Brazil Second Presidential N Paliament Elections 2018 Genral

[Virgolia]

my personal property is my private property.

Private property usually includes personal property, yeah, but the private property of the means of production does not fall under private property and it goes to the chopping block. Unless... I dunno... you have, like, a cute little gun shop or bakery where you are the only one working, I guess?

Why is it bad to have employees? If you don't exploit them and you give them a fair wage then it's okay,you aren't forcing them to work nor taking advantage of them.

[Uxupox]

my personal property is my private property.

Private property usually includes personal property, yeah, but the private property of the means of production does not fall under private property and it goes to the chopping block. Unless... I dunno... you have, like, a cute little gun shop or bakery where you are the only one working, I guess?

Still belongs to me and I'm not going to give my stuff to anybody but me. I worked hard for my belongings and I'd be damned if I let anybody take it from me.

[Bombadil]

Capitalism is far from perfect,but it's the best system we currently know.

Doesn't mean we can't think of better alternatives, and try to implement them. As you said, it's far from perfect, so why should we settle forever?

Possibly we need to see the worst of it once in a while to understand that votes have consequences, and potentially this will swing back to more centrist and moderate politics.

[Liriena]

I do not look forward to toll booths on every street. Not at all. :/

Would be cool to see Dominoes pave that hole in my street though that the city hasn't gotten to in the last 2 years or so. :/

Here's a thought: get together with the rest of the neighborhood and get it done cooperatively. Don't put your faith in the good will of Domino's or the city's bureaucracy. :3

[Great Minarchistan]

I supported our newly founded libertarian party in these elections, while pushing for Bolsonaro pragmatically in the second round due to the lack of any other good choice. This has been explained for long enough but you apparently insist to call me an enemy of the liberty for supporting authoritarians...

Gee, maybe it has to do with the fucking fact that supporting authoritarianism is intrinsically anti-liberty?

Someone doesnt know what a second round in an election is...

[Virgolia]

Capitalism is far from perfect,but it's the best system we currently know.

Doesn't mean we can't think of better alternatives, and try to implement them. As you said, it's far from perfect, so why should we settle forever?

Who said it's forever?
And no,you can't just implement alternative or decide which is better,when the economic decisions of a country start putting it ahead of the others then a new,better economic system will be born.
You can't force an economic change,it took time for capitalism to surpass feudalism.

[Torrocca]

Gee, maybe it has to do with the fucking fact that supporting authoritarianism is intrinsically anti-liberty?

Someone doesnt know what a second round in an election is...

I don't care about that, quite frankly; the fact of the matter is, you went against your pro-liberty facade to help fuck over others in support of authoritarianism.

[Northern Davincia]

However, I did not build my house. Aren't the workers entitled to my house, as the product of their labor?

I'd make houses the exception because, y'know, people need a roof. So long as the workers have homes of their own, it's all good.

I do kinda like the idea of democratizing the Hamptoms, Beverly Hills and Midtown Manhattan tho. A nice bit of reverse gentrification. ;3

That exception is completely arbitrary. You're depriving the workers of their product.

[Liriena]

Private property usually includes personal property, yeah, but the private property of the means of production does not fall under private property and it goes to the chopping block. Unless... I dunno... you have, like, a cute little gun shop or bakery where you are the only one working, I guess?

Why is it bad to have employees? If you don't exploit them and you give them a fair wage then it's okay,you aren't forcing them to work nor taking advantage of them.

I'm not an economist, let alone an expert in Marxist economic theory, but IIRC it's assumed that, in principle, if you are turning a profit, you are not giving your employees a fair wage. And there's a libertarian/anarchist argument that could be made, that a business in which the owner has absolute power over the employees by virtue of owning the means of production, however small the business may be, is an inherently tyrannical and unjust hierarchy, and that it would be better for the functioning of the business to be more horizontal and democratic.

[Great Minarchistan]

Someone doesnt know what a second round in an election is...

I don't care about that, quite frankly; the fact of the matter is, you went against your pro-liberty facade to help fuck over others in support of authoritarianism.

Choice 1: low political liberty, good civil liberty, low economic liberty
Choice 2: reasonable political liberty, reasonable civil liberty, high economic liberty

Uhhhh I take the second one, ty

[Torrocca]

I don't care about that, quite frankly; the fact of the matter is, you went against your pro-liberty facade to help fuck over others in support of authoritarianism.

Choice 1: low political liberty, good civil liberty, low economic liberty
Choice 2: reasonable political liberty, reasonable civil liberty, high economic liberty

Uhhhh I take the second one, ty

>Reasonable
>Under a literal authoritarian

Lmao.

I bet you'll still be singing his praises as your civil liberties are eroded.

[Great Minarchistan]

Why is it bad to have employees? If you don't exploit them and you give them a fair wage then it's okay,you aren't forcing them to work nor taking advantage of them.

Workers are paid a fair valuation of their worth in the market, else unemployment would be artificially high/low

[Germanic Templars]

Someone doesnt know what a second round in an election is...

I don't care about that, quite frankly; the fact of the matter is, you went against your pro-liberty facade to help fuck over others in support of authoritarianism.

Maybe this authoritarianism is what's needed to get a shit country off it's feet and being the super power of the south?

[Liriena]

I'd make houses the exception because, y'know, people need a roof. So long as the workers have homes of their own, it's all good.

I do kinda like the idea of democratizing the Hamptoms, Beverly Hills and Midtown Manhattan tho. A nice bit of reverse gentrification. ;3

That exception is completely arbitrary. You're depriving the workers of their product.

I wouldn't say it's arbitrary at all, if you consider the key idea of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs".

[Great Minarchistan]

Choice 1: low political liberty, good civil liberty, low economic liberty
Choice 2: reasonable political liberty, reasonable civil liberty, high economic liberty

Uhhhh I take the second one, ty

>Reasonable
>Under a literal authoritarian

Lmao.

I bet you'll still be singing his praises as your civil liberties are eroded.

As much of an asshole that Bolsonaro is, at least he doesnt formally call for the culling of the Constitution and for the dismantling of the macroeconomic trinity and of the financial system

[Liriena]

Workers are paid a fair valuation of their worth in the market

If the market deems sub-living wages as a fair valuation of workers' worth, the market is fucked up.

[Rio Cana]

Private property =/= personal property

You can keep your house. You can even keep your toothbrush.

my personal property is my private property.

Have found videos of certain people in the US that are angry since they say that there private property is not really theirs. That it can never really be theirs since they have to pay the government (State/local) property taxes each year. If they do not pay it they get to lose there private property.

[Virgolia]

Why is it bad to have employees? If you don't exploit them and you give them a fair wage then it's okay,you aren't forcing them to work nor taking advantage of them.

I'm not an economist, let alone an expert in Marxist economic theory, but IIRC it's assumed that, in principle, if you are turning a profit, you are not giving your employees a fair wage. And there's a libertarian/anarchist argument that could be made, that a business in which the owner has absolute power over the employees by virtue of owning the means of production, however small the business may be, is an inherently tyrannical and unjust hierarchy, and that it would be better for the functioning of the business to be more horizontal and democratic.

The owner has more power because he has more risks than the employees
If employees deserve more money then they deserve less money when the profits go down.

The owner doesn't have absolute power over the employees.
And no,it won't be better for the business to be more "democratic" because it's not a society nor a state.

[Torrocca]

>Reasonable
>Under a literal authoritarian

Lmao.

I bet you'll still be singing his praises as your civil liberties are eroded.

As much of an asshole that Bolsonaro is, at least he doesnt formally call for the culling of the Constitution and for the dismantling of the macroeconomic trinity and of the financial system

Yeah, why formally call for it when you can put up a facade and do it later?

Authoritarianism begets authoritarianism, not liberty.

[Liriena]

Private property usually includes personal property, yeah, but the private property of the means of production does not fall under private property and it goes to the chopping block. Unless... I dunno... you have, like, a cute little gun shop or bakery where you are the only one working, I guess?

Still belongs to me and I'm not going to give my stuff to anybody but me. I worked hard for my belongings and I'd be damned if I let anybody take it from me.

Relax dude. Your stoof is probably safe from seizure unless your last name is Soros, Bezos, Bloomberg, Trump or Walton.

[Northern Davincia]

That exception is completely arbitrary. You're depriving the workers of their product.

I wouldn't say it's arbitrary at all, if you consider the key idea of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs".

That idea is lunacy in ideological format.

Workers are paid a fair valuation of their worth in the market

If the market deems sub-living wages as a fair valuation of workers' worth, the market is fucked up.

Statements like these make me cheer for union-busters all the more.

[Great Minarchistan]

Workers are paid a fair valuation of their worth in the market

If the market deems sub-living wages as a fair valuation of workers' worth, the market is fucked up.

Many countries are undeveloped and have a low stock of capital to start with

[Virgolia]

Still belongs to me and I'm not going to give my stuff to anybody but me. I worked hard for my belongings and I'd be damned if I let anybody take it from me.

Relax dude. Your stoof is probably safe from seizure unless your last name is Soros, Bezos, Bloomberg, Trump or Walton.

Just curious,did you vote for Del Caño in the last elections?

[Great Minarchistan]

As much of an asshole that Bolsonaro is, at least he doesnt formally call for the culling of the Constitution and for the dismantling of the macroeconomic trinity and of the financial system

Yeah, why formally call for it when you can put up a facade and do it later?

Authoritarianism begets authoritarianism, not liberty.

So official signs of authoritarianism prevail over subjective ones when calling for the most anti-liberty candidate? TIL.

Not to say that given its composition, the Congress will likely only filter and pass reforms that improve economic freedom

[Torrocca]

Yeah, why formally call for it when you can put up a facade and do it later?

Authoritarianism begets authoritarianism, not liberty.

So official signs of authoritarianism prevail over subjective ones when calling for the most anti-liberty candidate? TIL.

Not to say that given its composition, the Congress will likely only filter and pass reforms that improve economic freedom

Or, more realistically, Bolsonaro's gonna fulfill his promise and reinstate a military dictatorship. GG no re good job helping to kill democracy. :^)