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Why do/don't you believe in a higher power? (Any HP)

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:47 am

Uan aa Boa wrote:
Alvecia wrote:A Dragon in my Garage would be a better comparison perhaps.

Presumably a dragon in your garage would have to be physically present within a small defined volume of space and detectable in the usual ways we use to detect physical objects. I don't think many believers suggest that God is physically present in space in this way.

It's a hypothetical talked about by Carl Sagan in, I believe, The Demon-Haunted World
This site has a good breakdown of it
http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm

Edit: Might as well put it here, it's just text
"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage"

Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle -- but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so. The only thing you've really learned from my insistence that there's a dragon in my garage is that something funny is going on inside my head. You'd wonder, if no physical tests apply, what convinced me. The possibility that it was a dream or a hallucination would certainly enter your mind. But then, why am I taking it so seriously? Maybe I need help. At the least, maybe I've seriously underestimated human fallibility. Imagine that, despite none of the tests being successful, you wish to be scrupulously open-minded. So you don't outright reject the notion that there's a fire-breathing dragon in my garage. You merely put it on hold. Present evidence is strongly against it, but if a new body of data emerge you're prepared to examine it and see if it convinces you. Surely it's unfair of me to be offended at not being believed; or to criticize you for being stodgy and unimaginative -- merely because you rendered the Scottish verdict of "not proved."

Imagine that things had gone otherwise. The dragon is invisible, all right, but footprints are being made in the flour as you watch. Your infrared detector reads off-scale. The spray paint reveals a jagged crest bobbing in the air before you. No matter how skeptical you might have been about the existence of dragons -- to say nothing about invisible ones -- you must now acknowledge that there's something here, and that in a preliminary way it's consistent with an invisible, fire-breathing dragon.

Now another scenario: Suppose it's not just me. Suppose that several people of your acquaintance, including people who you're pretty sure don't know each other, all tell you that they have dragons in their garages -- but in every case the evidence is maddeningly elusive. All of us admit we're disturbed at being gripped by so odd a conviction so ill-supported by the physical evidence. None of us is a lunatic. We speculate about what it would mean if invisible dragons were really hiding out in garages all over the world, with us humans just catching on. I'd rather it not be true, I tell you. But maybe all those ancient European and Chinese myths about dragons weren't myths at all.

Gratifyingly, some dragon-size footprints in the flour are now reported. But they're never made when a skeptic is looking. An alternative explanation presents itself. On close examination it seems clear that the footprints could have been faked. Another dragon enthusiast shows up with a burnt finger and attributes it to a rare physical manifestation of the dragon's fiery breath. But again, other possibilities exist. We understand that there are other ways to burn fingers besides the breath of invisible dragons. Such "evidence" -- no matter how important the dragon advocates consider it -- is far from compelling. Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion.
Last edited by Alvecia on Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:48 am

The Free Joy State wrote:
Alvecia wrote:A Dragon in my Garage would be a better comparison perhaps.

I appreciate you haven't got any fresh blood in awhile, but perhaps save it for those who were actually arguing? Okay? I merely expressed a -- not especially vocal -- opinion in a thread that asks for my opinion.

And to answer Salandriagado: I researched multiple religions and beliefs, read extensively, realised that I couldn't be sure and then chose to take a blind leap.

Sorry, that wasn't meant to be an attack. I was just contributing to the topic being discussed.
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Uan aa Boa
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Postby Uan aa Boa » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:59 am

Alvecia wrote:
Uan aa Boa wrote:Presumably a dragon in your garage would have to be physically present within a small defined volume of space and detectable in the usual ways we use to detect physical objects. I don't think many believers suggest that God is physically present in space in this way.

It's a hypothetical talked about by Carl Sagan in, I believe, The Demon-Haunted World

I know where it comes from. It's also a bad analogy when Sagan makes it and when Antony Flew sets up the same point as the invisible gardener. It doesn't work because an incorporeal dragon is a category error - physical presence is part of what we understand to be involved in being a dragon (or a gardener). The question of God is different because very few people expect that God, if such a thing existed, should be revealed using UV paint and flour on the floor.

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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:09 am

Uan aa Boa wrote:
Alvecia wrote:It's a hypothetical talked about by Carl Sagan in, I believe, The Demon-Haunted World

I know where it comes from. It's also a bad analogy when Sagan makes it and when Antony Flew sets up the same point as the invisible gardener. It doesn't work because an incorporeal dragon is a category error - physical presence is part of what we understand to be involved in being a dragon (or a gardener). The question of God is different because very few people expect that God, if such a thing existed, should be revealed using UV paint and flour on the floor.

I'm quite sure the hypothetical isn't suggesting that we look for god with UV paint and flour. The point is that by every measure we have, there's no difference between a god that exists, and one that does not.
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That there is no exception to the rule "There is an exception to every rule" is the exception that proves the rule.
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Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll stop asking you to catch his fish.
That's not happening
That shouldn't be happening
Why is that happening?
That's why it's happening?
How has this ever worked?

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Uan aa Boa
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Postby Uan aa Boa » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:27 am

Alvecia wrote:I'm quite sure the hypothetical isn't suggesting that we look for god with UV paint and flour. The point is that by every measure we have, there's no difference between a god that exists, and one that does not.

Are you sure that claims are being made that you'd expect to be verifiable with the measures we have? Is there any more here than the observation that God would not be a physical phenomenon? People tend not to make the same criticism of human rights, for instance, despite these being invisible to every available means of detection.

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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:31 am

Uan aa Boa wrote:
Alvecia wrote:I'm quite sure the hypothetical isn't suggesting that we look for god with UV paint and flour. The point is that by every measure we have, there's no difference between a god that exists, and one that does not.

Are you sure that claims are being made that you'd expect to be verifiable with the measures we have? Is there any more here than the observation that God would not be a physical phenomenon? People tend not to make the same criticism of human rights, for instance, despite these being invisible to every available means of detection.

That would mean reclassifying god to something not understood by what I imagine are the majority of the people who believe in him. Reducing him to a mere concept, incapable of many of the things attributed to him.
You can do so, if that's how you see him I suppose, but at that point he's as subjective as any other concept or idea.
Last edited by Alvecia on Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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That there is no exception to the rule "There is an exception to every rule" is the exception that proves the rule.
---
Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll stop asking you to catch his fish.
That's not happening
That shouldn't be happening
Why is that happening?
That's why it's happening?
How has this ever worked?

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Uan aa Boa
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Postby Uan aa Boa » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:57 am

Alvecia wrote:That would mean reclassifying god to something not understood by what I imagine are the majority of the people who believe in him. Reducing him to a mere concept, incapable of many of the things attributed to him.
You can do so, if that's how you see him I suppose, but at that point he's as subjective as any other concept or idea.

I'm not suggesting reclassifying God as a concept, but neither is it breaking news that the Hubble telescope isn't picking up images of a cosmic man with a big beard. All I'm saying is that we can get a long way into discussing the existence of God without actually deciding what we'd expect the existence of God to entail.

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Bluelight-R006
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Postby Bluelight-R006 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:00 am

I’m a Christian, and through his word, the Bible. (Which was penned down by men who got thoughts from God through dreams and visions)
Prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by Holy Spirit.
— 2 Peter 1:21

It is scientifically accurate,
All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching.
— 2 Timothy 3:16

and has fulfilled many prophecies, some recently and currently happening:
For example...
• Today’s harsh world
”In the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power.”
— 2 Timothy 3:1-5

”There will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another food shortages and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and from heaven great signs.”
— Luke 21:11

“When you hear of wars and reports of wars, do not be alarmed; these things must take place, but the end is not yet.”
— Mark 13:7

• Satan cast down to Earth in 1914, proved through World War I’s start in September 1914, around the same time Satan cast down
TIMELINE OF EVENTS
Jerusalem destroyed in 607BCE
Let seven times pass.
— Daniel 4:16

It was recorded in the Bible 3 1/2 times = 1260 days, so 7 times = 2520 days (1260 x 2 = 2520).
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God and where they would feed her for 1,260 days.
— Revelations 12:6

2520 years was meant, not days as... one day is one year in the Bible prophecies.
According to the number of the days that you spied out the land, 40 days, a day for a year, a day for a year, you will answer for your errors 40 years, for you will know what it means to oppose me.
— Numbers 14:34

607 BCE > 1913 CE, thus Satan was hurled down to Earth in 1913-14.
The Bible is also scientifically accurate, and is proven even by just one scripture:
”There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth.”
— Isaiah 40:22, denoting the Earth is round.

Why I keep my faith despite of current suffering: People say there’s no God, or else he’d fix everything, but we know that...
The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.
— 1 John 5:19

But there’ll be... a paradise, which strengthens my hope for the future:
With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.
— Revelation 21:3-4

Just as I have brought respect towards your opinions, please do not attack my beliefs. You can always telegram me for a question. I don’t like to check the same thread.
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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:26 am

God seems to be ever moving goal posts.

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Salandriagado
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Postby Salandriagado » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:55 am

Uan aa Boa wrote:
Alvecia wrote:I'm quite sure the hypothetical isn't suggesting that we look for god with UV paint and flour. The point is that by every measure we have, there's no difference between a god that exists, and one that does not.

Are you sure that claims are being made that you'd expect to be verifiable with the measures we have? Is there any more here than the observation that God would not be a physical phenomenon? People tend not to make the same criticism of human rights, for instance, despite these being invisible to every available means of detection.


"Not a physical phenomenon" is the same thing as "doesn't exist".
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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The Caleshan Valkyrie
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Postby The Caleshan Valkyrie » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:55 am

Bluelight-R006 wrote:
I’m a Christian, and through his word, the Bible. (Which was penned down by men who got thoughts from God through dreams and visions)
Prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by Holy Spirit.
— 2 Peter 1:21

It is scientifically accurate,
All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching.
— 2 Timothy 3:16

and has fulfilled many prophecies, some recently and currently happening:
For example...
• Today’s harsh world
”In the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power.”
— 2 Timothy 3:1-5

”There will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another food shortages and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and from heaven great signs.”
— Luke 21:11

“When you hear of wars and reports of wars, do not be alarmed; these things must take place, but the end is not yet.”
— Mark 13:7

• Satan cast down to Earth in 1914, proved through World War I’s start in September 1914, around the same time Satan cast down
TIMELINE OF EVENTS
Jerusalem destroyed in 607BCE
Let seven times pass.
— Daniel 4:16

It was recorded in the Bible 3 1/2 times = 1260 days, so 7 times = 2520 days (1260 x 2 = 2520).
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God and where they would feed her for 1,260 days.
— Revelations 12:6

2520 years was meant, not days as... one day is one year in the Bible prophecies.
According to the number of the days that you spied out the land, 40 days, a day for a year, a day for a year, you will answer for your errors 40 years, for you will know what it means to oppose me.
— Numbers 14:34

607 BCE > 1913 CE, thus Satan was hurled down to Earth in 1913-14.
The Bible is also scientifically accurate, and is proven even by just one scripture:
”There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth.”
— Isaiah 40:22, denoting the Earth is round.

Why I keep my faith despite of current suffering: People say there’s no God, or else he’d fix everything, but we know that...
The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.
— 1 John 5:19

But there’ll be... a paradise, which strengthens my hope for the future:
With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.
— Revelation 21:3-4

Just as I have brought respect towards your opinions, please do not attack my beliefs. You can always telegram me for a question. I don’t like to check the same thread.


Scientifically accurate? Excuse me whilst I laugh in genuine amusement.
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Salandriagado
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Postby Salandriagado » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:02 am

Bluelight-R006 wrote:I’m a Christian, and through his word, the Bible. (Which was penned down by men who got thoughts from God through dreams and visions)
Prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by Holy Spirit.
— 2 Peter 1:21

It is scientifically accurate,


No it isn't.

All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching.
— 2 Timothy 3:16

and has fulfilled many prophecies, some recently and currently happening:


Almost all of them either wrong, written after the thing the prophesied, or so vague as to be meaningless.

For example...
• Today’s harsh world
”In the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power.”
— 2 Timothy 3:1-5


1) Literally as wrong as it's possible to be. We're currently living in the least harsh time in human history.
2) Are you therefore claiming that the apocalypse is imminent?

”There will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another food shortages and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and from heaven great signs.”
— Luke 21:11


Hasn't happened.

“When you hear of wars and reports of wars, do not be alarmed; these things must take place, but the end is not yet.”
— Mark 13:7


Not a prophesy.

• Satan cast down to Earth in 1914, proved through World War I’s start in September 1914, around the same time Satan cast down


Erm, no? That's just entirely and completely bullshit. Mostly because Satan had supposedly already been cast down literally thousands of years earlier.

TIMELINE OF EVENTS
Jerusalem destroyed in 607BCE
Let seven times pass.
— Daniel 4:16

It was recorded in the Bible 3 1/2 times = 1260 days, so 7 times = 2520 days (1260 x 2 = 2520).


That isn't recorded anywhere. Isn't lying supposed to be a sin?

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God and where they would feed her for 1,260 days.
— Revelations 12:6

2520 years was meant, not days as... one day is one year in the Bible prophecies.


That's utter and complete bullshit that you've just made up.

According to the number of the days that you spied out the land, 40 days, a day for a year, a day for a year, you will answer for your errors 40 years, for you will know what it means to oppose me.
— Numbers 14:34

607 BCE > 1913 CE, thus Satan was hurled down to Earth in 1913-14.


Yeah, no. Mostly because your date for the destruction of Jerusalem is out. By miles. Indeed, the closest event was a decade later, and didn't involve the city being destroyed. Tell me, what, exactly, do you think happened in 1924?

The Bible is also scientifically accurate, and is proven even by just one scripture:
”There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth.”
— Isaiah 40:22, denoting the Earth is round.


Circles are flat.

Why I keep my faith despite of current suffering: People say there’s no God, or else he’d fix everything, but we know that...
The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.
— 1 John 5:19


So your god is powerless, and therefore not worthless, even if we believe his own fanfic? That's not an argument.

But there’ll be... a paradise, which strengthens my hope for the future:
With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.
— Revelation 21:3-4


Given your god's utter failure at following through on his promises so far, that doesn't seem very convincing.

Just as I have brought respect towards your opinions, please do not attack my beliefs. You can always telegram me for a question. I don’t like to check the same thread.


Calling out your lies is not an attack.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:13 am

Uan aa Boa wrote:
Alvecia wrote:That would mean reclassifying god to something not understood by what I imagine are the majority of the people who believe in him. Reducing him to a mere concept, incapable of many of the things attributed to him.
You can do so, if that's how you see him I suppose, but at that point he's as subjective as any other concept or idea.

I'm not suggesting reclassifying God as a concept, but neither is it breaking news that the Hubble telescope isn't picking up images of a cosmic man with a big beard. All I'm saying is that we can get a long way into discussing the existence of God without actually deciding what we'd expect the existence of God to entail.

I think deciding what you'd expect the existence of god to entail is kind of essential for believing in him in the first place. How can you believe in something you can't define, and how can you define something without determining what you expect from it.
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That there is no exception to the rule "There is an exception to every rule" is the exception that proves the rule.
---
Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll stop asking you to catch his fish.
That's not happening
That shouldn't be happening
Why is that happening?
That's why it's happening?
How has this ever worked?

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Uan aa Boa
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Postby Uan aa Boa » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:15 am

Salandriagado wrote:
Uan aa Boa wrote:Are you sure that claims are being made that you'd expect to be verifiable with the measures we have? Is there any more here than the observation that God would not be a physical phenomenon? People tend not to make the same criticism of human rights, for instance, despite these being invisible to every available means of detection.

"Not a physical phenomenon" is the same thing as "doesn't exist".

I do understand the appeal of that statement but it's problematic. We talk about things that aren't physical phenomena all the time and accept that true/false statements can be made about them. Mathematical objects, the 1707 Act of Union, the way strawberries taste to you, Harry Potter, justice etc etc etc all don't exist according to what you just said. Perhaps the distinction between existence and non-existence isn't hugely helpful.

This isn't intended as an argument for God, but I don't like basing criticisms on bad philosophy.

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Uan aa Boa
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Postby Uan aa Boa » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:19 am

Alvecia wrote:I think deciding what you'd expect the existence of god to entail is kind of essential for believing in him in the first place. How can you believe in something you can't define, and how can you define something without determining what you expect from it.

Many people believe in God on the basis of subjective experience which is, by definition, neither observable nor detectable. They don't appear to be uncertain about what they expect the existence of God to entail. And we all believe in things we can't define, something discussed at length ever since Plato.

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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:24 am

Uan aa Boa wrote:
Alvecia wrote:I think deciding what you'd expect the existence of god to entail is kind of essential for believing in him in the first place. How can you believe in something you can't define, and how can you define something without determining what you expect from it.

Many people believe in God on the basis of subjective experience which is, by definition, neither observable nor detectable. They don't appear to be uncertain about what they expect the existence of God to entail. And we all believe in things we can't define, something discussed at length ever since Plato.

The solution seems to simly ask those people what they expect the existence of god to entail and test that.

Depends on how you're defining define, I suppose. Most people are able to describe everything they believe, else how would they communicate to themselves or others what it is that they believe.
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That there is no exception to the rule "There is an exception to every rule" is the exception that proves the rule.
---
Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll stop asking you to catch his fish.
That's not happening
That shouldn't be happening
Why is that happening?
That's why it's happening?
How has this ever worked?

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Salandriagado
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:25 am

Uan aa Boa wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:"Not a physical phenomenon" is the same thing as "doesn't exist".

I do understand the appeal of that statement but it's problematic. We talk about things that aren't physical phenomena all the time and accept that true/false statements can be made about them. Mathematical objects,


Don't exist. Sincerely, a mathematician.

the 1707 Act of Union,


A physical object.

the way strawberries taste to you,


A physical phenomenon.

Harry Potter,


A bunch of physical objects.

justice


A pattern of physical phenomena.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Captiotia » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:27 am

Knowing the complexity of physics in our universe, as well as the many unknowns, offers no suggestion or proof of an intelligent creator, much less the personable versions brought forth in many religions. All supposed aspects of nature have so far been explained by a combination of physical laws, human psychological behavior to make sense of the world, and social enforcement of laws and beliefs.
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Uan aa Boa
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Postby Uan aa Boa » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:41 am

Salandriagado wrote:
Uan aa Boa wrote: Mathematical objects,

Don't exist. Sincerely, a mathematician.

Don't physically exist, obviously, but I'm not buying that mathematicians are misusing the ubiquitous existential quantifier. Mersenne primes do exist, the largest prime doesn't. Sincerely, another mathematician.

the 1707 Act of Union,

A physical object.

The Act, not the piece(s) of paper it's written on, unless you're up for explaining how someone's actions could legally contravene a piece of paper.

the way strawberries taste to you,

A physical phenomenon.

Really not, read Daniel Dennett.

Harry Potter,

A bunch of physical objects.

Meaning the physical substrate of the books/films? Yet it's true to say that Harry Potter is educated at Hogwarts, false to say he's educated at Eton. The physical substrate of the books/films isn't educated at Hogwarts.

justice

A pattern of physical phenomena.

I'd love to hear you elaborate on that.

It would be a serious thread derail to go too far down this, but the point is that existence means different things in different contexts. What is entailed by the existence of a physical object is different from what's entailed by the existence of a mathematical object, a literary character or event, a law, a subjective event, a different abstract concept etc etc. In the jargon, existence isn't univocal. For purposes of this thread, the question is which is the right context for looking at statements about God.

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Postby Esternial » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:48 am

ITT: A debate about semantics between mathematicians.

Abandon all hope ye who enter here.

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Uan aa Boa
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Postby Uan aa Boa » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:49 am

Esternial wrote:ITT: A debate about semantics between mathematicians.

Abandon all hope ye who enter here.

Fair point. I did say it would be a derail to pursue it further, and I don't intend to.

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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:53 am

Bluelight-R006 wrote:
I’m a Christian, and through his word, the Bible. (Which was penned down by men who got thoughts from God through dreams and visions)
Prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by Holy Spirit.
— 2 Peter 1:21

It is scientifically accurate,
All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching.
— 2 Timothy 3:16

and has fulfilled many prophecies, some recently and currently happening:
For example...
• Today’s harsh world
”In the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power.”
— 2 Timothy 3:1-5

”There will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another food shortages and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and from heaven great signs.”
— Luke 21:11

“When you hear of wars and reports of wars, do not be alarmed; these things must take place, but the end is not yet.”
— Mark 13:7

• Satan cast down to Earth in 1914, proved through World War I’s start in September 1914, around the same time Satan cast down
TIMELINE OF EVENTS
Jerusalem destroyed in 607BCE
Let seven times pass.
— Daniel 4:16

It was recorded in the Bible 3 1/2 times = 1260 days, so 7 times = 2520 days (1260 x 2 = 2520).
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God and where they would feed her for 1,260 days.
— Revelations 12:6

2520 years was meant, not days as... one day is one year in the Bible prophecies.
According to the number of the days that you spied out the land, 40 days, a day for a year, a day for a year, you will answer for your errors 40 years, for you will know what it means to oppose me.
— Numbers 14:34

607 BCE > 1913 CE, thus Satan was hurled down to Earth in 1913-14.
The Bible is also scientifically accurate, and is proven even by just one scripture:
”There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth.”
— Isaiah 40:22, denoting the Earth is round.

Why I keep my faith despite of current suffering: People say there’s no God, or else he’d fix everything, but we know that...
The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.
— 1 John 5:19

But there’ll be... a paradise, which strengthens my hope for the future:
With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.
— Revelation 21:3-4

Just as I have brought respect towards your opinions, please do not attack my beliefs. You can always telegram me for a question. I don’t like to check the same thread.

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Postby Thermodolia » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:28 am

Valrifell wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:I know this one ... nothing can come from nothing, everything has to have a beginning, uhm ... we don't know everything so it must be God. Oh, and flagellas and irreducible complexity. *nodnod*


I'd like to point out that even with God, you'd have trouble with the "first mover" problem. Like, who created God? Himself? How is that different from just accepting a universe without first motion, feels like religious folk are just adding an unnecessary step.

The idea is that god always existed and always has.
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Postby Alvecia » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:32 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Valrifell wrote:
I'd like to point out that even with God, you'd have trouble with the "first mover" problem. Like, who created God? Himself? How is that different from just accepting a universe without first motion, feels like religious folk are just adding an unnecessary step.

The idea is that god always existed and always has.

Which is weird to me.

Like, how can you fall at the hurdle of "something from nothing", but vault right over "no beginning or end".
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Postby Thermodolia » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:35 am

Panem and Circensis wrote:I don’t believe in God for the following reasons:

1. Let’s start off with the obvious: if there was an omniscient deity in the skies, we would have probably found such a person. Remember, all major religions were founded more than a thousand years before the Enlightenment and modern science. Heck, Christianity was founded 2,000 years ago. People learned washing your hands fought germs in the 19th century.

Since god “exists” outside of time itself that might be why we haven’t found a god yet.

2. In all texts, this omniscient being demands the loyalty of humanity, so that they get a reserved spot in the clouds. If not, you get sent to a place of fire and torture. Why would any god need humanity’s unconditional fealty if they are all powerful and much more altruistic than the rest of us?

Depends on the religion actually. Some religions don’t have a hell. Non-believers just don’t exist after death.

3. In all religious text, this deity is a benevolent figure. If this deity is so benevolent, then why were there so many wars, plagues, and famines. Today, there is repression, inequality both in income and in race, discrimination, murder, ignorance, disease, and bad things happening to good people. Why?

Actually that’s wrong and is coming from a primarily Christian view. In Judaism god is kinda of a dick. He’s very furious and doesn’t think twice about leveling cities because why not

4. The very definition of death revolves around it being the end of your consciousness. Ergo, the idea of an afterlife is ludicrous, because then death doesn’t really exist.

Again this is based off of the idea that all religions have an afterlife. Some don’t. Some say that there might be one but we can’t be certain
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>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
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