#MeToo Becomes #LeaveMeAlone

[Vince Vaughn]

So how many actual cases of people actually having their lives actually ruined by actual false accusations of sexual assault are there?

It's hard to say because there isn't a lot of data. Much like how most rapes go unreported, people getting fired from their jobs over this is pretty hard to quantify. Most firings are not public information, and if they are, the company can give any reason for why someone was fired.

[Galloism]

This guy would like a word.

Vass asked for quantity.

Hard to say. Historically, probably in the tens of thousands at least, if not hundreds of thousands. Keep in mind the United States has a long history of punishing men, especially black men, on some egregiously flimsy grounds for raping our good white women.

That frequently ended with lynching.

[Vassenor]

So how many actual cases of people actually having their lives actually ruined by actual false accusations of sexual assault are there?

This guy would like a word.

So one example from a decade or more ago.

I thought this sort of thing was meant to be happening constantly in the modern day to the point where we are meant to assume that any accusation is false and malicious until proven otherwise.

[Vince Vaughn]

Vass asked for quantity.

Hard to say. Historically, probably in the tens of thousands at least, if not hundreds of thousands. Keep in mind the United States has a long history of punishing men, especially black men, on some egregiously flimsy grounds for raping our good white women.

That frequently ended with lynching.

That's something I didn't consider. People have been murdered over false rape accusations.

[Galloism]

This guy would like a word.

So one example from a decade or more ago.

I thought this sort of thing was meant to be happening constantly in the modern day to the point where we are meant to assume that any accusation is false and malicious until proven otherwise.

That's a strawman. What's more important to understand is that presumption of innocence should be a central facet of our society, but that is rapidly being eroded.

People, especially people targeted by such, are justifiably concerned by this.

That doesn't mean that what they're doing is ok. Instead of barring one on ones with female employees, they should just bar one on ones in general and maintain an equal work environment. Their female employees aren't individually responsible for the sexist treatment society will give them on the basis of their sex (and, if they are black, doubly so on the basis of their race AND sex). They're part of the system the same as the men are.

[Galloism]

Hard to say. Historically, probably in the tens of thousands at least, if not hundreds of thousands. Keep in mind the United States has a long history of punishing men, especially black men, on some egregiously flimsy grounds for raping our good white women.

That frequently ended with lynching.

That's something I didn't consider. People have been murdered over false rape accusations.

Oh yes, quite a few wrongful convictions and murders based on those grounds. In the US, we have a really bad history of just not caring about the presumption of innocence when it comes to black men, and while that's now being expanded to men in general, black men are still especially at risk.

[New haven america]

So how many actual cases of people actually having their lives actually ruined by actual false accusations of sexual assault are there?

A lot.

Hell, it's arguable that the US Civil Rights Movement was really kicked off by the false accusation and subsequent murder of Emmett Till.

[Vince Vaughn]

That's something I didn't consider. People have been murdered over false rape accusations.

Oh yes, quite a few wrongful convictions and murders based on those grounds. In the US, we have a really bad history of just not caring about the presumption of innocence when it comes to black men, and while that's now being expanded to men in general, black men are still especially at risk.

I'd imagine it's been more than black men, even back in the day. I wouldn't be surprised if men in general who had a dispute with someone in a high place weren't on the receiving end of some flimsy chargers (rape or otherwise). Men in the Wild West (even white ones) were lynched if the town thought they were beating their wives.

[Valentine Z]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

I know, it's Wikipedia... (as if it was a bad source), but if you want to start researching, it has a good bibliography/reference at the bottom.

So yes, it has indeed happened plenty of times. A witch trial, more or less. I still believe in innocent until proven guilty.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

I thought this sort of thing was meant to be happening constantly in the modern day to the point where we are meant to assume that any accusation is false and malicious until proven otherwise.

That is outright projection. It is people on your side who are trying to change the burden of proof. There is in fact a movement that is determined to establish a system where the man is guilty until proven innocent, rather than innocent until proven guilty.

[New haven america]

This guy would like a word.

So one example from a decade or more ago.

I thought this sort of thing was meant to be happening constantly in the modern day to the point where we are meant to assume that any accusation is false and malicious until proven otherwise.

Don't strawman.

You should know better.

[Vassenor]

I thought this sort of thing was meant to be happening constantly in the modern day to the point where we are meant to assume that any accusation is false and malicious until proven otherwise.

That is outright projection. It is people on your side who are trying to change the burden of proof. There is in fact a movement that is determined to establish a system where the man is guilty until proven innocent, rather than innocent until proven guilty.

So when has that actually happened?

[New haven america]

That is outright projection. It is people on your side who are trying to change the burden of proof. There is in fact a movement that is determined to establish a system where the man is guilty until proven innocent, rather than innocent until proven guilty.

So when has that actually happened?

Literally posted an example only 4 posts ago...

[Galloism]

Oh yes, quite a few wrongful convictions and murders based on those grounds. In the US, we have a really bad history of just not caring about the presumption of innocence when it comes to black men, and while that's now being expanded to men in general, black men are still especially at risk.

I'd imagine it's been more than black men, even back in the day. I wouldn't be surprised if men in general who had a dispute with someone in a high place weren't on the receiving end of some flimsy chargers (rape or otherwise). Men in the Wild West (even white ones) were lynched if the town thought they were beating their wives.

No doubt, but black men are especially at risk, even in the modern day.

Hell, in the context of college today, we know black male students disproportionately make up those accused of sexual assault and misconduct. Numbers are hard to come by, but we have a little:

Colgate University was recently investigated by the Office for Civil Rights for potential race discrimination, a Title VI violation, in its sexual-assault adjudication process. The university was cleared in April, on the grounds that the numbers did not allow OCR to conclude that race was a statistically significant factor in Colgate’s adjudications—in any given year the number of men of any race referred for formal hearings was in the single digits. (The investigation does not appear to have examined any individual cases or otherwise reach beyond this statistical analysis.) But the report did bring those statistics to light, a rarity. In the 2013–14 academic year, 4.2 percent of Colgate’s students were black. According to the university’s records, in that year black male students were accused of 50 percent of the sexual violations reported to the university, and they made up 40 percent of the students formally adjudicated.

During the three academic years from 2012–13 to 2014–15, black students were accused of 25 percent of the sexual misconduct reported to the university, and made up 21 percent of the students referred for formal hearings. Fifteen percent of the students found responsible for assault in those years were black. During that same three-year period, Asian students, who constituted a little more than 3 percent of Colgate’s student body in 2013, were more than 13 percent of the accused, 21 percent of those referred for hearings, and 23 percent of those found responsible. (The rest were white; no Hispanic students were accused.)

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/a ... es/539361/

That well known right-wing rag the Atlantic reported on it of course, but it's still something to consider - how much of this is pushed against men (rather than women being accused), and, even among men, among minority men (rather than white men).

[LiberNovusAmericae]

That is outright projection. It is people on your side who are trying to change the burden of proof. There is in fact a movement that is determined to establish a system where the man is guilty until proven innocent, rather than innocent until proven guilty.

So when has that actually happened?

I didn't say that it happened. I said that there are idiots in the gender studies "profession" who want to make it happen.

[Vassenor]

So one example from a decade or more ago.

I thought this sort of thing was meant to be happening constantly in the modern day to the point where we are meant to assume that any accusation is false and malicious until proven otherwise.

Don't strawman.

You should know better.

Is it really a straw man when people are still going on about false accusations to ruin lives whenever a high profile rape case hits the news?

[New haven america]

It doesn't surprise me, tbh.

The sort that Kav has been painted as strike me as the type who go into finance.

One of the analysts at the office hooked up with a girl during it and straight up asked her in one of those "I sound like I'm joking but I'm really not" tones if she was going to accuse him of impropriety 37 years down the line. People joke a lot less at work (or at least wait until the ladies leave).

The sort that Kav has been painted as strike me as the type who go into finance.

Kav is an attorney. I resent that.

Don't hook up at work.

Problem solved.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

So one example from a decade or more ago.

I thought this sort of thing was meant to be happening constantly in the modern day to the point where we are meant to assume that any accusation is false and malicious until proven otherwise.

Don't strawman.

You should know better.

I'm sorry, but don't bother. Vassenor will continue to do it, no matter what.

[Xenophone]

This guy would like a word.

Vass asked for quantity.

Quality's Better.

[Vince Vaughn]

One of the analysts at the office hooked up with a girl during it and straight up asked her in one of those "I sound like I'm joking but I'm really not" tones if she was going to accuse him of impropriety 37 years down the line. People joke a lot less at work (or at least wait until the ladies leave).



Kav is an attorney. I resent that.

Don't hook up at work.

Problem solved.

Evidently, even not hooking up isn't enough.

[New haven america]

Don't strawman.

You should know better.

Is it really a straw man when people are still going on about false accusations to ruin lives whenever a high profile rape case hits the news?

That's not what we're talking about though, we're talking about the actual false accusations that ruin lives and ruin the credibility of actual victims in the eyes of the law.

The only people here who are defending people like Weinstein and Lauer are those who have a history of always turning topics to men's issues.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Vass asked for quantity.

Quality's Better.

Agreed, because statistics are not always the most accurate, especially when not all cases are reported.

[Right wing humour squad]

Don't hook up at work.

Problem solved.

Evidently, even not hooking up isn't enough.

That’s why we’re trying not associating at all.

[Galloism]

Evidently, even not hooking up isn't enough.

That’s why we’re trying not associating at all.

If you do that, you should do so in a gender neutral fashion, or you're setting yourself up for a discrimination claim.

Also, it would prevent being horrible on the basis of the gender.

[Costa Fierro]

Women make up half the population on the planet (slightly more or slightly less depending on where you find yourself) and there have only been a handful of false accusations that have ruined people. The bulk have never been conclusively proven and most have been high-profile, however, so the rational thing to think is "oh, this is a non-issue because I'm not famous in the same way those other guys were, plus these are a minority of a minority of women, I'm sure I've nothing to fear"

Have you been living in a cave for the past six months?

Therefore, the logical conclusion would be to either do nothing or maybe make sure you don't give these women an opening to attack you. Obvious exception, of course, is that you do have something to fear if guilty. But I don't see most of these men as guilty, just not thinking.

They have something to fear, because they're not guilty.

The potential is so small as to be negligible

That's not even remotely true.