NATION

PASSWORD

Embassy of Lazarus + News

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
Not a roleplaying forum.

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
Ryccia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 911
Founded: Apr 25, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ryccia » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:45 am

Unibot III wrote:
Killer Kitty wrote:
Right then.

Then in that case it's a pretty safe assumption that absolutely no one with power in TSP actually told you that, Unibot. You just made up a lie to try and make it appear your words have backing and authority behind them when, in fact, you don't speak on behalf of TSP, you have no idea what you're talking about, and you're entirely powerless in this matter.

Thank you for confirming how irrelevant you are to this discussion, Unibot. You may leave now.


I just don't want to rain hellfire on my contacts for their communication with me.


I would very much prefer to meet these "contacts", so I may raise this issue at home. I believed talking to you about the inner workings of regions was anathema, but, here we are.

Unless you are lying? That is entirely plausible as well. You are not the most trustworthy of persons, especially given your troubled history.
Some person
TSPer and Lazarene
Member of the Council on Lazarene Security
"Ryccia you got it wrong"
- Xoriet, 2019

User avatar
Canton Empire
Senator
 
Posts: 4646
Founded: Mar 24, 2014
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Canton Empire » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:48 am

You would think that, after being banned from every major community in this game, Unibot would take the hint and find out that he’s not welcome here and no one wants to here him speak. Nevertheless, his desire to write long and idiotic speeches and boost his own ego wins out.
Former Vice Delegate of Lazarus, Guardian of Lazarus, Former Chief Justice of Lazarus, former Lazarene Ambassador to the East Pacific, founder, Republic of Channel Island
Offically Called a Silly boy by the real Donald Johnson

User avatar
Armaros
Diplomat
 
Posts: 628
Founded: Apr 06, 2018
Father Knows Best State

Postby Armaros » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:50 am

Ryccia wrote:
Unibot III wrote:
I just don't want to rain hellfire on my contacts for their communication with me.


I would very much prefer to meet these "contacts", so I may raise this issue at home. I believed talking to you about the inner workings of regions was anathema, but, here we are.

He won't give you those contacts because he's presumably lying - again. Or at least, I very much hope he's lying.
An average Jo.
LWU | TBH | Lazarus | TEP
My opinions are solely mine. I do not speak for regions I'm involved with unless stated otherwise.

User avatar
Pierconium
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1212
Founded: Antiquity
Father Knows Best State

Postby Pierconium » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:18 am

Unibot, I said 'I have never stated that the NPO is not dictatorial in nature' so what was the point of your post?
Tyrant (Ret.)

Tell me what you regard as your greatest strength, so I will know how best to undermine you; tell me of your greatest fear, so I will know which I must force you to face; tell me what you cherish most, so I will know what to take from you; and tell me what you crave, so that I might deny you…

NPO - EMPIRE - TRIUMVIRATE - NPD

User avatar
Imkiville
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 23
Founded: Feb 06, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Imkiville » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:15 am

Pierconium wrote:Unibot, I said 'I have never stated that the NPO is not dictatorial in nature' so what was the point of your post?

I'm starting to think the point of all his nonsense is just to try and remain feeling relevant and am now choosing to ignore the person who thinks they can speak with more authority, despite being banned, than a region's own Foreign Affair's Minister.

I would recommend everyone else do the same too and spare themselves the boredom from reading the overblown, self indulgent tripe~
Anarqueen, Graphic Artist, and General Pain in the Ass.

Also known as Imki, Imkihca, Imkitopia, etc.

User avatar
Escade
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1019
Founded: Apr 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Escade » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:36 am

Armaros wrote:
Ryccia wrote:
I would very much prefer to meet these "contacts", so I may raise this issue at home. I believed talking to you about the inner workings of regions was anathema, but, here we are.

He won't give you those contacts because he's presumably lying - again. Or at least, I very much hope he's lying.


There's a server called the Lampshade Bar and Grill where TSP admin, Roavin, Glenn, Kringalia, hang out with Unibot and ask him for guidance. So he's been given more importance by players who should know better. Of course laws about espionage, leaking , regional security and all that don't apply to those three and their lackeys.

Imkiville wrote:
Pierconium wrote:Unibot, I said 'I have never stated that the NPO is not dictatorial in nature' so what was the point of your post?

I'm starting to think the point of all his nonsense is just to try and remain feeling relevant and am now choosing to ignore the person who thinks they can speak with more authority, despite being banned, than a region's own Foreign Affair's Minister.

I would recommend everyone else do the same too and spare themselves the boredom from reading the overblown, self indulgent tripe~


^

User avatar
New Rogernomics
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9144
Founded: Aug 22, 2006
Left-wing Utopia

Postby New Rogernomics » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:45 am

Unibot III wrote:]1) The Lazarus system is in no way a constitutional monarchy. The UK, as you invoke as an example, allows the Queen to appoint people to Cabinet, controls passports, and gives royal assent - but this is a wholly symbolic process. If the Queen was routinely appointing people, kicking people out, and vetoing legislation, there'd be nothing constitutional about the UK monarchy.
I never said it was an in-name monarchy, I said it was a defacto constitutional monarchy. Meaning that we have a long-term head of state, close in powers to a monarch. Presidential isn't close enough, as Lazarus is not a military junta or an autocratic Presidency, where the President can't be removed by any real legislative or voting process, or where the legislature is threatened or coerced in acting a particular way. In Lazarus, all appointments must be approved by a citizen's assembly, if the assembly doesn't approve of those choices, then the Delegate must be forward more. Not surprising how oblivious you are to the Lazarene constitution.

1. The Delegate can't kick people out without:
A. The courts making a vote among themselves.
B. The assembly approving it through proscription legislation.
C. Someone committing a serious OOC offense
D. Someone lying on their citizenship application, and/or trying to infiltrate Lazarus. Though, Roavin wasn't forced out by this, nor Imaginery.

2. The Delegate can use their power to veto, but it is mostly ceremonial, meaning while it might be on the books, it is a power used only if absolutely necessary. Imki has never used this power, yet you keep arguing she has with no evidence to support that conclusion.
Unibot III wrote:2) A constitutional monarch cannot be removed by the government. The legislature is Her Majesty's Government.
Was expecting you to claim this, but one major flaw in that line of reasoning. In Lazarus it can be, in fact Lazarus is far more democratic than the UK system in this regard...yet you call Lazarus a dictatorship, for effectively having a long-term head of state, who can be removed legally by a vote of the Assembly.
Unibot III wrote:)3) If a vote to remove the Lazarene delegate is not successful there is significant opportunity for consequence and punishment. Which is exactly the point.
Yet there isn't anything in the Lazarene constitution to justify that alleged punishment, nor has Imki demonstrated any inclination towards that, in fact the reverse, as when such a vote was proposed, she didn't commit retribution to anyone. Not to mention that such retributive punishment would be illegal by Lazarene law as written.
Unibot III wrote:The NPO is not a meritocracy, it professes meritocracy - there is a difference. Nothing inherently requires merit in the appointment process. The NPO is led by a supreme Emperor, served by a Senate who serves at his pleasure. Characterizing the NPO as an "oligarchy," overlooks that nobody else is on an equal level as the Emperor. If the Emperor wants you gone, you're gone before you can take time for a piss. Senators are often removed and no explanation is needed or necessarily given. It's more Stalin, than Yeltsin.
That isn't what meritocracy means in a more autocratic system though. It means that you appoint based on perceived benefit or merit, in this case, the Emperor supposedly decides what this benefit or criteria is, and if they don't want someone, then they cease to serve. It isn't a fair system, but it still has a degree of meritocracy.
Unibot III wrote:The only thing I will say also is that the Emperor is not all powerful, per se, because of the external bureaucracy of the NPO beyond the NS NPO. In that way you might try to argue it's not a clear-cut dictatorship, but rather a governorship. But regardless, the Senate sits at the pleasure of the Emperor and the constitution can be unilaterally amended or dissolved by the Emperor.
Lazarus isn't anything close to that system, yet you effectively put Lazarus in the same category. Under a dictatorship, there isn't any real check on their power, and a military junta doesn't have to be absolute dictatorship, it can be oligarchic. I'd call the New Pacific Order a meritocratic oligarchy rather than any straight dictatorship, as power passes from a line of succession from one delegate to another. It rules through ideology, and an established hierarchy from both inside NS and outside of it, not just the barrel of a gun (though that is quite effective in keeping their system in place).
Last edited by New Rogernomics on Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Join the Lazarus Reform Club for healthy discussion on Lazarus.

Holds silly opinions on some things, and likes animals of all kinds, including the scary ones.
Pro: Individualism, Humanism, Human Rights, Internationalism & Free Markets, Democracy, Decentralization, Treaty of Sèvres, Free Hong Kong.
Against: Social Conservatism, Religious Extremism, Extreme Nationalism, Racism, Homo/Trans phobia, Authoritarianism.

User avatar
Jar Wattinree
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1045
Founded: Dec 14, 2016
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Jar Wattinree » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:16 pm

Unibot III wrote:The only thing I will say also is that the Emperor is not all powerful, per se, because of the external bureaucracy of the NPO beyond the NS NPO.

Within the branch of NationStates, the Emperor of the NationStates New Pacific Order is the supreme authority. The Emperors of CyberNations and Politics & War have no input in how the Emperor of NationStates runs their respective branch, and neither do they have input on how those entities run their political administrations. I'm sure you know as well as I do, but I'll say it anyway for your and everyone else's benefit -- sworn IC enemies of the NS NPO have no stigma attached to them should they apply for CN or P&W. Cormactopia Prime, or Ever-Wandering Souls, could be IOs in Politics & War, and still be hostile to NS NPO just the same. It is this In Character thing that, unfortunately, most of modern Gameplay has lost and will struggle to recover in the years to come.

The "external bureaucracy" "beyond the NS NPO" that you claim is controlling NS NPO is merely pointless semantics. It is the Out Of Character offsite administration located at npowned.net and has no input in politics as a matter of course (accepting, for the moment of the argument, that these admins are not the same persons as the the Emperors) unless there is serious Out Of Character crimes that pose a significant threat to the populations of the different Order branches. For example: sexual crimes, severe and ongoing harassment, DOXXers, people who cannot distinguish between In Character and Out Of Character and assume their petty selves can demand a full branch ban of a selective person they personally hate -- those are the things where the OOC administration will step in, where politics is superseded by admin.

But that is just that. East Durthang may be senior administrator, and Emperor of NS NPO at the same time, but he will not let that interfere with politics and administration. He is not the only authority in the New Pacific Order metaverse. Checks and balances, shockingly enough, do exist.

EDIT: I also apologize to Lazarus for hijacking their thread. I suppose that this is the same distinction you can make regarding how Imki's the Delegate and yet is bound by the Consitution.
Last edited by Jar Wattinree on Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  • Governor of Province Ardere
  • Praetorian of the New Pacific Order
  • Council Elder of St Abbaddon
  • Game Warden of Forest
Tribune of the New Pacific Order


User avatar
New Rogernomics
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9144
Founded: Aug 22, 2006
Left-wing Utopia

Postby New Rogernomics » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:58 pm

Jar Wattinree wrote:[...]EDIT: I also apologize to Lazarus for hijacking their thread. I suppose that this is the same distinction you can make regarding how Imki's the Delegate and yet is bound by the Consitution.
My issue with Unibot's analysis, is more the laziness of arguing that a system is a dictatorship because some allegedly suffer from a regime. Even though that is nothing to do with whether a system of government is a particular way, beyond how authoritarian it is. Lazarus, or the New Pacific Order for that matter, could hypothetically be states that eject and ban nations on a whim or purely for fun, and still be democratic, but be a tyranny of the majority kind. I would have accepted Unibot's argument more if he had argued Lazarus was a tyranny of the majority, or a defacto oligarchy or monarchy with a constitutional framework, but that isn't what Unibot argued. Instead he argued that Lazarus was a 'dictatorship', which is a term that doesn't fit how Lazarus is set up at all.
Last edited by New Rogernomics on Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Join the Lazarus Reform Club for healthy discussion on Lazarus.

Holds silly opinions on some things, and likes animals of all kinds, including the scary ones.
Pro: Individualism, Humanism, Human Rights, Internationalism & Free Markets, Democracy, Decentralization, Treaty of Sèvres, Free Hong Kong.
Against: Social Conservatism, Religious Extremism, Extreme Nationalism, Racism, Homo/Trans phobia, Authoritarianism.

User avatar
Drop Your Pants
Senator
 
Posts: 3581
Founded: Apr 17, 2005
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Drop Your Pants » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:24 pm

Unibot: Bringing waring regions together in the spirit of hating him.
Happily oblivious to NS Drama

User avatar
Jar Wattinree
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1045
Founded: Dec 14, 2016
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Jar Wattinree » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:50 pm

New Rogernomics wrote:
Jar Wattinree wrote:[...]EDIT: I also apologize to Lazarus for hijacking their thread. I suppose that this is the same distinction you can make regarding how Imki's the Delegate and yet is bound by the Consitution.
My issue with Unibot's analysis, is more the laziness of arguing that a system is a dictatorship because some allegedly suffer from a regime. Even though that is nothing to do with whether a system of government is a particular way, beyond how authoritarian it is. Lazarus, or the New Pacific Order for that matter, could hypothetically be states that eject and ban nations on a whim or purely for fun, and still be democratic, but be a tyranny of the majority kind. I would have accepted Unibot's argument more if he had argued Lazarus was a tyranny of the majority, or a defacto oligarchy or monarchy with a constitutional framework, but that isn't what Unibot argued. Instead he argued that Lazarus was a 'dictatorship', which is a term that doesn't fit how Lazarus is set up at all.

Ahhh, I see what you mean. Carry on then.
  • Governor of Province Ardere
  • Praetorian of the New Pacific Order
  • Council Elder of St Abbaddon
  • Game Warden of Forest
Tribune of the New Pacific Order


User avatar
Wycliffe
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 57
Founded: Aug 10, 2016
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Wycliffe » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:27 pm

I don't understand what Unibot is trying to get at painting Lazarus as a dictatorship run by someone who is a pariah from the rest of the community. We are a region still recovering from a disastrous year of troubles, trying to find our footing again and develop a new identity. Old enemies and grudges have no place in the new Lazarus, and it's a total non-starter to begin describing us with how the only thing keeping us in line is fear of getting on Imki's nerves. I think many in the region, including me, wish for a long-term transition to a democratic system, under the conditions where a successful democracy is viable. Others don't, that's their right. What matters is that our community is cognizant of the fact that a few months of constitutional bickering followed by an election isn't going to solve anything- just create more infighting. The rule of Imki is not an imposition upon us of her personal whims, in fact people talk regularly about future planning, governmental functions and themes that go against that very concept. She cares about the future of this region and keeping its community vibrant, happy and open, more than personal power. If this weren't so I believe she would have torched the region all over again and rebuilt it in an image completely contradictory to the direction in which we are heading.

We in this region are doing our best and trying to get Lazarus back on track, and we're taking our time deciding what we want this region to be. Unlike the circumstances that resulted in the creation of the PRL, the HRL, or any other predecessor governments, we have everyone around the table. We have people from all walks of gameplay, trusted guardians from both sides of the last war, and a vested interest in avoiding future strife that makes people unhappy. We are united, all of us, in creating something we can all see value in, a vibrant community that transcends the R/D bickering that goes on here so much. The manner in which we do it, and the speed of that process, as well as the end result, is not any of Unibot's business. He is an pariah in this game who makes wrongheaded assumptions about a region he does not participate in, while simultaneously managing to aggravate just about everyone he involves in his arguments. We're going to do our thing, with or without his irrelevant approval, and he can rant all he wants about our supposed oppression- while we go on to create something better, more active and more united than what came before.
Resident of Lazarus
Retired.
Veritas Vincit
Chanson du jour: Look Inside America
The Most Holy Kingdom of
Wycliffe

User avatar
Aumeltopia
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 53
Founded: Apr 02, 2017
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Aumeltopia » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:36 pm

There has been some confusion and rumour-spreading over the South Pacific’s current position on Lazarus and my response to Unibot. Our official position on the Corporation/Mandate 12 government is that while we are withholding permanent judgement, we accept it as the de facto government of the region.
Delegate of the South Pacific
aka Somyrion

Auphelia wrote:Raccoons are bandits! First they steal your food . . . and then your heart/identity!

User avatar
Unibot III
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5800
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:52 pm

Pierconium wrote:Unibot, I said 'I have never stated that the NPO is not dictatorial in nature' so what was the point of your post?


Actually my apologies, Ivan, I missed the double negative. It was embarrassingly late at night. :blush:

Drop Your Pants wrote:Unibot: Bringing waring regions together in the spirit of hating him.


Fucking right, man.

I never said it was an in-name monarchy, I said it was a defacto constitutional monarchy. Meaning that we have a long-term head of state, close in powers to a monarch. Presidential isn't close enough, as Lazarus is not a military junta or an autocratic Presidency, where the President can't be removed by any real legislative or voting process, or where the legislature is threatened or coerced in acting a particular way. In Lazarus, all appointments must be approved by a citizen's assembly, if the assembly doesn't approve of those choices, then the Delegate must be forward more. Not surprising how oblivious you are to the Lazarene constitution.


My point is that the Lazarus system has nothing in common with constitutional monarchy, de facto or de jure - it's a misnomer to use the term. A constitutional monarch is ceremonial, but the influence is not ceremonial. The system that your constitution describes is an autocracy with republican checks and balances of dubious practical nature - that's the main thrust of my criticism here.

I understand the constitution requires approval from appointments but my experience is that a 50+1% for appointments is a rubber stamp unless both the delegate and the appointment are unpopular.

1. The Delegate can't kick people out without:
A. The courts making a vote among themselves.
B. The assembly approving it through proscription legislation.
C. Someone committing a serious OOC offense
D. Someone lying on their citizenship application, and/or trying to infiltrate Lazarus. Though, Roavin wasn't forced out by this, nor Imaginery.


I was referring to Section 5-6 of the constitution, especially Section 6. To me that's legal infrastructure that supports open-ended "Onderesque" political bans. The Assembly does not need to approve a ban, only the Council on Lazarene Security needs to - by a common majority. I consider the thresholds, a laughably weak check and balance. A 3/4 overturn is almost impossible to organize and getting half of a posse of people you appointed to agree with you should not be a difficult challenge.

(5) The Delegate may admit residents of Lazarus to citizenship, or may delegate this responsibility to the government official(s) of their choosing. Further procedure for citizenship admission, including procedure for appealing rejection of a citizenship application by the Delegate, as well as criteria for maintenance of citizenship and enforcement of such criteria, may be established by law.

(6) The Delegate may, subject to confirmation by 50%+1 vote of the Council on Lazarene Security, impose revocation of citizenship, ejection and/or ban from Lazarus, or other measures to preserve the security and stability of Lazarus, for whatever duration of time is determined appropriate. The Assembly may overturn such decisions by three-quarters vote.


2. The Delegate can use their power to veto, but it is mostly ceremonial, meaning while it might be on the books, it is a power used only if absolutely necessary. Imki has never used this power, yet you keep arguing she has with no evidence to support that conclusion.


It can be difficult to distinguish sometimes between 'ceremonial powers' and impassive authority that possesses a chilling effect, because the latter foments an absence of resistance. The test of this resolve is free criticism and an open leadership.

Was expecting you to claim this, but one major flaw in that line of reasoning. In Lazarus it can be, in fact Lazarus is far more democratic than the UK system in this regard...yet you call Lazarus a dictatorship, for effectively having a long-term head of state, who can be removed legally by a vote of the Assembly.


The point of that comment was not to make a comment on whether Lazarus is more democratic or less democratic than the UK, the point of the comment was to lay out clearly why Lazarus is not a constitutional monarchy for the purposes of that post. I do not believe Lazarus is a constitutional monarchy and I do not believe that the "forced abdication" system makes Lazarus more democratic than the UK. The reason for the latter is because of the despotic nature of Lazarus' sovereign: major policy decisions and appointments go through one central figure that is fundamentally unelected. The Queen cannot be forced into abdication, but her political role in the UK is negligible and ceremonial, true power lies with the Prime Minister, who is subject to confidence votes, leadership reviews, and general elections. Arguing that the UK is "less democratic" than Lazarus is a ludicrous statement: the UK goes to the polls to choose their government.

Yet there isn't anything in the Lazarene constitution to justify that alleged punishment, nor has Imki demonstrated any inclination towards that, in fact the reverse, as when such a vote was proposed, she didn't commit retribution to anyone. Not to mention that such retributive punishment would be illegal by Lazarene law as written.


Punitive action for dissent and resistance is typically not spelled out in a law, it's more influential if it's unsaid. Retributive punishment is not illegal by Lazarene Law if done properly - the delegate, for instance, can withhold appointments they may have otherwise given, and reinterpret people's cases as being more of a "security risk" than previously considered.

That isn't what meritocracy means in a more autocratic system though. It means that you appoint based on perceived benefit or merit, in this case, the Emperor supposedly decides what this benefit or criteria is, and if they don't want someone, then they cease to serve. It isn't a fair system, but it still has a degree of meritocracy.


A dictator would like it if it reality weaved, wobbled, and warped around their will, but that is not how the world works and neither of us are under an obligation to indulge these untruths here. Meritocracy is a system that promotes merit on the basis of merit with a process that aims to produce this. Nothing inherently about the NPO's structure requires a merit-based appointment, nor does anything actively promote it in the decision-making. It's effectively used as a buzzword with no practical backing to bolster NPO's autocracy as a claim to "better governance," than democracies. It's like when governments claim they've made an "evidence-based decision," but their decision-making process precluded evidence and allowed for no way to track or verify the outcome of the decision - it's just a nice word that people like.

Lazarus isn't anything close to that system, yet you effectively put Lazarus in the same category. Under a dictatorship, there isn't any real check on their power, and a military junta doesn't have to be absolute dictatorship, it can be oligarchic. I'd call the New Pacific Order a meritocratic oligarchy rather than any straight dictatorship, as power passes from a line of succession from one delegate to another. It rules through ideology, and an established hierarchy from both inside NS and outside of it, not just the barrel of a gun (though that is quite effective in keeping their system in place).


I don't consider Lazarus on the same level as the NPO. Not remotely so.

The NPO possesses virtually no real check or balance on the Emperor; the Emperor can be mad as a hatter and NPOers have had to basically do their best to control the carnage behind the scenes. I think if you're a senator you can get deluded into thinking you're a part of an oligarchy because it can be a really fraternal place with a lot of camaraderie, like a smokey politburo board room. But all it takes is for a friend of a decade to be given the boot one morning for you to be reminded that it's not an oligarchy, it's a dictatorship.

I've voiced my views strongly here in part because I don't believe Lazarus' governing structure is as liberal as promoted (weak checks and balances, succession is not elective, a severe chilling effect is unavoidable), the decision to violate the Peacekeeper's Agreement was wrong, and most importantly, I think Lazarus has the most potential for liberalisation in the future. Reform is not a realistic goal for criticizing the NPO, you can dispel myths, misunderstandings and misinformation, but the NPO is not going to reform itself. I have more hope for Lazarus.

Armaros wrote:
Ryccia wrote:
I would very much prefer to meet these "contacts", so I may raise this issue at home. I believed talking to you about the inner workings of regions was anathema, but, here we are.

He won't give you those contacts because he's presumably lying - again. Or at least, I very much hope he's lying.


I don't lie.

There has been some confusion and rumour-spreading over the South Pacific’s current position on Lazarus and my response to Unibot. Our official position on the Corporation/Mandate 12 government is that while we are withholding permanent judgement, we accept it as the de facto government of the region.


This is a sensible call, the reality is the corpocracy of Lazarus is the government and will be for some time. It's the manner in which this government originated that betrayed the South Pacific's trust and could have a permanent negative effect on future international negotiations.

My issue with Unibot's analysis, is more the laziness of arguing that a system is a dictatorship because some allegedly suffer from a regime. Even though that is nothing to do with whether a system of government is a particular way, beyond how authoritarian it is. Lazarus, or the New Pacific Order for that matter, could hypothetically be states that eject and ban nations on a whim or purely for fun, and still be democratic, but be a tyranny of the majority kind. I would have accepted Unibot's argument more if he had argued Lazarus was a tyranny of the majority, or a defacto oligarchy or monarchy with a constitutional framework, but that isn't what Unibot argued. Instead he argued that Lazarus was a 'dictatorship', which is a term that doesn't fit how Lazarus is set up at all.


I don't think there's a clear cut word for what Lazarus is. It's not an out-of-the-box dictatorship. It's a governing structure where the power lies mostly with one figure, I'm deeply skeptical of the checks and balances that are supposed to be in play. 'Passive tyranny' is what I would stumble upon if forced to name an accurate term, I reject the "monarchy," label and the "oligarchy," or the "tyranny of the majority" terms - those don't describe accurately the source and nature of authority in Lazarus as it stands today.

We in this region are doing our best and trying to get Lazarus back on track, and we're taking our time deciding what we want this region to be. Unlike the circumstances that resulted in the creation of the PRL, the HRL, or any other predecessor governments, we have everyone around the table. We have people from all walks of gameplay, trusted guardians from both sides of the last war, and a vested interest in avoiding future strife that makes people unhappy. We are united, all of us, in creating something we can all see value in, a vibrant community that transcends the R/D bickering that goes on here so much. The manner in which we do it, and the speed of that process, as well as the end result, is not any of Unibot's business. He is an pariah in this game who makes wrongheaded assumptions about a region he does not participate in, while simultaneously managing to aggravate just about everyone he involves in his arguments. We're going to do our thing, with or without his irrelevant approval, and he can rant all he wants about our supposed oppression- while we go on to create something better, more active and more united than what came before.


I did this long ago before I was a "pariah," and I typically got shit on then too. I don't really notice much of a difference. Sometimes people would acknowledge the truth of these criticisms years later. I don't particularly care. I enjoy a debate and I enjoy the role of intergovernmental critic.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of The Rejected Realms | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // An Analysis of NationStates Generations // The Gameplay Alignment Test // NS Weather // How do I join the UDL? // The Transpacific Trade
Paradise Found // The Unibotian Life Expectancy Index // Proudly Authored 9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Commended by SC#78 // The Polysemes of Nativeness;

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
✯ Duty is Eternal, Justice is Imminent: UDL

User avatar
North Prarie
Diplomat
 
Posts: 812
Founded: Nov 04, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby North Prarie » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:04 pm

Thassa lotta textwalls
North Prarie. Prarie. Proud South Pacifican. Pete Buttigieg Person. Overall weirdo.
Hosting Experience
Prarie Classic Baseball Tournament
Copa South Pacifica 1
WPIC 5
Sporting Acheivments
Round of 16 at Handball World Cup 20
Women's Hockey Round of 16 at Prescott Winter Olympics 13
Prarie Classic Baseball Tournament Champions

Prariean Airlines-Pompeii Industries Luxury Cars-Phoenix Luxury Hotels (V2 Coming Soon)-Stonebridge Simbacat International Airport-Embassy Program
SBT BottomLine-President Valieant welcomes first child Pax, Social Democrats gain big wins in Parliament elections, Lions win NPBL, Cavaliers win Prarie Hockey Cup, NPFA announces slow move away from world affairs[/color]

User avatar
Galiantus III
Diplomat
 
Posts: 610
Founded: Jan 23, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Galiantus III » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:28 am

Unibot III wrote:snip


As a citizen of Lazarus, I don't care what you think we should change about our government, Unibot. Your personal designs for the region are a denial of our sovereignty, and if implemented would only serve to threaten the security of our community. We have been the repeated target of conquest by the NPO, and democracy as a means for yet another attempt is the last thing we need.

This is not real life, nor is this comparable to real life, and you are in grave error trying to apply principals of real life to our online community. You aren't a moralistic defender; you're a borderline entryist with misguided motives. Leave my region alone.
Last objected by The World Assembly on Sun, January 21, 2018, at 9:05 pm, objected 16,999 times in total.



The NPO is basically North Korea, if North Korea colonized Mars and the Kims were inbred with Martians.

Frisbeeteria wrote:
For some reason I have a mental image of a dolphin, trying to organize a new pod of his fellow dolphins to change the course of a nuclear sub. It's entertaining, I'll give ya that.
Ballotonia wrote:
Testing is for sissies. The actual test is to see how many people complain when any change is made ;)

User avatar
Your Imaginary Friend
Attaché
 
Posts: 88
Founded: Jan 17, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Your Imaginary Friend » Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:05 am

Post removed.
Last edited by Your Imaginary Friend on Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Managing Director, Lazarus
Also known as Sylven in another life...

User avatar
Greater vakolicci haven
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18617
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:25 am

Your Imaginary Friend wrote:Sorry for not addressing this sooner.

Unibot, you are not welcome in Lazarus's gameplay embassy due to off-site OOC reasons. You can make commentary on Lazarus in other appropriate threads (perhaps of your own making if no others exist/suit you) but please do not post in this thread again.

If you would like to know why you're blacklisted here or discuss this blacklisting's removal, please contact me on Discord (my tag is Sylven Razedusk#1404).

I also ask that Lazarenes and visitors to this embassy do not engage Unibot here. This can be done elsewhere, if you so desire.

If you would like to know why I'm asking you to do this, please contact me on Discord, or via PM on the Lazarus forums (my display name is Imaginary there).

Thank you.

Their is no thread ownership in gameplay.
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
NSG virtual happy hour this Saturday: join us on zoom, what could possibly go wrong?
“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

User avatar
Your Imaginary Friend
Attaché
 
Posts: 88
Founded: Jan 17, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Your Imaginary Friend » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:01 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Their is no thread ownership in gameplay.

Yeep, which is why this is a request.
Managing Director, Lazarus
Also known as Sylven in another life...

User avatar
Drop Your Pants
Senator
 
Posts: 3581
Founded: Apr 17, 2005
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Drop Your Pants » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:04 am

Your Imaginary Friend wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Their is no thread ownership in gameplay.

Yeep, which is why this is a request.

Good luck with that. Uni is too much fun to argue with.

If people are bothered by his posts I recommend using the Foe list function on the forums, very useful.
Happily oblivious to NS Drama

User avatar
The Notorious Mad Jack
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 472
Founded: Nov 05, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Notorious Mad Jack » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:29 am

Drop Your Pants wrote:
Your Imaginary Friend wrote:Yeep, which is why this is a request.

Good luck with that. Uni is too much fun to argue with.

If people are bothered by his posts I recommend using the Foe list function on the forums, very useful.

Indeed - and unlike Block, he doesn't post with alt accounts to get around that.
Totally not MadJack, though I hear he's incredibly smart and handsome.

User avatar
New Rogernomics
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9144
Founded: Aug 22, 2006
Left-wing Utopia

Postby New Rogernomics » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:45 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Your Imaginary Friend wrote:Sorry for not addressing this sooner.

Unibot, you are not welcome in Lazarus's gameplay embassy due to off-site OOC reasons. You can make commentary on Lazarus in other appropriate threads (perhaps of your own making if no others exist/suit you) but please do not post in this thread again.

If you would like to know why you're blacklisted here or discuss this blacklisting's removal, please contact me on Discord (my tag is Sylven Razedusk#1404).

I also ask that Lazarenes and visitors to this embassy do not engage Unibot here. This can be done elsewhere, if you so desire.

If you would like to know why I'm asking you to do this, please contact me on Discord, or via PM on the Lazarus forums (my display name is Imaginary there).

Thank you.

Their is no thread ownership in gameplay.

*They're/There/Their

Though I doubt Unibot will stay out. We have to wait for a region to do something else he doesn't like, which should be at least a few months.
Last edited by New Rogernomics on Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Join the Lazarus Reform Club for healthy discussion on Lazarus.

Holds silly opinions on some things, and likes animals of all kinds, including the scary ones.
Pro: Individualism, Humanism, Human Rights, Internationalism & Free Markets, Democracy, Decentralization, Treaty of Sèvres, Free Hong Kong.
Against: Social Conservatism, Religious Extremism, Extreme Nationalism, Racism, Homo/Trans phobia, Authoritarianism.

User avatar
New Rogernomics
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9144
Founded: Aug 22, 2006
Left-wing Utopia

The Lazarene Gazette January 2019

Postby New Rogernomics » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:15 pm

Image
The Official Newspaper of Lazarus
Issue 4 • January 2019 • 2 Pages



Image
LAZARUS PROSCRIBES NEW PACIFIC ORDER
By New Rogernomics
Image
Image

Lazarus alongside the Proclamation of War upon the New Pacific Order, have voted on a Proscription against that government. The proscription in the strictest terms will ban New Pacific Order citizens and residents holding citizenship or participating in any shape or form in the government of Lazarus.

Such a proscription will strip Lazarene citizenship from those who concurrently hold citizenship or participate in the New Pacific Order. This has been seen as a necessary second step following on from the declaration of war against the New Pacific Order. Proscription was being discussed prior to the declaration of war, as a possible measure whether Lazarus decided upon a war measure or not, generally as a means to prohibit New Pacific Order influence upon Lazarus in the future. 

With the proscription passing by a strong margin of 95% for the motion, Lazarus as a region seems to wish to provide reassurance of their commitment to resist the New Pacific order both at home and abroad, and that it won't go back to business as usual. It also forms a basis for regional unity against a commonly perceived threat, supplementing the declaration of war it had passed on the New Pacific Order.

You can read the full text of the Hostile Entities and Persons act here: Hostile Entities and Persons Act, which details the full scope of what a proscription would mean. 
 
Image
NEW REGIONAL APPOINTMENTS
By New Rogernomics
Image
Image

The Delegate of Lazarus, Imkiville, in an address to Lazarus said "Greetings again Lazarus! We’ve had a busy old month but we can’t let the excitement derail us from our main goal of rebuilding our region so I’ve got a lot of appointments for your consideration to help towards that end!", highlighting the hard work of her administration, and her intent to appoint more positions within Lazarus. 

During her speech, she expressed her desire to appoint the first Council of Lazarene Security, inclusive of in her own words of nations who, "a well rounded group of long time Lazarene players that will help cover all aspects of Lazarene security to keep us safe", the players in question were New Rogernomics, Harmoneia, Killer Kitty and Aflana. Under Lazarene law, the Council of Lazarene Security works under the leadership of the Vice-Delegate, in this case Treadwellia. 

The confirmation vote of this would later pass, including the confirmation vote of Killer Kitty, which some made reservations over appointing to a regional security role. The confirmation of Killer Kitty would pass on a margin of 67% approval, whereas Harmoneia and New Rogernomics were the highest approved, with 88% and 94% respectively. 

While on issue on the courts, Imkiville laid out her intent to put forward Roavin, who had resigned for withholding information, for another vote, stating "I wish to again choose to present Lazarene Roavin to the region for confirmation to the position of Court Justice. I don’t believe the disclosure of his identity as the nation Curious Observations changes his suitability to serve on our regional court. I stand by my original appointment of him and put it to you, the region, to see if you agree", though the confirmation vote would later fail by a margin of 67% against, and 33% for. At least at present, we can infer that the uncertainty and confusion around Roavin's admission was sufficient to block the appointment. 

In order to proceed with the Lazarene Regional Guard Charter, Imkiville laid forth her intent to appoint a Minister of the Lazarene Regional Guards, making the following statement, "Finally, with the war with the NPO and our recently passed Lazarene Regional Guard Charter, I believe it is imperative we begin to mobilise our forces as soon as possible so I would like to appoint Kingdom of Napels, aka JoWhatup, as our first Minister of the Lazarene Regional Guards. An experienced military gameplayer and a keen, enthusiastic Lazarene, I believe he'll be a great commander for our new military!". JoWhatsup would later be confirmed by a strong margin of 94% for and 8% against. 

In her speech, she ended by expressing that she hoped, "everyone will vote to confirm these appointments to help us stand strong and together as a region!", and she thanked the region of Lazarus for their continued hard work. 
 
Image
LAZARUS FORMS REGIONAL GUARD MILITARY FORCE
By New Rogernomics
Image
Image

In order to pursue the war against the New Pacific Order, as well as carry out military operations for regional defense and security, Lazarus has established a military force, known as the Lazarene Regional Guard. This force shall be tasked initially with duties inclusive of offensive and defensive operations against the New Pacific Order, and Fascist regions, as well as defense of treaty allies and support of legal delegacy transitions.

The full text of the 'Charter of the Lazarene Regional Guard' can be read here: Charter of the Lazarene Regional Guard
 
Image
REGIONAL GUARD EMPOWERED TO ACT AGAINST NPO
By New Rogernomics
Image
Image

While Lazarus establishing a regional military, in the form of the Lazarene Regional Guard, Lazarus near unanimously by a margin of 100%, with one abstaining vote, for a resolution to 'Empower the Regional Guard Against NPO affiliates'. This resolution allowed St Abbaddon, Communist Americas, and Azhukali, as NPO protectorates, and an ally, to be targeted for invasion or military interventionist measures, while under the control or support of the New Pacific Order. 

With St Abbaddon ceasing to be governed by the New Pacific Order, Lazarus seems to still be establishing a policy for future relations, with some suggestions of a treaty or strong relations, while most seem to wish for a positive relationship with St Abbaddon in the future, while pursing treaties with other regions for now. The concern on relations with St Abbaddon remains more in the existence of some New Pacific Order citizens still remaining there, though this doesn't seem to present a threat to future relations. 

Editorial Note: This is referencing the legislation.
 
Image
TREATY DISCUSSIONS WITH OSIRIS
By New Rogernomics
Image
Image

Osiris has been developing a strong diplomatic relationship with Lazarus, with both exchanging ambassadors, and no doubt helped along by the large number of dual citizens of both regions, and the friendly relationship that has been developing since the failed constitutional convention.

This climate of co-operation has led to a desire between both regions to improve the relationship both share with each other, with a treaty which hopes to improve cultural and military ties between both sinker regions, with a proposed 'Treaty of the Sun', now under formal discussion in both regions. 

While such a treaty is likely to pass with solid approval in both regions, the language of the draft text is still being worked on, with some language still to be worked out surrounding the security of both regions, and how each region will deal with individuals that are convicted of an offense in on region or both. 
 
Image
SKEPTICISM ON THE LAZCORP THEME
By New Rogernomics
Image
Image

Discussions have begun surrounding the LazCorp theme, and whether it should be the theme in the long-term, with expressions of interest in a Greek theme, and perhaps a vampire theme for Lazarus, though the later seems to have less support than the former, which some suggested could scare people away from the region if it wasn't done well enough. While some have also expressed the idea that Lazarus should avoid themes altogether, as they may be a distraction from running the region. 
 
Image
THE FUTURE OF LAZARENE DIPLOMACY
By New Rogernomics
Image
Image

Lazarus will have challenges in establishing firm diplomatic relations with other regions, both out of how the administration came to be established, and the structure of the government system itself. Though, to explain this fully requires a discussion on the context of Lazarene history, with Lazarus having to deal with what each previous administration brought to Lazarus, and the obstacles they still present today, most of that being resentment. While at first glance, some view the current Lazarene administration as a mix of autocracy and democracy, or an outright dictatorship, never set to change, I think that such an analysis seems to really ignore how Lazarus has been governed, and how the current system can be a positive step, rather than exclusively a negative one. 

When I joined Lazarus, it was under King Dezzland, who would later leave to pursue life outside of the region, and it was also the time of the Last Kingdom raid upon the region, one which I refused to participate in. It was also a time when Lazarus was run through a challenge system, which is something that lasted well into the period up to the People's Republic of Lazarus. Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your point of view, it led to a system where 'Lazarenes' could gather support in the region, and challenge the delegate democratically. The cost of this was the expulsion of 'imperialists', 'raiders', and long-term natives by Feux and Milograd, and an atmosphere created by the People's Republic of Lazarus where political minorities were actively discouraged or ejected from power or the region.

After a lot of effort, Kazmr, and those who supported him, including Funkadelia and Harmoneia, managed to fight and expel the New Pacific Order, inclusive of Feux and Milograd, from the region. This started the Humane Republic era of Lazarus, where Lazarus would have a fully democratic system, with regular delegate elections, and a ban on the leaders of the New Lazarene Order from the region. It would remain a firm supporter of the Founderless Regions Alliance or FRA, and be deeply resented by Balder, and other regions, due to the prior participation and support of it's citizens in the People's Repubic of Lazarus. It would have strong relations with The South Pacific, The Rejected Realms, born out of a respect for the defender alignment and mutual respect built both during the People's Republic of Lazarus and throughout the Humane Republic.

But this state of affairs would short-lived, when the Humane Republic began to develop political factions opposed to each other, after a brief calm, where Lazarus would re-establish diplomatic relations with the New Pacific Order, and work towards ending the defacto cold-war with Balder. Though these rifts wouldn't really come to pass till the Celestial Union, which had developed two opposing factions, led by Funkadelia and Lamb on one side, and much of Lazarus on the other, with New Pacific Order citizens manipulating both factions. This was made possible by the open diplomacy and open political system of Lazarus, which allowed full democratic participation, with no controls on who could hold the delegacy. It also had major flaws in security, which would include allowing infiltrators to reach the highest level of Lazarene government.

Lazarus would go through the Undead Dominion, and the Kharnate, before Imkiville with support of GCR regions, took Lazarus and established a constitutional convention with their support. Those successor states of Lazarus would receive differing levels of recognition, with Balder supporting somewhat the earlier, but both having a hostile relationship with both The Rejected Realms and The South Pacific, which would make it harder for the current administration to establish relations with them.

After the collapse of the constitutional convention, both The South Pacific and The Rejected Realms, have followed a policy of wait and see with Lazarus. Lazarus is after all not as democratically open as the Humane Republic was, nor does it have an open defender stance, or a treaty with either region. Though it is possible that relations may smooth over time, due to open participation of citizens of both regions within Lazarus, and over how the administration develops their political system.

There are some reasons for optimism, and of course reasons for concern about how the Lazarene political system is structured, and how it could be autocratic or dictatorial. Generally how authoritarian it is depends as much on the players involved, as it does the the construction of Mandate 12 and how Lazarene law is applied in practice. It is safe to say that Mandate 12 can be both a productive tool, as well as a constitution with unsettled questions. 

Lazarus is yet to settle the political issue that exists since the Humane Republic, which is the battle between the powers of the legislature, the executive officers, and the office of the delegate. All of which, if structured poorly, can lead to an unstable Lazarus or a stagnant system that grinds Lazarus to a halt.

Lazarus generally tends to a have system, continued under Mandate 12, with a strong executive Delegate, who appoints executive officers, who are then approved by a legislative assembly. It then has a court, appointed by the Delegate, and then approved again by a legislative assembly. Though, the issue that is presented by this is over a separation of powers. Should the Delegate in a sinker region have all this power? Or instead should there be a weak Delegate tasked with security, supplemented by a strong elected executive. Or should Lazarus instead take the risk of an elected Delegacy with a strong executive, which the Humane Republic and Celestial Union did, possibly leaving Lazarus open to an infiltrator to come and seize the delegacy.

The general feeling among Lazarenes is to avoid the last option, and to keep the Delegacy controlled either by trusted long-term natives, or by trusted citizens in general, who the region can be sure of not being foreign agents tasked with doing harm to the region or destabilizing it by sowing dissent. But of course having an un-elected executive, who can remain in power, will always be up to charges of suppressing democratic rights of the region. Lazarus will have difficulty diplomatically until it answers these questions, and decides on a system it is prepared to defend well into the future. The problem of balancing regional security with democratic freedoms will always be a complex one that will give Lazarus friends and enemies, well into the future.  

Lazarus may re-establish strong relations with The South Pacific, and eventually The Rejected Realms, and even form a strong relationship with Balder, with which it once had a hostile relationship. But the greatest difficulty in dealing with the Nationstates community will come from within Lazarus itself, and how Lazarus decides how to interact as a government and as a regional community. Whether it evolves to more democratic governance, or less democratic governance, will be up to the debate within Lazarus itself, and how other regions interact with Lazarus.

Though ignoring efforts Lazarus has made thus far towards democratic processes would be a mistake, in my opinion, as would pressuring it to the point it begins to resent other regions and begins to internalize itself. Lazarus may be a success story to some, but to most of the Nationstates community it is very much still for nations to make their minds up about. Though of course some have already made up their minds, rightly or wrongly, and resolved to accept the new Lazarus or to oppose it. 

Lazarus may be rising and rebuilding a community bit by bit, but it is still an open book, with a new history needing pen to be put to paper. Question is, what will that history be from hereon in? 

Disclaimer: This article was opinion, and as such is the view of a private citizen, and not the official position of Lazarus nor the Lazarene government.
 
Image

Image

Image
Last edited by New Rogernomics on Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:36 pm, edited 5 times in total.

User avatar
Pierconium
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1212
Founded: Antiquity
Father Knows Best State

Postby Pierconium » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:50 pm

Thank you for the coal. It gets cold in Pierconium during the winter.

Also, what’s Communist Americas?
Last edited by Pierconium on Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tyrant (Ret.)

Tell me what you regard as your greatest strength, so I will know how best to undermine you; tell me of your greatest fear, so I will know which I must force you to face; tell me what you cherish most, so I will know what to take from you; and tell me what you crave, so that I might deny you…

NPO - EMPIRE - TRIUMVIRATE - NPD

User avatar
Canton Empire
Senator
 
Posts: 4646
Founded: Mar 24, 2014
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Canton Empire » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:54 pm

Pierconium wrote:Thank you for the coal. It gets cold in Pierconium during the winter.

Tsk, Tsk, no solar panels there?
Former Vice Delegate of Lazarus, Guardian of Lazarus, Former Chief Justice of Lazarus, former Lazarene Ambassador to the East Pacific, founder, Republic of Channel Island
Offically Called a Silly boy by the real Donald Johnson

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to Gameplay

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Agalaesia, Connoll, Gagium, Layem, Sovereignius, The Noble Thatcherites, Thrales

Advertisement

Remove ads