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US Government Shutdown- It's Over!... For Now

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Will the government shutdown in three weeks?

Yes
103
77%
No
30
23%
 
Total votes : 133

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Kowani
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5025
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Kowani » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:27 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Kowani wrote:Communism tends to go a bit further than just economics though...

Yes but at its core it is an economic system. Plus for the vast majority of socialist states a vanguard party has clamped down on “anti-revolutionary thought”

That’s fair.
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Thermodolia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 49596
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:28 am

New haven america wrote:
Kowani wrote:Communism tends to go a bit further than just economics though...

Some could say that communism is the furthest extreme of socialism and involves both complete social and economic restructuring.

Oh wait that's exactly what it is.

Well ya I still don’t know why you think only a communist state would jail people for “anti-revolutionary Actions”. I said socialist state which is a bit different than socialism in the abstract.m


Either way the point was that IM would have a worse life under a dictatorship socialist or not
Last edited by Thermodolia on Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Thermodolia
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Posts: 49596
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:32 am

New haven america wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
Hmmmm...

I will have to think about those possibilities...

TBH, this rings true in any dictatorship, the richer you are the more of a threat you are to the government, and they will deal with you by any means necessary.

That's not your money (I honestly doubt that it is your money to begin with), it's the government's.

Unless you are super rich, and I mean bill gates rich, or an industrialist you’ll probably only lose your wealth under a socialist regime. Under any other system the super rich would more than likely be the ones running the show while those who are the “middle rich” would be removed from the money
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The World Capitalist Confederation
Diplomat
 
Posts: 723
Founded: Dec 07, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby The World Capitalist Confederation » Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:23 am

Thermodolia wrote:
New haven america wrote:TBH, this rings true in any dictatorship, the richer you are the more of a threat you are to the government, and they will deal with you by any means necessary.

That's not your money (I honestly doubt that it is your money to begin with), it's the government's.

Unless you are super rich, and I mean bill gates rich, or an industrialist you’ll probably only lose your wealth under a socialist regime. Under any other system the super rich would more than likely be the ones running the show while those who are the “middle rich” would be removed from the money

If you are super rich*. Socialism distributes property equally, therefore leading to less and possibly no inequality. The political system is another matter, although I personally support one run directly by the workers. Stop strawmanning socialism as though it's represented by Stalin and Mao alone.
Last edited by The World Capitalist Confederation on Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The World Capitalist Confederation
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Founded: Dec 07, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby The World Capitalist Confederation » Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:24 am

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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29546
Founded: Dec 18, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:21 am

It's been said before, but I want to make it clear.

There is no crysis on the US border. Trump is just fear mongering for the purpose of a wall.
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Hakons
Senator
 
Posts: 4345
Founded: Jul 14, 2015
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Hakons » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:59 am

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:It's been said before, but I want to make it clear.

There is no crysis on the US border. Trump is just fear mongering for the purpose of a wall.


>Trump is putting immigrant children in cages at the border
>There is no crisis at the border

Pick one.

There's not enough crisis to declare a national emergency, but there are dire humanitarian needs. Border security and personnel needs more help in processing and housing migrants.

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The South Falls
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10641
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The South Falls » Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:02 am

Hakons wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:It's been said before, but I want to make it clear.

There is no crysis on the US border. Trump is just fear mongering for the purpose of a wall.


>Trump is putting immigrant children in cages at the border
>There is no crisis at the border

Pick one.

There's not enough crisis to declare a national emergency, but there are dire humanitarian needs. Border security and personnel needs more help in processing and housing migrants.

Neither of those options requires a wall, that's the issue. More border security agents, and high-tech methods of information processing.
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Hakons
Senator
 
Posts: 4345
Founded: Jul 14, 2015
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Hakons » Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:10 am

The South Falls wrote:
Hakons wrote:
>Trump is putting immigrant children in cages at the border
>There is no crisis at the border

Pick one.

There's not enough crisis to declare a national emergency, but there are dire humanitarian needs. Border security and personnel needs more help in processing and housing migrants.

Neither of those options requires a wall, that's the issue. More border security agents, and high-tech methods of information processing.


I agree. A wall is a waste and would be a poor national symbol. Back a few years, Trump just brought up the wall as something that probably popped into his head while giving a speech. Then he stayed committed to it and now it's apparently a vital campaign promise.

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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29546
Founded: Dec 18, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:22 am

Hakons wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:It's been said before, but I want to make it clear.

There is no crysis on the US border. Trump is just fear mongering for the purpose of a wall.


>Trump is putting immigrant children in cages at the border
>There is no crisis at the border

Pick one.

There's not enough crisis to declare a national emergency, but there are dire humanitarian needs. Border security and personnel needs more help in processing and housing migrants.


There is, but that wasn't the non existent crisis Trump was referring to as an argument for his wall.
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Shofercia
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Posts: 28610
Founded: Feb 22, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:05 am

There is a crisis on the Southern border, but it's about drugs, not immigrants. So why don't we just give Trump's $5 billion border wall funding to the DEA and the Border Patrol, tell them "here's five billion, cut down the drug trade" and see how they want to spend it?
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Infected Mushroom
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Posts: 23783
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:08 am

What if the Democrats gave Trump his 5 billion for the wall, but in exchange ask for an additional 2-3 billion on a choice project of theirs?

Or does the US not have enough billions?
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Greater vakolicci haven
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10507
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:10 am

Shofercia wrote:There is a crisis on the Southern border, but it's about drugs, not immigrants. So why don't we just give Trump's $5 billion border wall funding to the DEA and the Border Patrol, tell them "here's five billion, cut down the drug trade" and see how they want to spend it?

Because the DEA are arseholes who don't have any idea of how due process works?

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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29546
Founded: Dec 18, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:14 am

Shofercia wrote:There is a crisis on the Southern border, but it's about drugs, not immigrants. So why don't we just give Trump's $5 billion border wall funding to the DEA and the Border Patrol, tell them "here's five billion, cut down the drug trade" and see how they want to spend it?

I'd be ok with that.
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Shofercia
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Founded: Feb 22, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:14 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:What if the Democrats gave Trump his 5 billion for the wall, but in exchange ask for an additional 2-3 billion on a choice project of theirs?

Or does the US not have enough billions?


Here's the thing - Dems don't want any walls, anymore. If they cave, a part of their base will be pissed off, and not vote for them. On the other hand, if there's no wall, Trump will be viewed as caving, thus losing a part of his base. This isn't about Republican Border Security, or Democrats caring about the poor little immigrant Jose, whom they are very happy for their donors to exploit with below minimum wage job offers. It's about the Presidential Election in 2020, which is why I think it'd be hilarious if Trump steps down and Pence runs. CNN/MSNBC will set a World Record in the switch from "muh Mueller Probe!" to "muh Gay Rights!"
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Thermodolia
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Posts: 49596
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:15 am

The World Capitalist Confederation wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Unless you are super rich, and I mean bill gates rich, or an industrialist you’ll probably only lose your wealth under a socialist regime. Under any other system the super rich would more than likely be the ones running the show while those who are the “middle rich” would be removed from the money

If you are super rich*. Socialism distributes property equally, therefore leading to less and possibly no inequality. The political system is another matter, although I personally support one run directly by the workers. Stop strawmanning socialism as though it's represented by Stalin and Mao alone.

That’s what I said. I guess I just wasn’t very clear. I was trying to say that under a socialist state if you are super rich you aren’t going to be for long. While under any other state you’d be running the show if you where super rich

And I’m not strawmaning anything. The vast majority of socialist states have been authoritarian states, and I say this as an authoritarian socialist.
Last edited by Thermodolia on Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Posts: 10507
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:16 am

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Shofercia wrote:There is a crisis on the Southern border, but it's about drugs, not immigrants. So why don't we just give Trump's $5 billion border wall funding to the DEA and the Border Patrol, tell them "here's five billion, cut down the drug trade" and see how they want to spend it?

I'd be ok with that.

Well, I mean...they should all be legalised and regulated anyway so no

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Olthar
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 59474
Founded: Jun 23, 2010
Corporate Police State

Postby Olthar » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:17 am

Shofercia wrote:There is a crisis on the Southern border, but it's about drugs, not immigrants. So why don't we just give Trump's $5 billion border wall funding to the DEA and the Border Patrol, tell them "here's five billion, cut down the drug trade" and see how they want to spend it?

So, instead of wasting money on a do nothing vanity project with no positive benefits, we waste money on a do nothing vanity project with no positive benefits that has better PR. The War on Drugs doesn't work.
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Infected Mushroom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
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Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:17 am

Shofercia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:What if the Democrats gave Trump his 5 billion for the wall, but in exchange ask for an additional 2-3 billion on a choice project of theirs?

Or does the US not have enough billions?


Here's the thing - Dems don't want any walls, anymore. If they cave, a part of their base will be pissed off, and not vote for them. On the other hand, if there's no wall, Trump will be viewed as caving, thus losing a part of his base. This isn't about Republican Border Security, or Democrats caring about the poor little immigrant Jose, whom they are very happy for their donors to exploit with below minimum wage job offers. It's about the Presidential Election in 2020, which is why I think it'd be hilarious if Trump steps down and Pence runs. CNN/MSNBC will set a World Record in the switch from "muh Mueller Probe!" to "muh Gay Rights!"


So why not give Trump his wall but get some other federal/National publicized left wing project that will offset (or theoretically offset) the political points docked?

Surely the Democrats want SOMETHING flashy and national that could be worth a few additional billions ?
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Shofercia
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28610
Founded: Feb 22, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:17 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Shofercia wrote:There is a crisis on the Southern border, but it's about drugs, not immigrants. So why don't we just give Trump's $5 billion border wall funding to the DEA and the Border Patrol, tell them "here's five billion, cut down the drug trade" and see how they want to spend it?

Because the DEA are arseholes who don't have any idea of how due process works?


Whereas Republicans and Democrats would never gut due process by passing the PATRIOT Act with record speed... Look, the Government is still shut down. Neither side is likely to cave. Workers are going to get pissed off if it stays shut down into March. This'll also cause the DEA to be even more assholish, as their salaries will start to depend on seized loot.


The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Shofercia wrote:There is a crisis on the Southern border, but it's about drugs, not immigrants. So why don't we just give Trump's $5 billion border wall funding to the DEA and the Border Patrol, tell them "here's five billion, cut down the drug trade" and see how they want to spend it?

I'd be ok with that.


Yay, compromise!
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If we tell the radical Republicans that there's proof that Global Warming doesn't exist in Death Valley, and the radical Democrats that there's proof of Russian Collusion there, would we have a better America?

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Thermodolia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 49596
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:19 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
Here's the thing - Dems don't want any walls, anymore. If they cave, a part of their base will be pissed off, and not vote for them. On the other hand, if there's no wall, Trump will be viewed as caving, thus losing a part of his base. This isn't about Republican Border Security, or Democrats caring about the poor little immigrant Jose, whom they are very happy for their donors to exploit with below minimum wage job offers. It's about the Presidential Election in 2020, which is why I think it'd be hilarious if Trump steps down and Pence runs. CNN/MSNBC will set a World Record in the switch from "muh Mueller Probe!" to "muh Gay Rights!"


So why not give Trump his wall but get some other federal/National publicized left wing project that will offset (or theoretically offset) the political points docked?

Surely the Democrats want SOMETHING flashy and national that could be worth a few additional billions ?

Unlike you the democrat base doesn’t want the democrats to be sell outs
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Shofercia
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Posts: 28610
Founded: Feb 22, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:20 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:I'd be ok with that.

Well, I mean...they should all be legalised and regulated anyway so no


Cocaine should be legalized and regulated?


Olthar wrote:
Shofercia wrote:There is a crisis on the Southern border, but it's about drugs, not immigrants. So why don't we just give Trump's $5 billion border wall funding to the DEA and the Border Patrol, tell them "here's five billion, cut down the drug trade" and see how they want to spend it?

So, instead of wasting money on a do nothing vanity project with no positive benefits, we waste money on a do nothing vanity project with no positive benefits that has better PR. The War on Drugs doesn't work.


I somehow doubt that busting El Chapo was a waste of money. The overall strategy of the War on Drugs is poorly thought out. Employing key tactics to stop cocaine at border crossings tends to work.
Ukraine - stop bombing innocent people! Pricks who burn other people alive should be punished.
Feel the Bern! Two actual females that can beat Trump: Gabbard & Klobuchar
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If we tell the radical Republicans that there's proof that Global Warming doesn't exist in Death Valley, and the radical Democrats that there's proof of Russian Collusion there, would we have a better America?

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Thermodolia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 49596
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:20 am

Shofercia wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Because the DEA are arseholes who don't have any idea of how due process works?


Whereas Republicans and Democrats would never gut due process by passing the PATRIOT Act with record speed... Look, the Government is still shut down. Neither side is likely to cave. Workers are going to get pissed off if it stays shut down into March. This'll also cause the DEA to be even more assholish, as their salaries will start to depend on seized loot.



Sounds like we need our own Red October but in March.
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Frievolk
Minister
 
Posts: 3368
Founded: Jun 14, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Frievolk » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:21 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
Here's the thing - Dems don't want any walls, anymore. If they cave, a part of their base will be pissed off, and not vote for them. On the other hand, if there's no wall, Trump will be viewed as caving, thus losing a part of his base. This isn't about Republican Border Security, or Democrats caring about the poor little immigrant Jose, whom they are very happy for their donors to exploit with below minimum wage job offers. It's about the Presidential Election in 2020, which is why I think it'd be hilarious if Trump steps down and Pence runs. CNN/MSNBC will set a World Record in the switch from "muh Mueller Probe!" to "muh Gay Rights!"


So why not give Trump his wall but get some other federal/National publicized left wing project that will offset (or theoretically offset) the political points docked?

Surely the Democrats want SOMETHING flashy and national that could be worth a few additional billions ?

The problem is that the Democrats shouldn't be compromising in the first place. Trump shouldn't even think about "I'll shut down the government. Surely they'll cave in.". The only rational response is "keep it shut down until you die lmao. You're not getting a penny for that wall.". Democrats have been caving for too long, and this is what they've ended up into.

On the other hand, even outside of stoic polity, their voter base would be very disappointed with them should they cave in, and we already know more people blame the government for the current situation than they do the congress, so keeping it shut down -while they can blame Trump for whatever the consequences- is only beneficial to them in the short -and long- run,
Last edited by Frievolk on Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:23 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Galloism
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 56760
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:21 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
Whereas Republicans and Democrats would never gut due process by passing the PATRIOT Act with record speed... Look, the Government is still shut down. Neither side is likely to cave. Workers are going to get pissed off if it stays shut down into March. This'll also cause the DEA to be even more assholish, as their salaries will start to depend on seized loot.



Sounds like we need our own Red October but in March.

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Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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