LWDT VI: Kropotkin's Bread Dead Redemption.

[Liriena]

Some of us have friends among those who have gone.

Do not gloatpost, I am soft.

I am sorry. I tried not to make it sound like I was gloating and clearly I failed.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

I agree with ideals that are traditionally considered right-wing such as family values and national pride, but some of its more extreme beliefs...I just cannot bring myself to believe 'em.

I don't really agree with either of those ideals at all, and that might have a lot to do with me growing up in a society where I could see the terrible, negative consequences of both. National pride got us into the Falklands War, one of the most pointless and embarrassing wastes of Argentine lives ever. It also got turned into a propaganda tool for some very awful people (see, how our last dictatorship manipulated national pride through the 1978 football world cup). And as for right-wing family values... well, let's just say I wouldn't wish an Opus Dei upbringing on my worst enemy.

However, I do understand the appeal of both. We live in an era of increasing social atomization and alienation, meaning that many of us struggle with the feeling like our existence is very solitary and has no greater meaning. National pride and family values are simple, comfortable solutions to this problem, considering that they are traditional, built into our cultural hegemony and thus easier to embrace than a more forward-thinking, emancipatory alternative. I can empathize with people, specially older people, who can feel the stress provoked by isolation and yearn for the olden days of closely knit family structures and community life.

I grew up in a Portuguese family, and one of the core values of a Portuguese person is that, family.

Hence my strong belief that the family is one of the most important cohesive units of society.

[Liriena]

I don't really agree with either of those ideals at all, and that might have a lot to do with me growing up in a society where I could see the terrible, negative consequences of both. National pride got us into the Falklands War, one of the most pointless and embarrassing wastes of Argentine lives ever. It also got turned into a propaganda tool for some very awful people (see, how our last dictatorship manipulated national pride through the 1978 football world cup). And as for right-wing family values... well, let's just say I wouldn't wish an Opus Dei upbringing on my worst enemy.

However, I do understand the appeal of both. We live in an era of increasing social atomization and alienation, meaning that many of us struggle with the feeling like our existence is very solitary and has no greater meaning. National pride and family values are simple, comfortable solutions to this problem, considering that they are traditional, built into our cultural hegemony and thus easier to embrace than a more forward-thinking, emancipatory alternative. I can empathize with people, specially older people, who can feel the stress provoked by isolation and yearn for the olden days of closely knit family structures and community life.

I grew up in a Portuguese family, and one of the core values of a Portuguese person is that, family.

Hence my strong belief that the family is one of the most important cohesive units of society.

Ngl, there's a lot to criticize about traditionalist ideas of family and the conventional nuclear family, but when you've got a strong, closely knit and mostly healthy family dynamic going, it's wonderful.

[Autarkheia]

Not gloating, but I won't miss Mardla. Not because he was an open bigot (though he proudly said he was) but because he was just really, really frustrating to discuss anything with. The kind of online arguments that are like pulling teeth, you know?

[Silver Commonwealth]

Not gloating, but I won't miss Mardla. Not because he was an open bigot (though he proudly said he was) but because he was just really, really frustrating to discuss anything with. The kind of online arguments that are like pulling teeth, you know?

Wait, what happened to Mardla?

[Western Vale Confederacy]

I grew up in a Portuguese family, and one of the core values of a Portuguese person is that, family.

Hence my strong belief that the family is one of the most important cohesive units of society.

Ngl, there's a lot to criticize about traditionalist ideas of family and the conventional nuclear family, but when you've got a strong, closely knit and mostly healthy family dynamic going, it's wonderful.

We're a family of bastards (as in illegitimate children) and I can count three openly homosexual family members on both sides, yet most of us stand together.

This is where my family values diverge from the traditional right: my belief that even the LGBT can be part of the family and found families. It's better to have two parents of the same sex or have an LGBT sibling than to stand alone.

[Liriena]

Not gloating, but I won't miss Mardla. Not because he was an open bigot (though he proudly said he was) but because he was just really, really frustrating to discuss anything with. The kind of online arguments that are like pulling teeth, you know?

I miss TEM. :c

[Liriena]

Not gloating, but I won't miss Mardla. Not because he was an open bigot (though he proudly said he was) but because he was just really, really frustrating to discuss anything with. The kind of online arguments that are like pulling teeth, you know?

Wait, what happened to Mardla?

He's voluntarily left the forums.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Mardla is a friend who has been very good to me despite political differences, someone who has shown integrity on multiple occasions over the years during cliquey bullshit here and elsewhere.

I'm not quite so attached to some of the others, but I think that they were spot on over the recent issue (which has lowered my opinion of a number of other forum regulars considerably) and their absence is sad because I don't want the RWDT to die or be filled only by drive-by Hitlerists.

[Genivaria]

In an attempt to steer the thread away from gloating I ask this.


Do you think that the left can make capitalism work for the good of all and that some aspects are worth preserving? Or do you think that capitalism is inherently harmful and must be done away with entirely?

I'd support the former position and say that the tendency of capitalism to create quality products is admirable and worth preserving, the problem is that sometimes that quality product can be so expensive to produce that it becomes inaccessible to many.

This is an accurate description of the American healthcare system imo.

[Liriena]

In an attempt to steer the thread away from gloating I ask this.
Do you think that the left can make capitalism work for the good of all and that some aspects are worth preserving? Or do you think that capitalism is inherently harmful and must be done away with entirely? I'd support the former position and say that the tendency of capitalism to create quality products is admirable and worth preserving, the problem is that sometimes that quality product can be so expensive to produce that it becomes inaccessible to many.
This is an accurate description of the American healthcare system imo.

I have mixed feelings on this, to be honest. A part of me does still feel that capitalism is worth preserving, albeit in a radically altered form. But another part of me thinks that, at this point, it's kind of unsalvageable and its very core is rotten.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

In an attempt to steer the thread away from gloating I ask this.


Do you think that the left can make capitalism work for the good of all and that some aspects are worth preserving? Or do you think that capitalism is inherently harmful and must be done away with entirely?

I'd support the former position and say that the tendency of capitalism to create quality products is admirable and worth preserving, the problem is that sometimes that quality product can be so expensive to produce that it becomes inaccessible to many.

This is an accurate description of the American healthcare system imo.

Nationalization of key industries, and sensible restraints on the rest of the system.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

I agree with ideals that are traditionally considered right-wing such as family values and national pride, but some of its more extreme beliefs...I just cannot bring myself to believe 'em.

IMO, the Right has claimed ownership over good values. Roy Bhaskar, a libertarian Marxist, argued that those values are better understood as left-wing moral realism. Many of the values which has [edit: have] been claimed by social conservatives have been placed into a Leftist context by Bhaskar.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

I agree with ideals that are traditionally considered right-wing such as family values and national pride, but some of its more extreme beliefs...I just cannot bring myself to believe 'em.

IMO, the Right has claimed ownership over good values. Roy Bhaskar, a libertarian Marxist, argued that those values are better understood as left-wing moral realism. Many of the values which has been claimed by social conservatives have been placed into a Leftist context by Bhaskar.

Okay, this makes no sense...

You blame conservatives for claiming good values, and instantly proceed to go "ackshually, it's leftism that did 'em!"...

[Proctopeo]

I think you missed a lot.

I've been catching up on it all. Nap deserved what he got, and Mardla was unequivocally a bigot.

That being said, thanks for confirming the axiom that right-libs will always side with fashies and reactionaries.

It's more that respectable people will side with someone of virtually any creed to dab on pedophilia and pedophilia apologism.

Mardla is a friend who has been very good to me despite political differences, someone who has shown integrity on multiple occasions over the years during cliquey bullshit here and elsewhere.

I'm not quite so attached to some of the others, but I think that they were spot on over the recent issue (which has lowered my opinion of a number of other forum regulars considerably) and their absence is sad because I don't want the RWDT to die or be filled only by drive-by Hitlerists.

I mean yeah, I disagree with him on a whole hell of a lot, but I never had any problems with him as a person.

IMO, the Right has claimed ownership over good values. Roy Bhaskar, a libertarian Marxist, argued that those values are better understood as left-wing moral realism. Many of the values which has been claimed by social conservatives have been placed into a Leftist context by Bhaskar.

Okay, this makes no sense...

You blame conservatives for claiming good values, and instantly proceed to go "ackshually, it's leftism that did 'em!"...

This is the political equivalent of "actually, [x] group invented [y]" despite evidence to the contrary.

[Autarkheia]

Do you think that the left can make capitalism work for the good of all and that some aspects are worth preserving? Or do you think that capitalism is inherently harmful and must be done away with entirely?

I'd support the former position and say that the tendency of capitalism to create quality products is admirable and worth preserving, the problem is that sometimes that quality product can be so expensive to produce that it becomes inaccessible to many.

This is an accurate description of the American healthcare system imo.

I used to be a lot further left and would have said capitalism needs to be abolished, but now I don't think that is a realistic option. Now I would say that a mixed economy with more socialistic features would be best.

Capitalism has good things about it, but it is amoral because it is profit-driven.

[Liriena]

Do you think that the left can make capitalism work for the good of all and that some aspects are worth preserving? Or do you think that capitalism is inherently harmful and must be done away with entirely?

I'd support the former position and say that the tendency of capitalism to create quality products is admirable and worth preserving, the problem is that sometimes that quality product can be so expensive to produce that it becomes inaccessible to many.

This is an accurate description of the American healthcare system imo.

I used to be a lot further left and would have said capitalism needs to be abolished, but now I don't think that is a realistic option. Now I would say that a mixed economy with more socialistic features would be best.

Capitalism has good things about it, but it is amoral because it is profit-driven.

My basic stance is "capitalism with continuous democratic socialist reforms in the short term, but with an anarchist society as the long-term goal". I'm not as convinced as some friends of mine are that the revolutionary approach is viable right now.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Okay, this makes no sense...

You blame conservatives for claiming good values, and instantly proceed to go "ackshually, it's leftism that did 'em!"...

I never blamed anyone for anything.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

I used to be a lot further left and would have said capitalism needs to be abolished, but now I don't think that is a realistic option. Now I would say that a mixed economy with more socialistic features would be best.

Capitalism has good things about it, but it is amoral because it is profit-driven.

My basic stance is "capitalism with continuous democratic socialist reforms in the short term, but with an anarchist society as the long-term goal". I'm not as convinced as some friends of mine are that the revolutionary approach is viable right now.

*sees anarchism*

It appears my statist senses are being triggered..

[Aellex]

I've been catching up on it all. Nap deserved what he got, and Mardla was unequivocally a bigot.

That being said, thanks for confirming the axiom that right-libs will always side with fashies and reactionaries.

And confirming the axiom that left-libs will always side with pedophiles truly makes that a glorious victory and leave you standing on the moral high-ground once you're done vilipending those dirty right-libs for daring to be disgusted by kiddie diddling.
Or maybe that's a bigoted and age-ophobic term too? We gotta call it "ephebophilia" rather to make sure people who defend prostituting kids don't feel shocked?

Despite all our clashing, I quite like you Liri so know that I'm not saying that at you in particular however Nap really didn't deserve what he got and he indeed did nothing wrong.

[Northern Davincia]

I've been catching up on it all. Nap deserved what he got, and Mardla was unequivocally a bigot.

That being said, thanks for confirming the axiom that right-libs will always side with fashies and reactionaries.

And confirming the axiom that left-libs will always side with pedophiles truly makes that a glorious victory and leave you standing on the moral high-ground once you're done vilipending those dirty right-libs for daring to be disgusted by kiddie diddling.
Or maybe that's a bigoted and age-ophobic term too? We gotta call it "ephebophilia" rather to make sure people who defend prostituting kids don't feel shocked?

Despite all our clashing, I quite like you Liri so know that I'm not saying that at you in particular however Nap really didn't deserve what he got and he indeed did nothing wrong.

Right-libs are making progress with driving out pedophiles from our ranks, but it's a recent advancement.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

And confirming the axiom that left-libs will always side with pedophiles truly makes that a glorious victory and leave you standing on the moral high-ground once you're done vilipending those dirty right-libs for daring to be disgusted by kiddie diddling.
Or maybe that's a bigoted and age-ophobic term too? We gotta call it "ephebophilia" rather to make sure people who defend prostituting kids don't feel shocked?

Despite all our clashing, I quite like you Liri so know that I'm not saying that at you in particular however Nap really didn't deserve what he got and he indeed did nothing wrong.

Right-libs are making progress with driving out pedophiles from our ranks, but it's a recent advancement.

Let me guess, the clergy?

Those are often the right's own skeletons when it comes to the issue of pedophilia.

[Valrifell]

I've been catching up on it all. Nap deserved what he got, and Mardla was unequivocally a bigot.

That being said, thanks for confirming the axiom that right-libs will always side with fashies and reactionaries.

And confirming the axiom that left-libs will always side with pedophiles truly makes that a glorious victory and leave you standing on the moral high-ground once you're done vilipending those dirty right-libs for daring to be disgusted by kiddie diddling.
Or maybe that's a bigoted and age-ophobic term too? We gotta call it "ephebophilia" rather to make sure people who defend prostituting kids don't feel shocked?

Despite all our clashing, I quite like you Liri so know that I'm not saying that at you in particular however Nap really didn't deserve what he got and he indeed did nothing wrong.

Calling out players in fields where they can not respond (customizable fields/sigs) has always been against the rules.

[Valrifell]

Right-libs are making progress with driving out pedophiles from our ranks, but it's a recent advancement.

Let me guess, the clergy?

No, 4Chan

*shudders*

[Northern Davincia]

Right-libs are making progress with driving out pedophiles from our ranks, but it's a recent advancement.

Let me guess, the clergy?

Those are often the right's own skeletons when it comes to the issue of pedophilia.

Not the clergy in this case. A number of right-libertarians don't see ephebophilia as contradictory to the NAP, or operate on the logic of "what if the child consents tho?!"
Then the Hoppeans (or just slightly more conservative libertarians) came along and saved the day.