Ah, yes. That is the point that we are making, no?
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by Former Citizens of the Nimbus System » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:38 pm
by VoVoDoCo » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:02 pm
United New England wrote:There’s an important difference between the social liberties (Civil Rights and Political Freedom) and the Economic Freedom stat. The social liberties are based on protecting the ordinary citizen or “little guy”. Economic Freedom, on the other hand, is often a measure of how much the rich are allowed to ride roughshod over the poor. In other words, it’s more or less the moral opposite of the social liberties. Giving it the same kind of red-to-green ranking system would, therefore, make little sense.
by VoVoDoCo » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:06 pm
by Ghost Land » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:12 pm
Merconitonitopia wrote:Techgrade wrote:yeah, I prefer the 2nd option and I reckon that would work the best.
What If we had: the region above the influence marker in the left hand corner, and the economy on the right, and civil, political, and economic freedoms in the middle?
Not a bad idea.
I decided to give 'Economy' it's own little section. Not absolutely necessary but it seemed right seeing as it was cut off from the section that it was already a part of and would have looked rather out of place on its own.
Moreover, I'm somewhat prejudiced against the 'Economy' stat, as its not very descriptive given we now have real data on GDP, income, industries, etc. and because it sometimes runs contrary to these. So, I figured being a bit more informative wouldn't hurt!
edit: region should probably be above influence really
Merconitonitopia wrote:Alright then. Where would it go on the page?
That's the main problem I'm having with this. We can't put it next to the other three, because there isn't enough space, and it would look much to cluttered.
Moreover, it would make the Economy indicator seem out of place. One non-freedom-related indicator just sort of shoehorned in there next to three freedom indicators.
Where else could we put it?
Edit: Then again, this doesn't look too terrible.
(Image)
by Candlewhisper Archive » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:30 am
by Former Citizens of the Nimbus System » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:23 am
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:I like the idea of Economic Freedom replacing strength in those three featured stats. However, if such a change were to take place I think it'd also be good to change the colour-coding, from red-green to colours with fewer value judgement implications. After all, it'd be unfair to planned economy nations for them to be flagged as "red" if they consider restriction of economic freedom to be a positive thing, and the source of their strong economy.
Dunno what colours though. I mean, for us in the UK, blue is the colour of right wing economic laissez-faire approaches, and red the colour of socialist big government, but I understand that in the US, blue means liberal and left wing, and red means conservative and right wing. Likewise, other colours have different meanings too,
by Trotterdam » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:45 am
...Communists use red all the time?Candlewhisper Archive wrote:I like the idea of Economic Freedom replacing strength in those three featured stats. However, if such a change were to take place I think it'd also be good to change the colour-coding, from red-green to colours with fewer value judgement implications. After all, it'd be unfair to planned economy nations for them to be flagged as "red" if they consider restriction of economic freedom to be a positive thing, and the source of their strong economy.
I think that's due to focussing more on the parties' different stances on civil rather than economic rights, though, so red still corresponds to less freedom here. The US is pretty capitalist overall, so even the liberals are only relatively-left-wing compared to the opposition, not anywhere near true socialist.Candlewhisper Archive wrote:but I understand that in the US, blue means liberal and left wing, and red means conservative and right wing
Personally, if I had to pick any color to associate with the concept of "freedom", irrespective of what kind of freedom is being talked about or whether it's actually a good thing, I'd go with sky-blue.Former Citizens of the Nimbus System wrote:That's a good point... That would have to be balanced, of course, with preserving the ability to derive meaning from those colours. Something like a purple to yellow scale, for example, might be hard to interpret precisely because we (speaking from a Western cultural bias) don't assign such values to them. The traffic light-type connotations that the green to amber to red spectrum has does convey restriction to lack of restriction nicely, even with its undesirable moral elements.
It's a hard circle to square, that's for sure. I personally wouldn't let it get in the way of the larger issue but I'd also very much welcome anyone who has suggestions.
by Former Citizens of the Nimbus System » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:50 am
Trotterdam wrote:Personally, if I had to pick any color to associate with the concept of "freedom", irrespective of what kind of freedom is being talked about or whether it's actually a good thing, I'd go with sky-blue.Former Citizens of the Nimbus System wrote:That's a good point... That would have to be balanced, of course, with preserving the ability to derive meaning from those colours. Something like a purple to yellow scale, for example, might be hard to interpret precisely because we (speaking from a Western cultural bias) don't assign such values to them. The traffic light-type connotations that the green to amber to red spectrum has does convey restriction to lack of restriction nicely, even with its undesirable moral elements.
It's a hard circle to square, that's for sure. I personally wouldn't let it get in the way of the larger issue but I'd also very much welcome anyone who has suggestions.
Not so sure what corresponding color would represent restriction. The red-green scale doesn't simply have inverted RGB values on opposite ends.
by Candlewhisper Archive » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:04 am
by Aclion » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:09 am
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:I like the idea of Economic Freedom replacing strength in those three featured stats. However, if such a change were to take place I think it'd also be good to change the colour-coding, from red-green to colours with fewer value judgement implications. After all, it'd be unfair to planned economy nations for them to be flagged as "red" if they consider restriction of economic freedom to be a positive thing, and the source of their strong economy.
Dunno what colours though. I mean, for us in the UK, blue is the colour of right wing economic laissez-faire approaches, and red the colour of socialist big government, but I understand that in the US, blue means liberal and left wing, and red means conservative and right wing. Likewise, other colours have different meanings too,
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Probably not something that'll happen anyway, replacing Economy with Economic Freedom. I had a discussion in the past about it with the powers-that-be, and I think (I am paraphrasing from memory of course) that it is design intent that you can do "well" in Economy while adopting an approach that is pro- or against- economic freedom.
To me that's not a good design choice OR a bad design choice, it's just a design choice. And that basically is up to the game designer.
I definitely see there's pros and cons to changing that design choice, but I think that in the absence of an obvious superiority to change, the momentum of status quo will prove stronger. There's basically bigger fish to fry.
by Candlewhisper Archive » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:18 am
by Trotterdam » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:43 am
The ability to do well in Economy has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not how well you are doing is displayed in that particular spot.Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Probably not something that'll happen anyway, replacing Economy with Economic Freedom. I had a discussion in the past about it with the powers-that-be, and I think (I am paraphrasing from memory of course) that it is design intent that you can do "well" in Economy while adopting an approach that is pro- or against- economic freedom.
by Former Citizens of the Nimbus System » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:17 am
by Aclion » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:23 pm
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Eh, they're not hostile people, generally.
Me, on the other hand, I'm positively cantankerous.
by Ghost Land » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:25 pm
by Trotterdam » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:18 pm
Internally, it's really on a 0-100 scale. However, nations which have banned private enterprise receive an artificial -100 for sorting purposes, which is ignored for all internal calculations.Ghost Land wrote:Tangentially related, I've always wondered why economic freedom is on a -100 to +100 scale, unlike the other two, which are on a 0-100 scale.
That's the smooshing I mentioned above.Ghost Land wrote:Also, let's revise the government type coding so that the scale is more evenly distributed between low, medium, and high:
0-33.33: Low
33.34-66.66: Medium
66.67-100: High
For example, looking at page 4800 of the political freedom rankings, a political freedom value of 72/100 is still considered medium (how?), though a political freedom value of 72.1 is high, as can be seen by going back ten pages, which means the "high" category of political freedom only encompasses 28% of the scale.
by Merconitonitopia » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:15 pm
Trotterdam wrote:Really I think the entire Economy stat is something of an obsolete legacy. It's unclear what it really represents, and we now have more concrete stats, particularly Economic Output / Average Income, to display how well your economy is doing. (The highest Economy stat doesn't always translate to the highest Economic Output stat or vice versa, and I have little idea what a high Economy stat does mean.)
by VoVoDoCo » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:29 pm
There are two ways to look this:Candlewhisper Archive wrote:However, if such a change were to take place I think it'd also be good to change the colour-coding, from red-green to colours with fewer value judgement implications.
With that logic, it's also "unfair" to nations that hold conservative views on gay marriage, homosexuality, the right to protest, and elections that their respective beliefs are shown in red (which can be interpreted as "bad"). Why not rewrite the whole system?Candlewhisper Archive wrote:After all, it'd be unfair to planned economy nations for them to be flagged as "red" if they consider restriction of economic freedom to be a positive thing, and the source of their strong economy.
I couldn't have said it better myself. Red could refer to the Republican party in the US or Communism, both have polar opposite economic positions. The current color system is fine because changing it would cost time and ultimately end up insulting some other group of people.Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Dunno what colours though. I mean, for us in the UK, blue is the colour of right wing economic laissez-faire approaches, and red the colour of socialist big government, but I understand that in the US, blue means liberal and left wing, and red means conservative and right wing. Likewise, other colours have different meanings too,
by Trotterdam » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:09 pm
by VoVoDoCo » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:37 pm
by Aclion » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:33 am
by Stoklomolvi » Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:21 pm
by Ghost Land » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:11 pm
Stoklomolvi wrote:Maybe at the 0 mark, the colours flip? So, at 0, the stat can be named economic freedom, but the colour would basically be grey. From 0 to 100, the stat would go from grey to green and be titled "Economic Freedom". From 0 to -100, the stat could be called "Economic Planning" or something. That'd be if the colour "green" is a concern.
Another colour scheme could range from blue to green, where blue is high economic freedom, and green is high economic planning, or vice versa. I personally think that the economic freedom stat is pretty pointless. Maybe we ought to replace the economic stat with a per capita income sort of thing, e.g. economic output divided by population or "Highest Average Income" or "HDI" or something.
by VoVoDoCo » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:17 pm
Stoklomolvi wrote:Maybe at the 0 mark, the colours flip? So, at 0, the stat can be named economic freedom, but the colour would basically be grey. From 0 to 100, the stat would go from grey to green and be titled "Economic Freedom". From 0 to -100, the stat could be called "Economic Planning" or something. That'd be if the colour "green" is a concern.
Another colour scheme could range from blue to green, where blue is high economic freedom, and green is high economic planning, or vice versa. I personally think that the economic freedom stat is pretty pointless. Maybe we ought to replace the economic stat with a per capita income sort of thing, e.g. economic output divided by population or "Highest Average Income" or "HDI" or something.
by VoVoDoCo » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:18 pm
Ghost Land wrote:For the record, I see nothing wrong with the green-red colour scheme, and without meaning to sound like an old man yelling at a cloud, those colours didn't always use to be there, being added as part of the Rift theme in 2015.
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