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Imperializt Russia
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Corporate Police State

Postby Imperializt Russia » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:11 am

The Liamese Empire wrote:I think it is absolutely absurd how everyone in this thread is acting as if just because these things are legal, it means that every business is immediately going to do this. That's absolutely absurd. If the people have a moral outcry to what a business does, they will condemn it or stop working for it which will lower profits. All this bill does is increase the ability for the invisible hand to be able to do what it must and in the end will help the national economy by allowing businesses to have more free will.

None of this actually happens in reality, because of the inevitable intertwining nature of supersized corporations and industrial concerns, and the state apparatus.
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Costa Fierro
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Costa Fierro » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:00 am

Trumptonium1 wrote:Minimum compensation does not exist in Switzerland


And yet everything else says it does. As I said in my post, collective bargaining agreements have clauses on minimum compensation. Don't argue against it.
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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:34 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:
The Liamese Empire wrote:I think it is absolutely absurd how everyone in this thread is acting as if just because these things are legal, it means that every business is immediately going to do this. That's absolutely absurd. If the people have a moral outcry to what a business does, they will condemn it or stop working for it which will lower profits. All this bill does is increase the ability for the invisible hand to be able to do what it must and in the end will help the national economy by allowing businesses to have more free will.

None of this actually happens in reality, because of the inevitable intertwining nature of supersized corporations and industrial concerns, and the state apparatus.


Which is why I don't get my overtime pay with my next paycheck... oh wait, I do...
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:42 am

Risottia wrote:https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46551904

Tl;dr , Orban's majority is about to allow Hungarian companies to demand their workers to work an extra 50-day's worth per year, while being allowed to withhold extra time wages for up to three years.

That, of course, flies right into the face of Orban's supporters at home and abroad, who use to claim the V4's ultra-right leader is all about defending the European masses impoverished by the evil liberal-jewish-masonic-commie-eurocrat-muslim conspiracy and similar populist bullshit.

As I post, riot is erupting around and inside the Budapest parliament, according to the notoriously liberal-jewish-etc fake-news propaganda outlet called BBC.

Do you guess this at least is going to open the eyes of the Hungarian voters about Orban and his coalition, or will they continue to vote for the guy who forces them to work two extra months for free because he's all oh-so-tough against those pesky unChristian refugees?


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Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Imperialisium
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Postby Imperialisium » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:27 am

Funny how only leftist news sources are calling it slave labor. When it is not by definition or reality.
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Duhon
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:18 am

Imperialisium wrote:Funny how only leftist news sources are calling it slave labor. When it is not by definition or reality.


It's not, but three years of unpaid overtime, whether or not under duress, is not what either I or Soros would call kosher.

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Imperialisium
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Imperialisium » Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:33 am

Duhon wrote:
Imperialisium wrote:Funny how only leftist news sources are calling it slave labor. When it is not by definition or reality.


It's not, but three years of unpaid overtime, whether or not under duress, is not what either I or Soros would call kosher.


My dislike of Soros aside, and living partially in Nograd country, that the leftist media has blown it way out of proportion. I like to thing myself more middle spectrum when it comes to politics but the media (like they typically do) has definitely blown this up way more than it really is.
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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:37 am

Imperialisium wrote:
Duhon wrote:
It's not, but three years of unpaid overtime, whether or not under duress, is not what either I or Soros would call kosher.


My dislike of Soros aside, and living partially in Nograd country, that the leftist media has blown it way out of proportion. I like to thing myself more middle spectrum when it comes to politics but the media (like they typically do) has definitely blown this up way more than it really is.


Well, that kinda depends. If it truly is voluntary (and not the "put a gun to your head voluntary" as some people use the word), if it does not happen often, if it is untrue that all forms of leave are substracted from the owed overtime etc. - agreed.
Last edited by The Alma Mater on Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Imperializt Russia
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Corporate Police State

Postby Imperializt Russia » Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:47 am

Telconi wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:None of this actually happens in reality, because of the inevitable intertwining nature of supersized corporations and industrial concerns, and the state apparatus.


Which is why I don't get my overtime pay with my next paycheck... oh wait, I do...

I don't think this actually follows from my statement.

I'm criticising the "vote with your wallet" meme.
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Duhon
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Postby Duhon » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:04 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Imperialisium wrote:
My dislike of Soros aside, and living partially in Nograd country, that the leftist media has blown it way out of proportion. I like to thing myself more middle spectrum when it comes to politics but the media (like they typically do) has definitely blown this up way more than it really is.


Well, that kinda depends. If it truly is voluntary (and not the "put a gun to your head voluntary" as some people use the word), if it does not happen often, if it is untrue that all forms of leave are substracted from the owed overtime etc. - agreed.


Unless it's a Magyar byway for employers to defer payment and for employees to wait for the interminable in unaccountable stoicism, I am going to view this proposed state of affairs as abnormal and prone to abuse.

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Imperialisium
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Imperialisium » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:25 am

Duhon wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:
Well, that kinda depends. If it truly is voluntary (and not the "put a gun to your head voluntary" as some people use the word), if it does not happen often, if it is untrue that all forms of leave are substracted from the owed overtime etc. - agreed.


Unless it's a Magyar byway for employers to defer payment and for employees to wait for the interminable in unaccountable stoicism, I am going to view this proposed state of affairs as abnormal and prone to abuse.


The law basically increases the allowed amount of hours a person can legally work. Now, the employer still has to pay 1.5 the regular salary of a worker for the overtime. The only difference that this law would feasibly do is if you exceed 250 hours of overtime, from that 251st hour on wards, your employer can defer overtime payment (not regular pay, they cannot have you legally work for free, that breaks fundamental laws in Hungary; in addition if they do not pay you in three years time regardless of no longer working for the company they still have to legally cut you a cheque in back wages) for up to three years.

I hope this helps for any non-Hungarian here trying to grasp how it impacts already established Hungarian law.
Last edited by Imperialisium on Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:28 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Mutz
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Mutz » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:04 am

Trumptonium1 wrote:
Costa Fierro wrote:
The cantons of Jura and Neutchatel have minimum wages. In addition, collective bargaining agreements contain clauses on minimum compensation. A similar setup exists in neighbouring Austria, where collective bargaining agreements ensure a minimum amount is compensated. Occupations that lack a collective bargaining agreement have minimum compensation outlined in specific legislation.

So not exactly the bastion of free-market capitalism you were expecting.


Minimum compensation does not exist in Switzerland, and Jura and Neutchatel make up less than 5% of Swiss population. Collective bargaining agreements do exist, but most industries do not have such Gesamtarbeitsvertrag agreements, and there is absolutely no legislation whatsoever to ensure a minimum compensation for those. Although this isn't very relevant since those who do have bargaining agreements are typically lower-earning roles, however, neither the financial industry nor the doctor profession is governed by any GVA. There's nothing stopping UBS/Credit Suisse employing people for $1000 a year to be investment bankers or a hospital employing a doctor from Zimbabwe while paying him his wage simply converted to CFA. But they're not stupid and they won't do it.

That puts us back to the same question. The reason why any employer would withhold overtime payments for three years in Hungary is the same reason why a Swiss bank would employ a financial planner on $5000 and why Donald Trump can nuke Beijing at will tomorrow night. It's an option. It's highly unlikely to be used. And in the case of the former two, nearly everybody will be able to switch employer anyway, or at least have the relatively luxurious position of being able to deny a job offer while you search for better ones because you heard the employer is bad or the wage is bad, as neither Hungarian or Swiss workers live paycheque to paycheque unlike the US.

In order to hopefully answer and end this thread deviation: Your assertions regarding Switzerland are pretty badly misinformed.
Out of a resident population of ca. 8.4 million people (children and over 1.5 million retirees included) the jobs of over 2 million people are protected by GAVs.

Your assertion that "most industries" (whatever that means in real terms) don't have GAVs is baseless.
Here's a list of different industries with GAVs where only one union, the UNIA, is involved
-> https://www.unia.ch/de/arbeitswelt/von- ... vertraege/

Here's a GAV for the employees of the banking sector btw -> https://gav.arbeitsrechtler.ch/Banken_V ... _A2011.pdf which, according to you, shouldn't exist.

Or here's one for the health sector, including the "doctor profession" i.e. medical staff including medical doctors, from assistent doctor up to the top. -> https://vsao-bern.ch/de/themen/gesamtar ... -gav-2018/

In addition to that, the cantons and the federal state are empowered and responsible for ensuring safe and fair working conditions, which includes issuing NAVs (Normalarbeitsverträge). Those are binding contracts quite similar to GAVs and covering entire branches of the economy and certain types of employment, with 99 of those in force nationwide in 2016, including 76 with binding minimum wages. -> All from the official sources of the federal department of statistics.

So yeah, not really your envisioned libertarian paradise and certainly far better off than Hungary. Please do keep us in CH out of it or, at the very least, make a minimal effort to inform yourself beforehand.

Edit: Oh and Ticino has also minimum wage laws btw.
Last edited by Mutz on Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:10 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Trumptonium1
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Ex-Nation

Postby Trumptonium1 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:30 am

Costa Fierro wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:Minimum compensation does not exist in Switzerland


And yet everything else says it does. As I said in my post, collective bargaining agreements have clauses on minimum compensation. Don't argue against it.


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Trumptonium1
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Postby Trumptonium1 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:31 am

Mutz wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:
Minimum compensation does not exist in Switzerland, and Jura and Neutchatel make up less than 5% of Swiss population. Collective bargaining agreements do exist, but most industries do not have such Gesamtarbeitsvertrag agreements, and there is absolutely no legislation whatsoever to ensure a minimum compensation for those. Although this isn't very relevant since those who do have bargaining agreements are typically lower-earning roles, however, neither the financial industry nor the doctor profession is governed by any GVA. There's nothing stopping UBS/Credit Suisse employing people for $1000 a year to be investment bankers or a hospital employing a doctor from Zimbabwe while paying him his wage simply converted to CFA. But they're not stupid and they won't do it.

That puts us back to the same question. The reason why any employer would withhold overtime payments for three years in Hungary is the same reason why a Swiss bank would employ a financial planner on $5000 and why Donald Trump can nuke Beijing at will tomorrow night. It's an option. It's highly unlikely to be used. And in the case of the former two, nearly everybody will be able to switch employer anyway, or at least have the relatively luxurious position of being able to deny a job offer while you search for better ones because you heard the employer is bad or the wage is bad, as neither Hungarian or Swiss workers live paycheque to paycheque unlike the US.

In order to hopefully answer and end this thread deviation: Your assertions regarding Switzerland are pretty badly misinformed.
Out of a resident population of ca. 8.4 million people (children and over 1.5 million retirees included) the jobs of over 2 million people are protected by GAVs.

Your assertion that "most industries" (whatever that means in real terms) don't have GAVs is baseless.
Here's a list of different industries with GAVs where only one union, the UNIA, is involved
-> https://www.unia.ch/de/arbeitswelt/von- ... vertraege/

Here's a GAV for the employees of the banking sector btw -> https://gav.arbeitsrechtler.ch/Banken_V ... _A2011.pdf which, according to you, shouldn't exist.

Or here's one for the health sector, including the "doctor profession" i.e. medical staff including medical doctors, from assistent doctor up to the top. -> https://vsao-bern.ch/de/themen/gesamtar ... -gav-2018/

In addition to that, the cantons and the federal state are empowered and responsible for ensuring safe and fair working conditions, which includes issuing NAVs (Normalarbeitsverträge). Those are binding contracts quite similar to GAVs and covering entire branches of the economy and certain types of employment, with 99 of those in force nationwide in 2016, including 76 with binding minimum wages. -> All from the official sources of the federal department of statistics.

So yeah, not really your envisioned libertarian paradise and certainly far better off than Hungary. Please do keep us in CH out of it or, at the very least, make a minimal effort to inform yourself beforehand.

Edit: Oh and Ticino has also minimum wage laws btw.


thank you for confirming what i said
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Sufokia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Sufokia » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:34 am

Risottia wrote:https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46551904

Tl;dr , Orban's majority is about to allow Hungarian companies to demand their workers to work an extra 50-day's worth per year, while being allowed to withhold extra time wages for up to three years.

That, of course, flies right into the face of Orban's supporters at home and abroad, who use to claim the V4's ultra-right leader is all about defending the European masses impoverished by the evil liberal-jewish-masonic-commie-eurocrat-muslim conspiracy and similar populist bullshit.

As I post, riot is erupting around and inside the Budapest parliament, according to the notoriously liberal-jewish-etc fake-news propaganda outlet called BBC.

Do you guess this at least is going to open the eyes of the Hungarian voters about Orban and his coalition, or will they continue to vote for the guy who forces them to work two extra months for free because he's all oh-so-tough against those pesky unChristian refugees?


So he wants domestic slave labor instead of foreign.

Wow, what a brave patriot for Hungary. :roll:
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Iwassoclose
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Postby Iwassoclose » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:39 am

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Lethen Empire
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Postby Lethen Empire » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:49 am

OP tried. And of course, the entire first page is people immediately believing what he said. There was even an actual SJW account (I only say SJW because I'm not aware of any formal terms)...

If I had a proper reason to believe this was actually the way the OP portrayed it, I would, but I'm seeing a lot of proof that is is quite opposite. Aside from the withholding extra time wages, that's a little crummy. But then that means this is a pretty minor problem in actuality.
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Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:51 am

Lethen Empire wrote:OP tried. And of course, the entire first page is people immediately believing what he said. There was even an actual SJW account (I only say SJW because I'm not aware of any formal terms)...

If I had a proper reason to believe this was actually the way the OP portrayed it, I would, but I'm seeing a lot of proof that is is quite opposite. Aside from the withholding extra time wages, that's a little crummy. But then that means this is a pretty minor problem in actuality.


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Aellex
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Postby Aellex » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:53 am

That's quite fucking disgusting tbh and shouldn't be allowed.
Withholding payment like that, up to three fucking year no less, would be a thievery even if interests due to not only the raises of the worker's paycheck but just time itself were indexed but it appears such isn't even case.

In that case, Orban actually deserves the shit he's getting for once.
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Purgatio
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Postby Purgatio » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:53 am

Last I checked, slave labour means compulsory/mandatory labour, ie you are being forced to work against your voluntary will. I don't see anything in this proposal that suggests the introduction of forced labour, workers who don't like the conditions being suggested can simply not take the job in the first place. What's the big deal.
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Sufokia
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Postby Sufokia » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:55 am

Purgatio wrote:Last I checked, slave labour means compulsory/mandatory labour, ie you are being forced to work against your voluntary will. I don't see anything in this proposal that suggests the introduction of forced labour, workers who don't like the conditions being suggested can simply not take the job in the first place. What's the big deal.

Why even allow such labor conditions if he cares about the people of Hungary?
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Mardla
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Postby Mardla » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:52 am

But will they pay interest? Nope, but the financiers will be happy to charge it on any advances workers need to borrow. Capitalists got the game rigged real nice.
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Mardla
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Postby Mardla » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:55 am

Lethen Empire wrote:OP tried. And of course, the entire first page is people immediately believing what he said. There was even an actual SJW account (I only say SJW because I'm not aware of any formal terms)...

If I had a proper reason to believe this was actually the way the OP portrayed it, I would, but I'm seeing a lot of proof that is is quite opposite. Aside from the withholding extra time wages, that's a little crummy. But then that means this is a pretty minor problem in actuality.

What he is doing makes sense in capitalist terms: growth requires investment, and since foreign investment might not be forthcoming, he is essentially compelling labor to invest (socialism is this on steroids).
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Postby Hurdergaryp » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:42 pm

The Grims wrote:What happens if the company goes bankrupt a year or so after your overtime ? Are the backwages lost ?

And what if you switch employers in the 3 year period ?

It is only fair to assume that you are fucked in those cases, because the very idea of those toiling in the shadows of the indomitable "job creators" actually having rights is probably considered HARDCORE ULTRA-STALINISM in the eyes of Orban and his corrupt clique.

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Postby Kaggeceria » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:48 pm

Didn't we already have this thread? And wasn't it already made clear that the extra hours are not even mandatory?

Good fucking grief.
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