Nobody said it would be easy. The right thing to do is not always the easy thing of course.
The easy life is not the best life.
Besides there is a difference from living to fight another day and refusing to fight at all.
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by Novus America » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:48 pm
by Novus America » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:51 pm
by Neu Leonstein » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:15 pm
Tokora wrote:You always hear that you have to stay in the country to vote in the next election, but what about when that election is either rigged or never comes. What about when any kind of revolution is doomed to failure? Under what circumstances is it finally acceptable to abandon a country sliding into a dictatorship?
by Novus America » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:23 pm
Neu Leonstein wrote:Tokora wrote:You always hear that you have to stay in the country to vote in the next election, but what about when that election is either rigged or never comes. What about when any kind of revolution is doomed to failure? Under what circumstances is it finally acceptable to abandon a country sliding into a dictatorship?
I think you try and impose a binary here where there is no need. It's not about 'dictatorship or democracy'. It's about whether or not you think that the politics and society of the country are a good place for you to live, and whether your indirect support of the politics is justifiable given your ethics.
People usually use 'love it or leave it' as an aggressive slogan meant to shut down the expression of differing opinions by implying hypocrisy and rhetorically expelling those who disagree from the community. But if you rightly ignore that and just take the slogan literally, it's not that bad a maxim.
There is no obligation to hang around to vote. There is no obligation to hang around at all. People should be far more open to emigration than most are. Personally, I think a person who has only ever lived in one country has failed to live their life fully, much the same as someone who has never left their 200-soul birth village.
So no, I think 'abandon a country' is the wrong terminology to use. Do you like the place you live? If so, great. If not, why not go somewhere you think will be better? Whether the reason is your salary, the quality of the local schools or the views of the President on interracial relations is not terribly relevant.
by Peoples Cities » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:09 pm
by Ters Althria » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:04 am
by Novus America » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:25 am
by Thermodolia » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:40 am
by Izaakia » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:54 am
Novus America wrote:Liriena wrote:Because we've only got one life to live and sometimes it ain't worth losing, even for a good cause.
If you only have one life make it mean something.
You only die once, so it is better to die doing good then to live a life where you do not do good.
There is no need to needlessly die, but if you can do better risking your life than not risking it, it is a risk worth taking.
by Novus America » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:06 am
Izaakia wrote:Novus America wrote:
If you only have one life make it mean something.
You only die once, so it is better to die doing good then to live a life where you do not do good.
There is no need to needlessly die, but if you can do better risking your life than not risking it, it is a risk worth taking.
Why die for something you won’t benefit from?
by Izaakia » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:08 am
by Novus America » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:20 am
by Thermodolia » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:29 am
Izaakia wrote:Novus America wrote:
If you only have one life make it mean something.
You only die once, so it is better to die doing good then to live a life where you do not do good.
There is no need to needlessly die, but if you can do better risking your life than not risking it, it is a risk worth taking.
Why die for something you won’t benefit from?
by Lanoraie II » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:00 pm
by The Slightly Madlands » Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:40 pm
Lanoraie II wrote:The problem isn't so much when, it's where; where will you go? Is anywhere truly safe and free anymore? Maybe, but I'm slowly running out of countries I'd flee to as freedom of speech gets obliterated worldwide. And I don't even really have much to say...
by UniversalCommons » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:42 pm
by Novus America » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:51 pm
UniversalCommons wrote:There is such a thing as democratic socialists, but the country has to be very homogenous with a strong singular culture like Norway or Sweden or else it won't work very well at all. The places with successful democratic socialist governments tend not to be very diverse in opinion or culture.
by Dushan » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:18 pm
by UniversalCommons » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:26 pm
Novus America wrote:UniversalCommons wrote:There is such a thing as democratic socialists, but the country has to be very homogenous with a strong singular culture like Norway or Sweden or else it won't work very well at all. The places with successful democratic socialist governments tend not to be very diverse in opinion or culture.
Norway and Sweden are NOT democratic socialist and do NOT have democratic socialist governments.
They are social democratic.
The problem is that most people in the US use the terms social democracy and democratic socialism interchangeably, despite the fact these are different things.
Socialists only have 12 out of 169 seats in Norway and 28 out of 349 seats in Sweden. Socialism is a minor fringe in both countries, which are dominated by centrist, Christian Democratic and Social Democratic parties.
by Novus America » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:04 pm
UniversalCommons wrote:Novus America wrote:
Norway and Sweden are NOT democratic socialist and do NOT have democratic socialist governments.
They are social democratic.
The problem is that most people in the US use the terms social democracy and democratic socialism interchangeably, despite the fact these are different things.
Socialists only have 12 out of 169 seats in Norway and 28 out of 349 seats in Sweden. Socialism is a minor fringe in both countries, which are dominated by centrist, Christian Democratic and Social Democratic parties.
I thought they were socialists who were democrats. So tell me is it like the word liberal where it means one thing when you talk about trade and another thing when you talk about politics? Enlighten me.
If you feel the need to leave because you fear for your livelihood and life do it. Both of my sets of great grandparents left before trouble started. On one of my grandparents side, there is a patch of flat empty ground where there was once a town. There is nothing there. A lot of people want your property more than they want you, or they just don't like you and want you not to be there. It is usually the state which tries to kill you, it is very hard for an individual to kill without indoctrination or being part of a crowd.
When the state starts deciding to put you in camps, organizes mass night attacks against your people, or starts being violent on a mass organized scale, it is time to go.
by UniversalCommons » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:29 pm
Novus America wrote:UniversalCommons wrote:
I thought they were socialists who were democrats. So tell me is it like the word liberal where it means one thing when you talk about trade and another thing when you talk about politics? Enlighten me.
If you feel the need to leave because you fear for your livelihood and life do it. Both of my sets of great grandparents left before trouble started. On one of my grandparents side, there is a patch of flat empty ground where there was once a town. There is nothing there. A lot of people want your property more than they want you, or they just don't like you and want you not to be there. It is usually the state which tries to kill you, it is very hard for an individual to kill without indoctrination or being part of a crowd.
When the state starts deciding to put you in camps, organizes mass night attacks against your people, or starts being violent on a mass organized scale, it is time to go.
You thought incorrectly then. Neither country is socialist, and again even democratic socialists make a small minority in those countries. They are democratic. But NOT socialist.
They are in fact both quite pro business.
Nordic style social democracy combines pro business policies, cooperative labor relations AND an extensive welfare state.
The false dichotomy that being pro business and pro welfare are mutually exclusive is not a real thing there. Because many Americans (such as AOC and Bernie) cannot comprehend that not everything is adversarial and that you can be pro labor, pro welfare AND a pro business capitalist at the same time said Americans do not comprehend Nordic Social Democracy.
It is more than using an incorrect descriptive, it is a complete failure of comprehension.
True there are times fleeing (like the Jews in Nazi areas is the only real option.
But if you are not being specifically targeted for genocide fleeing is probably not strictly necessary and fleeing will not make things any better for those remaining behind, it will make things worse.
by New haven america » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:31 pm
Izaakia wrote:Novus America wrote:
If you only have one life make it mean something.
You only die once, so it is better to die doing good then to live a life where you do not do good.
There is no need to needlessly die, but if you can do better risking your life than not risking it, it is a risk worth taking.
Why die for something you won’t benefit from?
by Novus America » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:34 pm
UniversalCommons wrote:Novus America wrote:
You thought incorrectly then. Neither country is socialist, and again even democratic socialists make a small minority in those countries. They are democratic. But NOT socialist.
They are in fact both quite pro business.
Nordic style social democracy combines pro business policies, cooperative labor relations AND an extensive welfare state.
The false dichotomy that being pro business and pro welfare are mutually exclusive is not a real thing there. Because many Americans (such as AOC and Bernie) cannot comprehend that not everything is adversarial and that you can be pro labor, pro welfare AND a pro business capitalist at the same time said Americans do not comprehend Nordic Social Democracy.
It is more than using an incorrect descriptive, it is a complete failure of comprehension.
True there are times fleeing (like the Jews in Nazi areas is the only real option.
But if you are not being specifically targeted for genocide fleeing is probably not strictly necessary and fleeing will not make things any better for those remaining behind, it will make things worse.
Even if it is not genocide, you can become part of a planned underclass with very few resources. Your schools can be shut down, your community torn apart, jobs become harder to find and menial, and it becomes harder to leave. The government zones you into districts which are poorer, have less property value, and are segregated.
by UniversalCommons » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:08 pm
Novus America wrote:UniversalCommons wrote:
Even if it is not genocide, you can become part of a planned underclass with very few resources. Your schools can be shut down, your community torn apart, jobs become harder to find and menial, and it becomes harder to leave. The government zones you into districts which are poorer, have less property value, and are segregated.
But in those cases while it will be tough, you can still live and try to make things better.
Running away in that case will just make things worse for those left behind and better for the dictatorship.
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