen:
- Traction Avant - 15-42k,
- 2CV - 35-90k.

Simca:
- 8 - 12-25k,
- Aronde - 37-85k,
- Etoile/Elysee - 70-150k,
- Vedette - 25-40k ('55-'58), 65-100k ('58-'60).

Peugeot:
- 203 - 30-55k,
- 403 - 45-190k,
- 404 - 110-220k.

West German:
VW:
- Kübelwagen - 10-22k,
- Beetle - 20-55k (pre-'58), 50-80k ('58-'60), 80-155k ('60-'63).
- Type 3 - 100-190k.

DKW:
- Junior- 50-125k,
- F12 - 85-160k.

Opel:
- Kadett - 75-125k,
- Rekord - 35-75k ('56-'61), 85-175k ('62/'63),
- Kapitan - 20-48k (pre-'57), 30-80k ('57-'60), 80-330k ('61-'63),

BMW:
- 340 - 15-25k (the guide notes that there are nearly no spare parts, and the twin carbs are hard to fix),

Mercedes:
- 170V - 12-25k,
- 180 - 25-50k (pre-'58), 45-225k (post-'58),
- 180D - 25-60k (pre-'58), 45-245k (post-'58),
- 190 - 35-65k (pre-'58), 55-270k (post-'58),
- 190D - 35-75k (pre-'58), 60-300k (post-'58).

American:
Chevrolet:
- '49-'54 - 15-35k,
- '58-'60 - 40-80k,
- '61-'63 - 75-285k.

Pre-WWII cars - 2-22k, mostly depending on condition, not brand or model.

The editors also found a new Jaguar 420 for 560k PLN.
They also went out to check on a '51 Chevy Fleetline advertised as "perfect, new tires" - it was bondoed up, rusty inside, had non-stock headlamps and paintjob, the odometer's 30,000km likely was after at least two turnovers, and the tires were the worst brand-new crap around.

[Auzkhia]

I like the 3rd gen Jellybean Ford Taurus and Mercury Sable. It looks good, and especially a Taurus SHO.

I don't.

In fact, I consider it one of the worst car designs ever - and the American customer seems to have a similar opinion, judging by the sharp sales drop after the redesign.

*insert dismissive comment about the unwashed masses not having taste here*

The SHO is good though. Even the new one, though it's the only trim worth a damn.

[Elwher]

I don't.

In fact, I consider it one of the worst car designs ever - and the American customer seems to have a similar opinion, judging by the sharp sales drop after the redesign.

*insert dismissive comment about the unwashed masses not having taste here*

The SHO is good though. Even the new one, though it's the only trim worth a damn.

à chacun son goût

[Auzkhia]

*insert dismissive comment about the unwashed masses not having taste here*

The SHO is good though. Even the new one, though it's the only trim worth a damn.

à chacun son goût

De gustibus non est disputandum.