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LWDT VI: Kropotkin's Bread Dead Redemption.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Form of Leftism is The Best?

Left-Libertarianism
125
55%
Yes
66
29%
Left-Authoritarianism
37
16%
 
Total votes : 228

User avatar
Orostan
Senator
 
Posts: 3662
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:38 pm

Autarkheia wrote:No, I am saying Marx's predictions, though they might have been reasonable at the time, were apparently wrong.

But I don't debate with tankies, sorry.

>I refuse to acknowledge my opponents position because reasons

smug, aren't you?
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN


Sagarmatha wrote:You have a corporatist brain. "It's more faster so it's better". Profit, profit, profit my dear Neoliberal, never forget why you exist. Profit, profit, profit.

User avatar
Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 769
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:39 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:Debating with tankies is fun, though.
Nah, it's not to me. I find it very frustrating and repetitive. I would almost rather debate an ancap. Almost.
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12788
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:40 pm

Orostan wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:In practice, the terror is against anyone deemed sufficiently counterrevolutionary. There is little in the way of stopping atrocities.

North Korea is a wonderful place to live, I hear.

1) You mean people who burn grain during famines and fascists?

2) I was referencing the Soviet Union.

1. More like scientists, artists, writers, etc.
2. Yes, and I was hoping that you'd pick up on the idea that material conditions aren't enough to have a society worth living in. I'd rather be broke in the US than well-off in the USSR.
Right-Libertarian, Minarchist, Laissez-faire Capitalist, Catholic

Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 769
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:40 pm

Orostan wrote:smug, aren't you?
I'd rather be smug than a tankie.
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

User avatar
Orostan
Senator
 
Posts: 3662
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:40 pm

Autarkheia wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Debating with tankies is fun, though.
Nah, it's not to me. I find it very frustrating and repetitive. I would almost rather debate an ancap. Almost.

Is that because the same evidence and sets of statistics are presented to you each time?
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN


Sagarmatha wrote:You have a corporatist brain. "It's more faster so it's better". Profit, profit, profit my dear Neoliberal, never forget why you exist. Profit, profit, profit.

User avatar
Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 769
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:41 pm

Same denialist talking points and fudged statistics, yeah. M'caloric intake. Kulaks deserved it. Ukrainians were fascists anyway.

Boring.
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12788
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:41 pm

Autarkheia wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Debating with tankies is fun, though.
Nah, it's not to me. I find it very frustrating and repetitive. I would almost rather debate an ancap. Almost.

Join us, we have bitcoin!
Right-Libertarian, Minarchist, Laissez-faire Capitalist, Catholic

Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 769
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:42 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:Join us, we have bitcoin!
Wait, are you seriously an ancap?
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

User avatar
Pasong Tirad
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9225
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:42 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Orostan wrote:Do you mean to say that any analysis of the economy and prediction of where it might end up is impossible? Marx based his predictions for what Communism might be like on economic reality and where things were going at the time, and still are going.


Leftism is growing, but not through revolution.

Revolution is the result (sometimes) of the growth of leftism, not the cause.

User avatar
Orostan
Senator
 
Posts: 3662
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:43 pm

Autarkheia wrote:Same denialist talking points and fudged statistics, yeah. M'caloric intake. Kulaks deserved it. Ukrainians were fascists anyway.

Boring.

The statistics are far from 'fudged'. Even the CIA says that Soviet economic data is accurate. You don't seem to know much about the people you claim to have debated before.
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN


Sagarmatha wrote:You have a corporatist brain. "It's more faster so it's better". Profit, profit, profit my dear Neoliberal, never forget why you exist. Profit, profit, profit.

User avatar
Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 769
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:44 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:Leftism is growing, but not through revolution.

Revolution is the result (sometimes) of the growth of leftism, not the cause.
Socialism seems to be becoming more popular, but it's reformist, not revolutionary. I think after the shitshow that was the 20th century everyone is burnt out on revolutions for now.
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12788
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:45 pm

Autarkheia wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Join us, we have bitcoin!
Wait, are you seriously an ancap?

I'm flexible but I'm as close to an ancap as you can get with minarchy.
Right-Libertarian, Minarchist, Laissez-faire Capitalist, Catholic

Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Orostan
Senator
 
Posts: 3662
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:46 pm

Autarkheia wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:Revolution is the result (sometimes) of the growth of leftism, not the cause.
Socialism seems to be becoming more popular, but it's reformist, not revolutionary. I think after the shitshow that was the 20th century everyone is burnt out on revolutions for now.

>literacy bad
>industrial growth bad
>anti-fascism bad
>democracy bad

big brain takes for sure
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN


Sagarmatha wrote:You have a corporatist brain. "It's more faster so it's better". Profit, profit, profit my dear Neoliberal, never forget why you exist. Profit, profit, profit.

User avatar
Pasong Tirad
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9225
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:46 pm

Autarkheia wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:Revolution is the result (sometimes) of the growth of leftism, not the cause.
Socialism seems to be becoming more popular, but it's reformist, not revolutionary. I think after the shitshow that was the 20th century everyone is burnt out on revolutions for now.

There's this growing belief in Democratic Socialism, or the idea that the bourgeois mechanisms can be used to advocate for socialist policy. Not totally a fan of it (like, I wouldn't begrudge leftists who don't want to vote), but I'm not gonna say it's bad. I'm still gonna vote in our midterm elections in May, but I'm probably not gonna fill up the whole 12-person senate slate because there aren't enough leftists running in Philippine politics.

User avatar
Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 769
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:47 pm

Orostan wrote:The statistics are far from 'fudged'. Even the CIA says that Soviet economic data is accurate. You don't seem to know much about the people you claim to have debated before.
I know they are more interested in endlessly debating over failed dictatorships than a realistic future for socialism, so that's all I need. (Or supporting current ones.)
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

User avatar
Western Vale Confederacy
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9219
Founded: Nov 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:47 pm

Orostan wrote:
Autarkheia wrote:Socialism seems to be becoming more popular, but it's reformist, not revolutionary. I think after the shitshow that was the 20th century everyone is burnt out on revolutions for now.

>literacy bad
>industrial growth bad
>anti-fascism bad
>democracy bad

big brain takes for sure


>when Communists had this boner for heavy industry

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12788
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:47 pm

Orostan wrote:
Autarkheia wrote:Socialism seems to be becoming more popular, but it's reformist, not revolutionary. I think after the shitshow that was the 20th century everyone is burnt out on revolutions for now.

>literacy bad
>industrial growth bad
>anti-fascism bad
>democracy bad

big brain takes for sure

Reformist socialism is anti-literacy, anti-industry, pro-fascist, and anti-democratic?
Right-Libertarian, Minarchist, Laissez-faire Capitalist, Catholic

Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 769
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:49 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:>literacy bad
>industrial growth bad
>anti-fascism bad
>democracy bad

big brain takes for sure


>when Communists had this boner for heavy industry[/quote]>tfw you have lots of heavy industry but millions starve to death because you can't eat a factory
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

User avatar
Orostan
Senator
 
Posts: 3662
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:50 pm

Autarkheia wrote:
Orostan wrote:The statistics are far from 'fudged'. Even the CIA says that Soviet economic data is accurate. You don't seem to know much about the people you claim to have debated before.
I know they are more interested in endlessly debating over failed dictatorships than a realistic future for socialism, so that's all I need. (Or supporting current ones.)

>history is irrelevant

Any discussion about socialism brings up the USSR. That's why it's history must be defended. Perhaps if you actually talked to we tanks a little more you'd learn about books like "Towards a New Socialism" which describe, in high detail, what socialism could look like.

Northern Davincia wrote:
Orostan wrote:>literacy bad
>industrial growth bad
>anti-fascism bad
>democracy bad

big brain takes for sure

Reformist socialism is anti-literacy, anti-industry, pro-fascist, and anti-democratic?

No, I was responding to the ""shitshow" comment.
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN


Sagarmatha wrote:You have a corporatist brain. "It's more faster so it's better". Profit, profit, profit my dear Neoliberal, never forget why you exist. Profit, profit, profit.

User avatar
Orostan
Senator
 
Posts: 3662
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:50 pm

Autarkheia wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:>literacy bad
>industrial growth bad
>anti-fascism bad
>democracy bad

big brain takes for sure


>when Communists had this boner for heavy industry
>tfw you have lots of heavy industry but millions starve to death because you can't eat a factory[/quote]
You know even less about soviet history than i thought. The 1932 famine happened when the majority of agriculture was not collectivized and when the USSR was only early in its industrialization.
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN


Sagarmatha wrote:You have a corporatist brain. "It's more faster so it's better". Profit, profit, profit my dear Neoliberal, never forget why you exist. Profit, profit, profit.

User avatar
Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 769
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:51 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Orostan wrote:>literacy bad
>industrial growth bad
>anti-fascism bad
>democracy bad

big brain takes for sure

Reformist socialism is anti-literacy, anti-industry, pro-fascist, and anti-democratic?
When Marxism does good things, they could only have been achieved by Marxism. When Marxism does bad things, they either never happened, or the victims were fascist. When other ideologies do bad things, it's proof of the superiority of Marxism. When they do good things, it's just a stopgap which cannot prevent the coming WORLD REVOLUTION
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

User avatar
Lamoni
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 6849
Founded: Antiquity
Democratic Socialists

Postby Lamoni » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:51 pm

Orostan wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:"We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror."
Marxists do not deny the likelihood of atrocities, they just view their tyranny as preferable, and then act surprised when Maoists and Stalinists send them to the gulag.

>hurr durr i cannot read

I am not surprised that you cannot ask "Terror against who?" or "Terror for what?"

The point Marx makes in that quote is that every revolution has revolutionary terror. The question is who that terror is directed at and why.

Autarkheia wrote:Fucking kulaks.
"Why does Marxism always result in mass murder and dictatorship? Must be the capitalists. Oh, btw it never happened."

"Marxism always results"

You have no idea what you are talking about. Marxism is a method of historical analysis and analysis of Capitalism. Socialism is the word you want to use, and you are wrong anyways. I suggest you read a little bit of Marx before talking about Marxism or Socialism like you understand it completely.


You can make your point without the "you lack reading comprehension" jab. iLoom.
National Anthem
Resides in Greater Dienstad. (Former) Mayor of Equilism.
I'm a Senior N&I RP Mentor. Questions? TG me!
Licana on the M-21A2 MBT: "Well, it is one of the most badass tanks on NS."


Vortiaganica: Lamoni I understand fully, of course. The two (Lamoni & Lyras) are more inseparable than the Clinton family and politics.


Triplebaconation: Lamoni commands a quiet respect that carries its own authority. He is the Mandela of NS.

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User avatar
Northern Davincia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12788
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:53 pm

Orostan wrote:No, I was responding to the ""shitshow" comment.

Reformist socialism can achieve anything the USSR did without obscene casualty rates and totalitarianism, however.
Last edited by Northern Davincia on Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Right-Libertarian, Minarchist, Laissez-faire Capitalist, Catholic

Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Orostan
Senator
 
Posts: 3662
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:54 pm

Autarkheia wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Reformist socialism is anti-literacy, anti-industry, pro-fascist, and anti-democratic?
When Marxism does good things, they could only have been achieved by Marxism. When Marxism does bad things, they either never happened, or the victims were fascist. When other ideologies do bad things, it's proof of the superiority of Marxism. When they do good things, it's just a stopgap which cannot prevent the coming WORLD REVOLUTION

Can you stop pretending like you know everything? I get tired of these debates fast because right wingers seem to believe themselves to know everything. You really don't understand what Marxism is or what Socialism is. You don't seem to want to. You should read a book, or just keep posting bad takes on the internet.
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN


Sagarmatha wrote:You have a corporatist brain. "It's more faster so it's better". Profit, profit, profit my dear Neoliberal, never forget why you exist. Profit, profit, profit.

User avatar
Pasong Tirad
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9225
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:55 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Orostan wrote:No, I was responding to the ""shitshow" comment.

Reformist socialism can achieve anything the USSR did without obscene casualty rates and totalitarianism, however.

The problem here being that a large portion of the left doesn't believe that the bourgeois mechanisms for democracy are capable of achieving a proper path towards reforming their capitalist economies into more socialist ones, which is part of the reason why many on the left reject participating in elections outright (or at least doing so very selectively).

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