Beef is again being served

[Milozoldyck]

Souls apparently wishes to use a quote of mine as anti-NPO propaganda, so I'm going to beat him to the punch and just post the whole log.

I stand by everything I said and am prepared to defend my position. Bring it on....or don't, because I honestly don't wish to spend much time arguing about the NPO with people who aren't going to have their minds changed about the NPO.

Souls Today at 4:18 AM
Becuase, while I have to get to bed (exam in 5 hours), I know for a fact that most of what Perg has to say about his interactions Block, and much of what ED has had to say about TP and block, can be outright proven wrong.

And Cormac or someone might help before I’m back online

Milo Zoldyck Today at 4:18 AM
Then please do prove it wrong.

Spikes Today at 4:18 AM
We have
I have at least two forum posts on it Comment: Where? I'd genuinely like to read them. I would've asked then and there if I'd known I'd get really dragged into this. Forgive me if I don't read this entire forum, most of it is nonsense.

Milo ZoldyckToday at 4:18 AM
Make a thread in the GP forum.

SpikesToday at 4:18 AM
They’re in threads in GP At this point, it should be pretty obvious how aware of the situation I am. Which is to say ... not very. I invite someone to enlighten me in this thread. I invite Cormac or Souls specifically to do so.

Milo Zoldyck Today at 4:18 AM
Or, maybe even better yet, on the TP forum.So that it's seen.

SpikesToday at 4:19 AM

Pretty sure I’m not welcome there. We’re at war and all

Milo ZoldyckToday at 4:19 AM
Have you asked?

SpikesToday at 4:19 AM
If EF was concerned with the truth, he’d be spreading it and correcting it, not spreading lies that accept the absolute bare minimum of responsibility
ED*

SpikesToday at 4:20 AM
Lol

Milo ZoldyckToday at 4:20 AM
ED is not concerned with the truth. ED is concerned with the future. Comment: Is that a bad quote? In my opinion, no. I think LoD is concerned with ensuring that there isn't any future subversion ... not debating with the peanut gallery about a permanently banned member of The Pacific.

I suspect scrutinizing Pergamon's past actions doesn't matter to LoD, as Pergamon has no future in The Pacific. LoD is focused on the future. That's what I meant.]

YEET of CultureToday at 4:20 AM
ED....lol

Milo ZoldyckToday at 4:20 AM
At least, as I understand it. Which brings me back to my original point: That talk means nothing. Comment: Because it doesn't. You're not going to be happy either way.

SpikesToday at 4:20 AM
Well, thanks for confirming that ED isn’t being honest in his interactions, and just cares about The pacific recovering it’s position and relations and power. Comment: I said "the future," meaning "not subverting other GCR's." Souls took it as "recovering it's position and relations and power." He thinks I got caught slipping out something I didn't mean to say, but I meant exactly what I said. I did not mean what he says I said.

SpikesToday at 4:21 AM
“ED is not concerned with the truth. ED is concerned with the future.”

Milo ZoldyckToday at 4:21 AM
You extrapolated that entire sentiment. :shrug: That is not what I'm saying.

SpikesToday at 4:21 AM
Quotable

Milo ZoldyckToday at 4:21 AM
Well, yes.

SpikesToday at 4:21 AM
Goodnight now

Milo ZoldyckToday at 4:21 AM
The truth doesn't matter. I really believe that. Pergamon is no longer welcomed in The Pacific and will never be back. How do we know he won't be back? We don't.

That's what I mean by "the truth doesn't matter." It doesn't matter. If the truth is that Perg will never be back, no one will believe it. Everyone knows this same song and dance has happened before. I, if anyone, would know, because most of this war actually traces back to being my fault. If the truth is that he doesn't come back ... then it's a moot issue.

YEET of CultureToday at 4:21 AM
milo what region did u get cabal in

Milo ZoldyckToday at 4:21 AM
Because the truth is that the past was wrong. The future is a blank slate.
If you're going to quote me on that, @Spikes , I fully expect you to quote the entire thing. Or else you and I are gonna have a problem.
Which I would hate to see, because personally, I'm not involved the NPO-TBH War, and consider us lads. Don't drag my name through the mud by taking me out of context.

YEET of CultureToday at 4:22 AM
I mean its a bad quote to say Milo...
couldve worded better I'll be more careful next time. Now I know.

SpikesToday at 4:22 AM
What, you mean include the bit two lines up where you realize after I point it out how bad the soubdbyte looks and add a line to clean it up?
Lol

Milo ZoldyckToday at 4:22 AM
Yeah.
I do mean that.

SpikesToday at 4:23 AM
Pfft.

Milo ZoldyckToday at 4:23 AM
You know why? Because I'm just a regular player, chilling on Discord at 4:20am (Comment: FYI: Comrade Milograd smokes grass.), chatting with you about questions you're asking me.
I'm not a representative of The Pacific, I'm commentating and talking to you as a pal. And it'd be a dick move to hold me to the standard of an FA representative. You know full well that I express myself loosely on Discord. Comment: I overestimated his familiarity with me. He's a prominent player and I swear we've chatted over the years. I lurk in TBH's Discord and stop by to chat up Bri and co. For grouping Souls into that, I am completely at fault.

SpikesToday at 4:24 AM
You’re defending the pacific, as a former prominent member ;P no, you’re not an active official, but you’ve got an insider’s perspective
And you’re spending honestly Except for when I clarify my intention because you intend to use my words as propaganda, of course. Then my clarifications are lies.
At least somewhat so

Milo ZoldyckToday at 4:24 AM
If I had a formal obligation to speak for TP, I'd be a lot more thorough. Yes, and ultimately I don't think what I'm saying harms TP, because it's all true. ULTIMATELY I have been lazy in my wording because I am a lazy person and believed we were having a conversation where that was something I could do.

If you want to have a hardass conversation with me about TP, where I need to scrutinize every word I say to make sure it's not quotable, then I can do that too. :|

YEET of CultureToday at 4:25 AM
Milo you have to know how PR works by now...doesn't matter if you said it crossed as fuck...they're gonna use it Comment: I don't know who this guy is, but I'm leaving his comments in because they're demonstrative of the crap about GP that disappoints me, and that I'm currently attempting to rise above.

Milo ZoldyckToday at 4:25 AM
I'd like to believe Souls is better than that.
We've known each other for years. I was wrong
That's a basic assumption in how I communicate on here.

YEET of CultureToday at 4:26 AM
the fact that you didnt think it over and just went off the top of your head just shows its more true and open then it would be if planned out Comment: I'm still not sure who this guy is. And I'm a huge dick, so I'm not going to bother finding out. It's probably not worth it.

Milo ZoldyckToday at 4:26 AM
Nope.

SpikesToday at 4:26 AM
Yes. We should all know ED doesn’t care about being honest, and only cares about the future of the Pacific. It’s what people like Cormac and I have been trying to tell everyone. His sweet words are designed precisely to clean things up while admitting as little fault as possible. Some people are taking them as truth nonetheless. Your comments along the same lines as an “expert” on the matter may give some new consideration :wink:

Milo ZoldyckToday at 4:26 AM
I'm Milo. I do what the fuck I want.
And I'm just an ordinary citizen in TP, lol.

MalfToday at 4:26 AM
Souls is out for NPO blood so IDK

SpikesToday at 4:26 AM

>> We've known each other for years.
Now don’t place too much credit on “you got me into GP by booting my noob ass out of tsp years ago”
It’s not like we knew each other :stuck_out_tongue:

Milo ZoldyckToday at 4:27 AM
Don't be so self-centered. <<< Because I was wrong about us knowing each other, I look like a total tool for saying this, lol
"We've known each other for years" means I think you're a cool dude. Comment: It turns out I was wrong. We have not known each other for years. I've simply known of him and considered his accomplishments, track record, and conduct to be "cool."

Also, AMA about why the NPO War is my fault, and why y'all should just give LoD a chance to turn things around. I'll answer every question with absolute thoroughness and careful thought. Unlike what I was doing in Discord with Souls.

After this thread, I'm going back to RP.

Yes, this AMA doubles as a shameless plug for the fact that I'm restarting Azhukali. Come through.

[Bowzin]

No where in the post do you touch on how exactly the NPO War is your fault, mind explaining?

[Milozoldyck]

No where in the post do you touch on how exactly the NPO War is your fault, mind explaining?

Sure. I will edit this post to include an answer. Prepare for a long post.

EDIT:

This post doesn't fully explain why everything is my fault. I'm lazy, honestly. But by the end of this thread, I hope to have clarified why everything is my fault, and why y'all shouldn't be so harsh on the NPO. Please ask questions about things that don't convince you. Because, somewhere in my mind, I have truthful answers that will.

---

For as long as I've been on this game, barring Ivan's delegacy, The Pacific delegacy has been in the hands of players that, in my opinion, are not as qualified to hold the office as myself. I'm a cocky guy. I consider Krulltopia and Aleisyr to be good friends, and far better Pacificans ... but not ideal candidates for serving as Emperor of The Pacific. That's just my opinion.

With that in mind, I am extremely frustrated at Gameplay's treatment of Lord of Darkness. LoD is exactly the Emperor I've been waiting years for, and you're all gonna screw it up and perpetuate the very thing you're fighting against with your "NPO delenda est" bullcrap. I am being completely straightforward here: publicly downplaying Krull and Aleisyr's is essentially my saying "goodbye" to my ambitions in The Pacific. Anyone who knows me knows those ambitions are not an easy thing for me to abandon.

Lord of Darkness is incredibly competent, has a vision for peace and prosperity, and has the time to make it all happen. If GP gives him a chance, this game will be much better for it. For that reason, it frustrates the hell out of me having to argue with Souls about semantics such as the case in my OP.

Having said that, let me describe a few -- but not all -- of the several reasons this war is my fault. That is all I truly wish to communicate.

I. War, rather than diplomacy, is how the issues in the Pacific are being responded to interregional right now, because in the past six years the NPO has meddled in other GCRs, banned the Senators involved after they got caught, and then later brought them back. You all think this is the same old story now. You think war is the only way to tell The Pacific that the same old song and dance isn't gonna fly, but lack internal context.

The SPSR was entirely a Milograd thing. Anyone who claims otherwise is ... not worth talking about, because no one thinks otherwise.

The PRL was mostly a Milograd thing. Anyone who claims otherwise is delusional.

The NLO was a Stujenske thing, but he wouldn't have done it if I didn't aggressively encourage him to after he booted Funkadelia. I told him to call it the "New Lazarene Order" because "technically the NPO doesn't have a trademark on the name or that flag design." That argument would've become a staple of our rhetoric had Kazmr not betrayed us. It was never an NPO project.

At the same time, calling it the NLO was meant to provoke Krull into possibly letting us make it one, y'know? Like, "hey, Krull, look! I'm already halfway there. Why not make it official?"He ultimately stepped down, because I made his life so goddamn difficult.

People have repeatedly been given second chances in The Pacific out of a sense of loyalty, and because it's been clear to Emperor's past that I was a/the driving force for corrupting Senators into subverting GCR's. Task Force Lazarus and Feux/AMOM's stuff just recently marks the first time I was not at all involved. For that reason, I don't think you can treat these incidents as being the same as prior ones.

Meanwhile, I hope Pergamon never returns to the Senate. But more on that later...

II. Collective Misunderstanding about Pacifica's Values Led to Senators Meddling in Other GCRs and Braindrain

The last 6 years in The Pacific have been derailed by players like myself, who have completely misunderstood what the New Pacific Order is all about, and also meddled in other GCR's.

Gaspo, Feux, AMOM, Karpathos, and I are all cut from a similar cloth; that is to say, we all (correctly) saw untapped potential in The Pacific, and tried putting our heart and soul into creating the region we had a vision for. In the absence of (what we considered to be) ambitious vision from the top, we thought being on the Senate enabled us to take matters into our own hands.

But we were foolish, insofar as we were a) impatient and b) not understanding the ideals of the New Pacific Order. Personally I made a bunch of irrational, damaging decisions for Pacifica's reputation abroad. I even got myself DoS and had to spend years away from the game. I'm not a reflection of a good Pacifican. I'm a degenerate.

What makes a good Pacific Senator? Contrary to what my peers and I thought, being loyal to the New Pacific Order and putting in NationStates equivalent of blood, sweat, and tears isn't it. A good Senator is one who is competent and works for the Emperor and his or her vision. Even if the Emperor lacks such vision. Elegarth, Aleisyr, Krull, Ivan, Rothinzil, Laws and Bylaws, etc. were great senators.

Feux, AMOM, Karp, Gaspo, Pergamon, and myself were utter crap.

We thought we were better than our rank, and we went out and did our own shit. That's not how the Senate works when it's healthy.

To that, you might say ... "but Milo, all of you are totally right to want an ambitious, thriving Pacifica ... it IS the fault of the Emperor! Someone such as yourself, and not Lord of Darkness, should be in charge.*" If you say that, you'd be making the same mistake I made. See, if I were Emperor, I wouldn't appoint Milograd to my Senate, because Milograd does what he wants, and that's ... not what makes a good Senator. A Senator would never make a post like this one right here. This is an Emperor move. And it's why I've chosen to depart from The Pacific. I can't be a regular citizen. But I support LoD.

*Okay, maybe you're not saying this part, but it's something I've been hearing lately.

I would have been smarter to sit on my ass and wait for my turn to be delegate, which would've inevitably come if I had been sufficiently boring. Although that sounds like a concession, it's a mature acknowledgement of the truth: That a lot of chaos, subversion abroad, closed embassies, etc would've been avoided if my fellow Senators and I had just done our damn jobs.

Q: None of this explains why the hell is everyone running around subverting GCR's. Or that weird dalliance with defenderism. What gives?

First of all, having Lazarus join the FRA was something -- as so many things often tended to be -- that I thought up and executed on my own. It was a Milo thing, not the NPO. I thought it'd be smart to be able to leverage them for endorsement support in case Griffin Somerset tried to retake the region (which she did attempt, in December 2013). I am indifferent towards military gameplay and thus joining the FRA was not a big deal to me. I knew we could leave whenever we wanted, and that taking sides in R/D would promote controversy.

As for subversion, that's another thing that starts with me. In my case, I heard stories about UPS Rail, Great Bight, the NPD, and so on and assumed that's what Pacific Senators are supposed do. Because of my age, I failed to place these incidents into the context of their time. When those things happened, The Pacific was at war. Meanwhile, when I overthrew The South Pacific, manipulated Lazarus, and told Stu to start the NLO ... there was no war. I was just causing senseless trouble for kicks. I wanted to play Pokemon with feeder and sinker delegacies: that is, I wanted to "catch 'em all."

I normalized this behavior and encouraged it in my peers. Anyone who knows me knows that I can be persuasive, and quite the influence, when I wish to be. Turning Lazarus into an NPO satellite was a Milograd Idea that Krull was never on board with. Krull would never propose such a thing. He just wanted to "fight Nazis." I thought that was uninspired. Frankly, Gameplay loved Krulltopia a lot more than it cares to admit.

All of this happened as I observed Feux's delegacy in Lazarus and saw it as an opportunity. I whispered in his ear that opening the region up to my machinations would help him make a case for becoming Emperor. The rest is history. Then I did the same with AMOM.

If you want to know what the real NPO looks like, look no further than AMOM's behavior before he was added to the Senate. AMOM's many contributions to The East Pacific, his activism about UDL subversion in TSP, his efforts when Balder and Osiris were founded, etc. is what Krull -- and The Pacific -- stood for. AMOM was a good boy who did a good job following orders. Everything in the NPO went downhill once I became serious about TP in 2013, and started aggressively promoting subversive behavior that was deviant from the Emperor's agenda.

Since returning to NS, I've quickly learned a lot about Gameplay. Believe it or not, it's possible to still learn new things many years after you begin playing. This post is my best offer of proof for that claim.

III. Pergamon learned more than I'm proud to admit from the People's Republic of Lazarus. Also, total spy.

Let's pretend for a second that Pergamon is a legitimate, not-spy player, whose purpose in this game isn't to sabotage The Pacific's image abroad. I don't believe that for a second. But let's just pretend.

Pergamon started out as a player called Alexej III in the People's Republic of Lazarus. For those who don't know, the PRL was my personal attempt to seize absolute power in a game-created region. There was a time, I believe, where I succeeded. The constitution was a farce, the People's Congress was a rubber stamp, and I micromanaged the region while imposing a super-low endorsement cap. I was down to stir up trouble wherever I saw fit.

I am the source of Perg's fondness for personality cults, purges, and trolling. "Follow the example of Comrade Milograd !!!" was a real thing in Lazarus. That's how you advanced. That's how you were taught to play. All his nonsense comes from me.

However, truthfully, I still just think Perg is a spy. I hate to throw a (beloved within TP, for being a good guy OOC) comrade under the bus, but I'm being completely open about everything and, come on now ... you mean to tell me that a new player who RPs a Orwellian-nightmare state (which is Milograd's well-known NS RP history, leading my two condemnations) decides to start on NationStates by immediately moving to the sinker run by Milograd, and has the wherewithal to run for office and make jaywalker jokes 6 days after joining NationStates? Then he follows us to The Pacific and becomes a hyper-active Senator/Regent, blowing up the region's PR once it's clear he'll never touch the delegacy? Bull fucking shit. I never trusted him for a second (sorry Gatesville, lol, for being utterly wrong on multiple counts), and it's a shame I wasn't around to tell the Pacific not to trust him, either.

I thought it was interesting that someone from TNI who is within driving distance of Pergamon recently popped up out of the blue and requested his forum account's deletion in The East Pacific. He was in the WA at the same time as Perg, so he's "in the clear," but in the back of my mind I can't ignore the possibility of nation-sharing. An infiltration of the Senate is certainly a tall enough mission to justify doing such a thing. It's a good thing TNI didn't have any motivation for infiltrating the People's Republic of Lazarus in the Fall of 2013.

Again, not saying Bert is Pergamon, but yeah. I don't think he's a reflection of the New Pacific Order one bit. Breaks my heart to see y'all blame Pacifica for his conduct, when I taught him his ways, brought him in ... and am the reason he passed a security check that he DEFINITELY shouldn't have.

Ultimately, to make a long story short, it's become unbearable for me to see the NPO catch so much flak for the circumstances that, if you were within the upper echelons of the Pacific, you'd easily be able to recognize as being wholly my fault. "NPO Delenda Est" should be "Milo delenda est," and I feel sufficiently bad about it that I don't want to play Gameplay anymore. The Pacific doesn't deserve it, and it angers me that they won't be forgiven for the sins which trace themselves back to me.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

Do you know where I can monger some fish?

[Milozoldyck]

Do you know where I can monger some fish?

#fishmongers

[Cormactopia Prime]

I think you're giving yourself too much credit, or taking too much blame if you'd prefer, for the NPO's actions. The NPO's culture fostered people like this. Krulltopia, Pierconium, and Aleisyr allowed that culture to fester and continue producing these results, again and again turning a blind eye to what their subordinates were doing, and refusing to oust people like Feux and Pergamon. They did nothing to stop Feux and Pergamon from continuing the subversive project you started. While you do share the blame for that, it's not entirely yours. The NPO is still responsible.

The war isn't going to suddenly stop because you're trying to turn yourself into the NPO's scapegoat to carry its collective burden. It's too late for that.

[Jar Wattinree]

Where can I get some beef?

[Milozoldyck]

I think you're giving yourself too much credit, or taking too much blame if you'd prefer, for the NPO's actions. The NPO's culture fostered people like this. Krulltopia, Pierconium, and Aleisyr allowed that culture to fester and continue producing these results, again and again turning a blind eye to what their subordinates were doing, and refusing to oust people like Feux and Pergamon. They did nothing to stop Feux and Pergamon from continuing the subversive project you started. While you do share the blame for that, it's not entirely yours. The NPO is still responsible.

The war isn't going to suddenly stop because you're trying to turn yourself into the NPO's scapegoat to carry its collective burden. It's too late for that.

I'm not trying to scapegoat myself.

Rather, I'm simply pointing out that you're wasting your time and hurting The Pacific. My motivation for this post is caring about The Pacific, but not giving a shit about Gameplay. I have no more stake in this nonsense. The injustices you seek to bring a stop to are already being prevented by LoD's ascension to the Delegacy, and everything else in this "war" is just needlessly destructive.

I would know better about what happened than any outsiders, including yourself. But like I said on Discord, the truth doesn't matter, because I just told you it, and you're not convinced. You and the entire "NPO Delenda Est" crowd are trying to get Lord of Darkness and The Pacific to give you something that doesn't exist -- that is, a truth or a response that will satisfy you. The log in my OP demonstrates that entirely. I'm being completely reasonable in that chat while Souls is simply sniping for propaganda quotes.

The Pacific has already solved the problem you really care about, which is subversion. The only way for TP to prove that is to go a long time without subverting GCR's ... and I hope to help them avoid being needlessly assaulted with propaganda for the entire duration of that "long time."

It's impossible, though. You already believe what you want to believe. A former NPO Senator at the heart of most of the NPO's subversions into other GCR's just came out and said the literal fucking truth, and you're still not happy.

That's why I'm going back to RP. GP is hopeless. Have fun bringing those windmills to justice, Don Quixote.

[Milozoldyck]

Where can I get some beef?

My favorite beef-selling regions are Azhukali, The Pacific, Lazarus, The West Pacific, Gholgoth, and Greater Dienstad.

EDIT: Also, Fishmongers, but Nazis BLITZKRIEG currently own it.

[Cormactopia Prime]

I think you're giving yourself too much credit, or taking too much blame if you'd prefer, for the NPO's actions. The NPO's culture fostered people like this. Krulltopia, Pierconium, and Aleisyr allowed that culture to fester and continue producing these results, again and again turning a blind eye to what their subordinates were doing, and refusing to oust people like Feux and Pergamon. They did nothing to stop Feux and Pergamon from continuing the subversive project you started. While you do share the blame for that, it's not entirely yours. The NPO is still responsible.

The war isn't going to suddenly stop because you're trying to turn yourself into the NPO's scapegoat to carry its collective burden. It's too late for that.

I'm not trying to scapegoat myself.

Rather, I'm simply pointing out that you're wasting your time and hurting The Pacific. My motivation for this post is caring about The Pacific, but not giving a shit about Gameplay. I have no more stake in this nonsense. The injustices you seek to bring a stop to are already being prevented by LoD's ascension to the Delegacy, and everything else in this "war" is just needlessly destructive.

I would know better about what happened than any outsiders, including yourself. But like I said on Discord, the truth doesn't matter, because I just told you it, and you're not convinced. You and the entire "NPO Delenda Est" crowd are trying to get Lord of Darkness and The Pacific to give you something that doesn't exist -- that is, a truth or a response that will satisfy you. The log in my OP demonstrates that entirely. The Pacific has already solved the problem you really care about, which is subversion. The only way for TP to prove that is to go a long time without subverting GCR's ... and I hope to help them avoid being needlessly assaulted with propaganda for the entire duration of that "long time."

It's impossible, though. You already believe what you want to believe. A former NPO Senator at the heart of most of the NPO's subversions into other GCR's just came out and said the literal fucking truth, and you're still not happy.

That's why I'm going back to RP. GP is hopeless. Have fun bringing those windmills to justice, Don Quixote.

Why would we be convinced??? We've gotten "the truth" from the NPO numerous times. It turned out to be fiction. You're acting like we're being unreasonable for not believing the NPO, but at some point when a group lies to you enough, you stop believing a word they're saying. That's normal.

I really don't know what to tell you. You and the NPO made this bed, and now you have to lie in it. Maybe you shouldn't have lied and subverted for years.

[Milozoldyck]

I'm not trying to scapegoat myself.

Rather, I'm simply pointing out that you're wasting your time and hurting The Pacific. My motivation for this post is caring about The Pacific, but not giving a shit about Gameplay. I have no more stake in this nonsense. The injustices you seek to bring a stop to are already being prevented by LoD's ascension to the Delegacy, and everything else in this "war" is just needlessly destructive.

I would know better about what happened than any outsiders, including yourself. But like I said on Discord, the truth doesn't matter, because I just told you it, and you're not convinced. You and the entire "NPO Delenda Est" crowd are trying to get Lord of Darkness and The Pacific to give you something that doesn't exist -- that is, a truth or a response that will satisfy you. The log in my OP demonstrates that entirely. The Pacific has already solved the problem you really care about, which is subversion. The only way for TP to prove that is to go a long time without subverting GCR's ... and I hope to help them avoid being needlessly assaulted with propaganda for the entire duration of that "long time."

It's impossible, though. You already believe what you want to believe. A former NPO Senator at the heart of most of the NPO's subversions into other GCR's just came out and said the literal fucking truth, and you're still not happy.

That's why I'm going back to RP. GP is hopeless. Have fun bringing those windmills to justice, Don Quixote.

Why would we be convinced??? We've gotten "the truth" from the NPO numerous times. It turned out to be fiction. You're acting like we're being unreasonable for not believing the NPO, but at some point when a group of people lies to you enough, you stop believing a word they're saying. That's normal.

I really don't know what to tell you. You and the NPO made this bed, and now you have to lie in it. Maybe you shouldn't have lied and subverted for years.

That's the reason I'm quitting! There's no hope! I did make this bed, but I don't have to lie in it, because it totally sucks! I'm going to go have fun RPing.

Meanwhile, you are going to spend a ton of time fighting a war you know you can't win. Everyone knows you can't win. You're not even sure what winning looks like. "Change?" I'm sure. But what change? The Pacific delegacy isn't going to change hands because of anything you do. The Pacific's policies aren't going to change because of anything you do. The only thing that will change is how many people get frustrated and invest time into a conflict instead of building their regions internally.

It's moronic. I just told you the absolute truth about The Pacific, and it doesn't make a difference.

[Cormactopia Prime]

That's the reason I'm quitting! There's no hope!

You are going to spend a ton of time fighting a war you know you can't win. Everyone knows you can't win. You're not even sure what you hope to gain out of it. "Change?" I'm sure. But what change? The Pacific delegacy isn't going to change hands because of anything you do. The Pacific's policies aren't going to change because of anything you do. The only thing that will change is how many people get frustrated and invest time into a conflict instead of building their regions internally.

It's moronic. Why not give LoD a chance?

"Building our regions internally" to do what? Sit around having a million festivals? This is what gameplay is supposed to be. Gameplay is supposed to be about politics, and interregional affairs, and conflict. It isn't supposed to be about turning our regions into an NS version of social media.

I don't accept your defeatist attitude about this. If everyone always had that attitude, nothing would have changed in gameplay over the years.

In regard to your final question: Seriously? After all of this, after the NLO and the chance we gave the NPO after that, and then after Pergamon blowing up the GCR Sovereignty Accords and the chance we gave the NPO after that, are you seriously asking why don't we just give the NPO another chance? Because giving them another chance is how we always end up right back in this mess. There is nothing at all unreasonable about those who have been repeatedly wronged by the NPO deciding they're not giving them another chance to do it all over again.

[Milozoldyck]

That's the reason I'm quitting! There's no hope!

You are going to spend a ton of time fighting a war you know you can't win. Everyone knows you can't win. You're not even sure what you hope to gain out of it. "Change?" I'm sure. But what change? The Pacific delegacy isn't going to change hands because of anything you do. The Pacific's policies aren't going to change because of anything you do. The only thing that will change is how many people get frustrated and invest time into a conflict instead of building their regions internally.

It's moronic. Why not give LoD a chance?

"Building our regions internally" to do what? Sit around having a million festivals? This is what gameplay is supposed to be. Gameplay is supposed to be about politics, and interregional affairs, and conflict. It isn't supposed to be about turning our regions into an NS version of social media.

I don't accept your defeatist attitude about this. If everyone always had that attitude, nothing would have changed in gameplay over the years.

In regard to your final question: Seriously? After all of this, after the NLO and the chance we gave the NPO after that, and then after Pergamon blowing up the GCR Sovereignty Accords and the chance we gave the NPO after that, are you seriously asking why don't we just give the NPO another chance? Because giving them another chance is how we always end up right back in this mess. There is nothing at all unreasonable about those who have been repeatedly wronged by the NPO deciding they're not giving them another chance to do it all over again.

Bold mine. Answer: yes. A new Emperor is essentially a brand new slate, practically speaking. LoD was the most disconnected-from-subversion choice for delegate the NPO had. It is a pretty big deal for The Pacific to change Emperors. You want something more but can't tell me what. That screams of "waste of time" to me.

Like I said, your war won't achieve anything. So it's dumb, not fun, and a waste of time. There will be no exciting battles. Just annoying arguments.

You're basically attacking The Pacific because you lack faith in ADMIN implementing Faction Gameplay or something to make Gameplay legitimately interesting again. R/D is dead right now, but even if it weren't, it got stale a decade ago. NPO Delenda Est is just you trying to convince yourself that you're having fun playing NationStates Gameplay. But ultimately, it will only lead to frustration for everyone, because nothing compelling, new, or interesting will come out of it.

EDIT: I've edited this post, and many of the posts in this thread, many times. That's just because I care very much about how I communicate the ideas I'm expressing here. I'm not being shifty.

[Kurnugia]

"Building our regions internally" to do what? Sit around having a million festivals? This is what gameplay is supposed to be. Gameplay is supposed to be about politics, and interregional affairs, and conflict. It isn't supposed to be about turning our regions into an NS version of social media.

I don't accept your defeatist attitude about this. If everyone always had that attitude, nothing would have changed in gameplay over the years.

In regard to your final question: Seriously? After all of this, after the NLO and the chance we gave the NPO after that, and then after Pergamon blowing up the GCR Sovereignty Accords and the chance we gave the NPO after that, are you seriously asking why don't we just give the NPO another chance? Because giving them another chance is how we always end up right back in this mess. There is nothing at all unreasonable about those who have been repeatedly wronged by the NPO deciding they're not giving them another chance to do it all over again.

Bold mine. Answer: yes. A new Emperor is essentially a brand new slate, practically speaking. LoD was the most disconnected-from-subversion choice for delegate the NPO had.

Like I said, your war won't achieve anything. So it's dumb, not fun, and a waste of time. There will be no exciting battles. Just annoying arguments.

You're basically attacking The Pacific because ADMIN hasn't implemented Faction Gameplay or something to give legitimate life to Gameplay again. Tell me I'm wrong.

Culture is the reason why many don't trust the NPO. I mean iirc LoD said that he was primarily a fixer and not a more permanent solution. So how do we know that future emperors won't fall back to this pattern of behaviour? Because I do think that people on top of the pile are listening to what their "subjects" are thinking. Right now, I know only of one maybe two NPOer that have opposed this behaviour.

[Milozoldyck]

Bold mine. Answer: yes. A new Emperor is essentially a brand new slate, practically speaking. LoD was the most disconnected-from-subversion choice for delegate the NPO had.

Like I said, your war won't achieve anything. So it's dumb, not fun, and a waste of time. There will be no exciting battles. Just annoying arguments.

You're basically attacking The Pacific because ADMIN hasn't implemented Faction Gameplay or something to give legitimate life to Gameplay again. Tell me I'm wrong.

Culture is the reason why many don't trust the NPO. I mean iirc LoD said that he was primarily a fixer and not a more permanent solution. So how do we know that future emperors won't fall back to this pattern of behaviour? Because I do think that people on top of the pile are listening to what their "subjects" are thinking. Right now, I know only of one maybe two NPOer that have opposed this behaviour.

He's a fixer in the sense that the problems of the past will not repeat themselves after he shows what a legitimately prosperous delegacy looks like. By being "not permanent," he means he isn't going to sit on the throne for a Krull-number of years.

---

Also, to further reply to Cormac, I don't suggest festivals. Festivals are lame. I hate them too. Even in this depressing desert that is Gameplay, I see plenty of opportunities for fun. For instance:

Why not try to permanently colonize all the warzones? Run stamps out of them and create a federation. Use their vulnerability as an incentive to conduct meaningful FA.

Why not have a GCR start recruiting from other GCR's? There's something meaningful to argue over. It's insane to me that it's never been done seriously, all these years after the introduction of stamps. There's some real ground to be broken there. TNP has been the most ambitious GCR with their endorsement program. The results have paid off, as other GCR's are dwarfed in comparison by their size.

Why not form a new UDL? I may think R/D is a dead horse, but that still doesn't excuse the lack of a legitimate defender force existing nowadays.

Those are just a few ideas that would be more or less new and interesting. Certainly more so than fighting a war with no attainable goal, where nothing positive will come from your continued efforts.

EDIT: The Black Hawks are a different story, as the NPO actually declared war on them. I think they should end that war. It's equally silly, and The Black Hawks are historically one of my favorite groups to work with. Hence Mall sharing accounts with me in TSP.

[Cormactopia Prime]

"Building our regions internally" to do what? Sit around having a million festivals? This is what gameplay is supposed to be. Gameplay is supposed to be about politics, and interregional affairs, and conflict. It isn't supposed to be about turning our regions into an NS version of social media.

I don't accept your defeatist attitude about this. If everyone always had that attitude, nothing would have changed in gameplay over the years.

In regard to your final question: Seriously? After all of this, after the NLO and the chance we gave the NPO after that, and then after Pergamon blowing up the GCR Sovereignty Accords and the chance we gave the NPO after that, are you seriously asking why don't we just give the NPO another chance? Because giving them another chance is how we always end up right back in this mess. There is nothing at all unreasonable about those who have been repeatedly wronged by the NPO deciding they're not giving them another chance to do it all over again.

Bold mine. Answer: yes. A new Emperor is essentially a brand new slate, practically speaking. LoD was the most disconnected-from-subversion choice for delegate the NPO had.

Like I said, your war won't achieve anything. So it's dumb, not fun, and a waste of time. There will be no exciting battles. Just annoying arguments.

You're basically attacking The Pacific because you lack faith in ADMIN implementing Faction Gameplay or something to make Gameplay legitimately interesting again. R/D is dead right now, but even if it weren't, it got stale a decade ago. NPO Delenda Est is just you trying to convince yourself that you're having fun playing NationStates Gameplay. But ultimately, it will only lead to frustration for everyone, because nothing compelling, new, or interesting will come out of it.

No, you're wrong. I'm attacking the NPO because the NPO attacked Osiris, and I have no intention of just sitting around waiting for the next infiltration and subversion attempt -- which may be the one that's finally successful. You can't just expect, after the NPO attacked Osiris, that I will now quietly back off and give them another chance -- because I will never do that. They brought the war to my doorstep, and I'm sure not going to be told I'm the unreasonable one for taking the fight back to them instead of just waiting for them to attack yet again.

This is not even to mention the continual war the NPO has been fighting with Lazarus since sometime in 2013. It's been five years of pretty much unending war against Lazarus by the NPO, and now that it's all been exposed you're saying it's unreasonable not to give them another chance? Give me a break.

[Milozoldyck]

This is not even to mention the continual war the NPO has been fighting with Lazarus since sometime in 2013. It's been five years of pretty much unending war against Lazarus by the NPO, and now that it's all been exposed you're saying it's unreasonable not to give them another chance? Give me a break.

Like I said, I told you the truth about that "war" against Lazarus, and it's not the truth you wanted to hear. You want the NPO's actions in Lazarus to be the result of The Pacific being a cohesive, rationally-acting enemy. I'm telling you that the war in Lazarus was the result of a bunch of moron Senators acting out in the absence of a delegate who knows how to keep his troops in line, and that the new leadership is actually competent.

That's not something you've ever heard before. No one in TP has ever had the balls to defect and admit incompetence. Give me a break.

[Milozoldyck]

The problems of the Pacific in the past have been problems of incompetence. Pergamon was a joke.

Seriously, how the hell was that guy the Regent of The Pacific? He was running around telling you and your allies to "stop masturbating" because you disagreed with him. What the fuck is that?

That's not how a Senator acts, let alone the Regent. Let alone most adult players. Let alone most children.

Do you really believe that a healthy Pacific would have Pergamon as a Regent? Or allow him to do any of the shit he did? Come on.

Lord of Darkness is the real deal, and this thread is the realest thing that's been said about the NPO by anyone affiliated with The Pacific in the past 10 years. Change is finally here and you're all screwing it up with your "NPO Delenda Est' campaign. I'll die on this hill.

[Milozoldyck]

tl;dr you'd be much wiser to direct all this effort trying to sway public opinion against the NPO towards swaying ADMIN to change gameplay mechanics

This, of course, is unreasonably reasonable, and therefore won't ever happen.

[Remnants of Exilvania]

Where can I get some beef?

My favorite beef-selling regions are Azhukali, The Pacific, Lazarus, The West Pacific, Gholgoth, and Greater Dienstad.

EDIT: Also, Fishmongers, but Nazis currently own it.

What ?

[Milozoldyck]

My favorite beef-selling regions are Azhukali, The Pacific, Lazarus, The West Pacific, Gholgoth, and Greater Dienstad.

EDIT: Also, Fishmongers, but Nazis currently own it.

What ?

Just read your WFE. My apologies! I've been gone for a few years.

I've edited my post. Happy to see that BLITZKRIEG is no longer letting Fascists and Nazis into its region. Genuine progress.

[Remnants of Exilvania]

What ?

Just read your WFE. My apologies! I've been gone for a few years.

I've edited my post. Happy to see that BLITZKRIEG is no longer letting Fascists and Nazis into its region. Genuine progress.

Thank you

It's been about 2 years now that we left the nazis.

[Darkesia]

… A new Emperor is essentially a brand new slate, practically speaking. LoD was the most disconnected-from-subversion choice for delegate the NPO had. It is a pretty big deal for The Pacific to change Emperors. You want something more but can't tell me what. That screams of "waste of time" to me...

I disagree with just about every word of this snip.
You begin with so many assumptions that are incorrect.

What gave you the idea that a new Delegate within the same command structure and same culture is a clean slate? It is rather, a promise of more of the same, despite the pretty speeches that generally come out at the time of the change. That is not a thing exclusive to The Pacific. Every new delegate worth the seat (and many who aren't worth the seat) give a speech about how they will run things differently and how everyone should look to the future with optimism about the coming change. Most of the time, players cross their fingers and hope the new Delegate can manage at least one of the changes on their list. But once the culture of the region is settled and decided, not much really changes but names, graphics and titles.

The Pacific has long nurtured a culture which fostered internal resentment within a group that should be a merit based, cohesive unit. Then that internal resentment fostered an attitude of external glory seeking. Your attempt at taking credit for something that started long before you arrived on the scene is just more glory seeking as far as I can see.

I believe the group chanting "NPO delenda est" while not something I would do, is very clear about what they want. They seek the end of the NPO. They are not seeking the end of The Pacific. It seems to me that this situation could be a potential gold mine for someone who was interested in Political Roleplay rather than game r/d mechanics. I'm just sayin'

After all that, I should mention that LoD went to the trouble to address my individual concerns about his/her origins outside of NS. I appreciate it greatly and have kept quiet, not because those concerns have gone, but because I am aware that despite holding no position in the TWP government, my words will be taken as such. Your desire to be simultaneously thought of as the "root of the NPO's evil" and someone "too unimportant" to speak with any gravity is baffling. You can try, but I promise you will not have it both ways.


Carry on. I'll be over here with the beef.

[Milozoldyck]

BREAKING NEWS: "NPO DELENDA EST" REACHES 166 FORUM MENTIONS
The oppressed natives of The Pacific (i.e. those who weren't already kicked out 15 years ago) anticipate long-awaited democratic revolution

THE NATIONSTATES FORUM — With the click of his finger, Comrade Milograd posted the hyper-meta article "'NPO Delenda Est' Reaches 167 Forum Mentions," which, in an even more meta fashion, was actually the 166th post which makes the article true. Before this post by Milozoldyck, there were only 165 forum mentions of "NPO Delenda Est." But now there are 166. In light of this development, East Durthag is reportedly looking for a replacement, and is considering making the Pacific an anti-NRA kibbutz.

A screenshot of the search results for "NPO Delenda Est" on the NationStates forum, prior to the 165th post by Darkesia, who ninja'd Milograd . Funnily enough, not all 166 posts actually are really even "NPO Delenda Est" posts. The first result is by SPSR Revolution Hero Questers.

Comrade Milograd was going to make his article longer, but realizes that attempting to reason through this war is as futile as fighting it. That's why he's restarting Azhukali, which, if you're reading this, you should move a puppet into.

And though you hate to admit it, you know Milograd is Not Wrong™.

© 2018 Vandelay Industries, specializing in mixing up references and propane accessories

UPDATE: We (read: just Milograd) apologize for misleading our (i.e. his) readers. Due to Milograd's slow internet, Darkesia was able to post before him. Therefore, the information originally presented in this article was incorrect. Not Wrong™ takes being Not Wrong™ seriously, and thus apologizes. We have updated our report.

UPDATE 2: I had to add ™ a ton of times, to further illustrate the point.

[Milozoldyck]

Fucking hell, you ruined my post, Dark. There are now 166 posts which mention a certain phrase I cannot mention, lest it be 167.

If we keep going, maybe something meaningful will happen in The Pacific!

EDIT: To uphold the principles of journalistic integrity, I have updated my original news post to account for the fact that Darkesia made a post which contains the phrase "NPO Delenda Est." NationStates Gameplay is getting very interesting.