by Chan Island » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:36 am
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.
by Jutsa » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:45 am
by Chan Island » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:50 am
Jutsa wrote:Very good! But... how come there's no option of "Someone did this! We must put a stupid amount of funding into finding them!" or something?
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.
by Jutsa » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:44 am
[effect] @@LEADER@@ has the same food EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.
by Trotterdam » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:46 am
The problem with this approach is, it'll only give you immunity for that specific poison. If someone uses any other poison on you, it won't help. Also, some poisons, such as mercury and other heavy metals, or cyanide, the body can't develop an immunity to at all, you'll just be poisoning yourself more and more no matter how small each dose is.Chan Island wrote:[option] Depressingly, your first visitor is the unorthodox eugenicist @@RANDOMNAME@@. "I'm so pleased you survived that deadly toxin attack- and mark my words this was definitely an assassination attempt- but what doesn't kill you makes you stronger! By that I mean you should build up an immunity. Take a tiny dose of poison every day, and let your system process it, get to used to it, and get more resistant. That way, in future nobody can poison you!"
by Australian rePublic » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:09 pm
by The Derplandz » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:54 pm
Australian rePublic wrote:Option 5 is a huge leap of logic. Anyone would give a "big" enough dose if they wanted to poison someone. I don't see what Bigtopia's name's gotta do with it
by Caracasus » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:08 am
by Bears Armed » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:36 am
That's one of the problems: There's also the possibility that later on you might want to commit suicide but find that the only poison available is one to which you've built up this immunity.Trotterdam wrote:The problem with this approach is, it'll only give you immunity for that specific poison. If someone uses any other poison on you, it won't help.
by Candlewhisper Archive » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:52 am
Jutsa wrote:Very good! But... how come there's no option of "Someone did this! We must put a stupid amount of funding into finding them!" or something?
by Trotterdam » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:55 am
Yes, I am aware of that story. However, I think we can agree that's a fringe circumstance. Also, Mithridates found another way to kill himself. It's not hard.Bears Armed wrote:That's one of the problems: There's also the possibility that later on you might want to commit suicide but find that the only poison available is one to which you've built up this immunity.
(This policy is sometimes called 'Mithridatism', after King Mithridates Eupator of Pontus who is alleged to have used it... and then to have faced the latter problem.)
by Candlewhisper Archive » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:39 am
by Trotterdam » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:48 am
As someone with no formal medical education whatsoever, I covered that already.Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Regarding Mithridatism, as a doc I feel I should point out that it doesn't actually work for most poisons, and in fact most toxic substance you'll encounter in the modern world are far more to cause cumulative harm.
I mean really, unless you're handling snakes for a living or expecting an old school assassin to use arsenic, it's not really going to work as a defence against poisoning.
The last of these is already basically present as option 4.Candlewhisper Archive wrote:- Chemical sniffer drones, or indeed sniffer dogs.
- A well-funded online database for emergency workers to use as an instant reference.
- Food prepared only by vetted and trusted staff.
by Candlewhisper Archive » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:33 pm
by Trotterdam » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:53 pm
...Wouldn't people practicing deliberate self-harm also deliberately do it somewhere they won't be found by emergency services until it's too late?Candlewhisper Archive wrote:more than half the time poisoning comes from deliberate self-harm
by Chan Island » Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:17 am
Trotterdam wrote:The problem with this approach is, it'll only give you immunity for that specific poison. If someone uses any other poison on you, it won't help. Also, some poisons, such as mercury and other heavy metals, or cyanide, the body can't develop an immunity to at all, you'll just be poisoning yourself more and more no matter how small each dose is.Chan Island wrote:[option] Depressingly, your first visitor is the unorthodox eugenicist @@RANDOMNAME@@. "I'm so pleased you survived that deadly toxin attack- and mark my words this was definitely an assassination attempt- but what doesn't kill you makes you stronger! By that I mean you should build up an immunity. Take a tiny dose of poison every day, and let your system process it, get to used to it, and get more resistant. That way, in future nobody can poison you!"
Also, it has nothing to do with eugenics as far as I can discern. This is making individual people stronger regardless of their genes, not removing people with bad genes from the population in order to promote the spread of better genes.
Bears Armed wrote:That's one of the problems: There's also the possibility that later on you might want to commit suicide but find that the only poison available is one to which you've built up this immunity.Trotterdam wrote:The problem with this approach is, it'll only give you immunity for that specific poison. If someone uses any other poison on you, it won't help.
(This policy is sometimes called 'Mithridatism', after King Mithridates Eupator of Pontus who is alleged to have used it... and then to have faced the latter problem.)
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Jutsa wrote:Very good! But... how come there's no option of "Someone did this! We must put a stupid amount of funding into finding them!" or something?
Narratively, maybe you could put this in as assumed in the opening description, leaving the issue back on its initial premise. Something like:
"Obviously, your intelligence services and the police are devoting time and resources to discovering who is responsible, but others are making other suggestions as to how you might be safer in future."
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Regarding Mithridatism, as a doc I feel I should point out that it doesn't actually work for most poisons, and in fact most toxic substance you'll encounter in the modern world are far more to cause cumulative harm.
I mean really, unless you're handling snakes for a living or expecting an old school assassin to use arsenic, it's not really going to work as a defence against poisoning.
I'd personally treat this as a crazy option, and move it towards the end of the issue.
More sensible modern approaches should be presented first, such as:
- Chemical sniffer drones, or indeed sniffer dogs.
- A well-funded online database for emergency workers to use as an instant reference.
- Food prepared only by vetted and trusted staff.
Actually you touch on most of those solutions though you frame them archaically. I'd consider bringing the issue into the modern age, and putting these things in the trappings of how a modern nation might respond to a poisoning threat.
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:For sure, though the second option is actually what we aim funding at in real life. The idea is that you can't stop poisoning easily anyway, and more than half the time poisoning comes from deliberate self-harm, so the best thing to do is to have a complete database that tells you exactly what you should be doing for each poison. The UK one is called Toxbase, and many clinical data management programs are directly integrated with it.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.
by Chan Island » Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:16 am
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.
by Bears Armed » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:15 am
Chan Island wrote:The whole issue is framed a little archaically, because using poison to assassinate someone is rather archaic in and of itself (and almost certainly going to fail) in an age that has sniper rifles in it.
by Friendly Cannibals » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:42 am
by Candlewhisper Archive » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:58 am
Trotterdam wrote:Wouldn't people practicing deliberate self-harm also deliberately do it somewhere they won't be found by emergency services until it's too late?
by Candlewhisper Archive » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:01 am
Trotterdam wrote:(Also, I suspect that causes of death for national leaders might break down somewhat differently than causes of death for average people. We're not in an era where assassination is super-common, but it's still more likely to happen to politicians than to emo teenagers.)
by Palos Heights » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:22 am
by Chan Island » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:17 pm
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Trotterdam wrote:(Also, I suspect that causes of death for national leaders might break down somewhat differently than causes of death for average people. We're not in an era where assassination is super-common, but it's still more likely to happen to politicians than to emo teenagers.)
Agree with this, but a sound economic approach to political poisoning would be to have robust and experienced toxicology services, so that when assassination attempts by poisoning do occur you've got experienced consultants and a wide knowledge base to hand - the sort of folk who can look at the symptoms and take a guess at the agent used without waiting for bloodwork.
Palos Heights wrote:Piggybacking off of what CWA was saying about poisoning, most modern poisons are about the cumulative effect rather than an immediate effect. I think you should consider reworking the issue so that it's been revealed that the leader has been steadily been poisoned over a long period of time. You could really have fun with this premise, with people suggesting the leader has been dosed with any number of deadly toxins out there, or maybe even go the Nero approach and have the fault be lead-pipes. Something to consider.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.
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