Embassy of the South Pacific

[Zukchiva]

First of all, I'm completely and totally aware of my irrelevance to this issue. Never even gone on TSP forums before this occurred, and in the general ways of Nationstates, still a relatively new player. So I'll be keeping the majority of stance on this personal and private.

However, I want to reinforce a point that keeps being brought up again and again.

The TSP Admins, by the words of pretty much everyone who have posted on this thread (or most), have not shown any to little evidence to Tim and Escade on why they were banned.

The only (main) representation being shown is Glen speaking on the side of the admins. However multiple people have put Glen in a bad light (whether true or not, those statements made about him), so Glen's statements seem rather lacking in creditability. Along with the fact that the team keeps (by the words of a few here) changing the story of why the evidence is classified.

From a person who has not been involved in this at all, this honestly seems like a crowd of people asking for evidence about the questionable actions of an admin team who may have done their duty incorrectly. Instead of providing evidence which should be easily obtainable, that team keeps trying to explain events without any evidence to back their claims up to a bunch of people who don't believe its words. And the team keeps doing it anyway when clear evidence could have solved this dispute so long ago.

Using logic, it's obvious that the TSP admin team is either a) being extremely stingy with evidence for no apparent reason, or b) has little or no evidence to give and is trying to support their actions solely with their own words- words not many people believe-. As Cormactopia Prime stated, either way, it's pretty pointless to keep arguing here. It would take something bigger than arguments on the NS Forums to change the TSP admin team's mind about this matter.

Which makes my statement hypocritical, but call it an impulse I've been having, to share the way I've seen things on this thread for a while
I just did it at a pointless and most likely bad time. I'll run off now!

Back to lurking in TEP :>

[Lord Dominator]

And now we have a least a couple TSPers asking that the evidence be released (on the Discord)
Interesting stuff

[North Prarie]

And now we have a least a couple TSPers asking that the evidence be released (on the Discord)
Interesting stuff

........how do you know?

First of all, I'm completely and totally aware of my irrelevance to this issue. Never even gone on TSP forums before this occurred, and in the general ways of Nationstates, still a relatively new player. So I'll be keeping the majority of stance on this personal and private.

However, I want to reinforce a point that keeps being brought up again and again.

The TSP Admins, by the words of pretty much everyone who have posted on this thread (or most), have not shown any to little evidence to Tim and Escade on why they were banned.

The only (main) representation being shown is Glen speaking on the side of the admins. However multiple people have put Glen in a bad light (whether true or not, those statements made about him), so Glen's statements seem rather lacking in creditability. Along with the fact that the team keeps (by the words of a few here) changing the story of why the evidence is classified.

From a person who has not been involved in this at all, this honestly seems like a crowd of people asking for evidence about the questionable actions of an admin team who may have done their duty incorrectly. Instead of providing evidence which should be easily obtainable, that team keeps trying to explain events without any evidence to back their claims up to a bunch of people who don't believe its words. And the team keeps doing it anyway when clear evidence could have solved this dispute so long ago.

Using logic, it's obvious that the TSP admin team is either a) being extremely stingy with evidence for no apparent reason, or b) has little or no evidence to give and is trying to support their actions solely with their own words- words not many people believe-. As Cormactopia Prime stated, either way, it's pretty pointless to keep arguing here. It would take something bigger than arguments on the NS Forums to change the TSP admin team's mind about this matter.

Which makes my statement hypocritical, but call it an impulse I've been having, to share the way I've seen things on this thread for a while
I just did it at a pointless and most likely bad time. I'll run off now!

Back to lurking in TEP :>

I agree with you on most points, but just want you to know that most of the people in this thread are people who hate TSP anyway

Now, we’re going to go about fixing as much damage to our community and culture as we can. The peanut gallery will do what they always do.

Cool then go away from the NS forums and go on fixing your community. You have, as things stands now, clearly lost the court of public opinion. Not that you care about this.

1. Go away and let people who have no idea what they're talking about slander our region? No way! Our administration has been actually pretty radio silent on this matter, so we've pretty much done what you've asked.
2. We have done a lot to fix our community by these bans.

[Lord Dominator]

And now we have a least a couple TSPers asking that the evidence be released (on the Discord)
Interesting stuff

........how do you know?

Omniscience is a hobby of mine

[Hesskin Empire]

And now we have a least a couple TSPers asking that the evidence be released (on the Discord)
Interesting stuff

........how do you know?

First of all, I'm completely and totally aware of my irrelevance to this issue. Never even gone on TSP forums before this occurred, and in the general ways of Nationstates, still a relatively new player. So I'll be keeping the majority of stance on this personal and private.

However, I want to reinforce a point that keeps being brought up again and again.

The TSP Admins, by the words of pretty much everyone who have posted on this thread (or most), have not shown any to little evidence to Tim and Escade on why they were banned.

The only (main) representation being shown is Glen speaking on the side of the admins. However multiple people have put Glen in a bad light (whether true or not, those statements made about him), so Glen's statements seem rather lacking in creditability. Along with the fact that the team keeps (by the words of a few here) changing the story of why the evidence is classified.

From a person who has not been involved in this at all, this honestly seems like a crowd of people asking for evidence about the questionable actions of an admin team who may have done their duty incorrectly. Instead of providing evidence which should be easily obtainable, that team keeps trying to explain events without any evidence to back their claims up to a bunch of people who don't believe its words. And the team keeps doing it anyway when clear evidence could have solved this dispute so long ago.

Using logic, it's obvious that the TSP admin team is either a) being extremely stingy with evidence for no apparent reason, or b) has little or no evidence to give and is trying to support their actions solely with their own words- words not many people believe-. As Cormactopia Prime stated, either way, it's pretty pointless to keep arguing here. It would take something bigger than arguments on the NS Forums to change the TSP admin team's mind about this matter.

Which makes my statement hypocritical, but call it an impulse I've been having, to share the way I've seen things on this thread for a while
I just did it at a pointless and most likely bad time. I'll run off now!

Back to lurking in TEP :>

I agree with you on most points, but just want you to know that most of the people in this thread are people who hate TSP anyway

I don't hate TSP, I hate the things they've been doing lately though. I used to see them as "That defender leaning feeder" but then they started BS about multiple places and people and its just snowballed.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

it's pretty pointless to keep arguing here. It would take something bigger than arguments on the NS Forums to change the TSP admin team's mind about this matter.

Would you know about this issue if it wasn't being talked about here?

For those who have already cut ties, i.e. many of those talking here, just shutting up is being complicit in helping this fade away. Speaking about it until answers come continues to bring attention to it, and increase the odds of more people doing something about it.

Would the issue of my own ban without evidence be anywhere near as notable if I had not spent the past month fighting it and making them refuse again and again to provide evidence to anyone besides themselves?

Suffice to say, I wholeheartedly disagree. TSP's admin team is not the only mind in play here.

Hey, your regional government still has some ties - if this situation disturbs you, perhaps ask them what they plan to do to address it? If they plan to cut those ties if major fixes are not made fast? If they plan to insist that accusations of harassment not be made without evidence, and enforce such an insistence with consequences?

And so it goes.

(For the record, even if it's "pointless," Tim and Escade should absolutely also each individually secure representation and challenge this in TSP courts, in order to drag out the farce in public and make the admin team either fix their errors or double down on them. The fact that they're referencing my case at all, or the fact it's the most viewed legal thread ever on the TSP forums, should more than make clear that having the patience to pursue a case when you are confident you can prove you are in the right practically ensures a "win" regardless of the legal outcome.)

---

1. Go away and let people who have no idea what they're talking about slander our region? No way! Our administration has been actually pretty radio silent on this matter, so we've pretty much done what you've asked.
2. We have done a lot to fix our community by these bans.

1) Admins refusing to address the situation with anything but dodges and escuses is a good thing?
2) Your community has had these problems for years, when Escade was away from the game and before Tim came to TSP. Whatever their behavior, to think that removing them is any more of a fix than "there will be no one to stand against GR for a bit" is folly. Oh, and you also might want to remove Unibot from your sphere of influence before you act like banning Tim and Escade solves all your problems.

[Kurnugia]

1. Go away and let people who have no idea what they're talking about slander our region? No way! Our administration has been actually pretty radio silent on this matter, so we've pretty much done what you've asked.
2. We have done a lot to fix our community by these bans.

So it does matter what *NSGPer* thinks? Might wanna talk to glen about this. He seems to think differently.

But while we are at it: I want a reasonable explanation why the admins are sharing a server with Unibot. I honestly don't give much about the whole Tim/Escade/Souls drama.

[Kyrusia]

Harassment/Griefing: Harassing/griefing a nation or region because of their words or actions is forbidden regardless - in telegrams, Regional Messageboard (RMB) posts, and on the forums.
*Accusations of misconduct that may bring real world repercussions outside of NationStates do not belong in public spaces on NationStates and will be punished as harassment. Players may post, in general terms, about factual repercussions taken in response (I.e. removal from a region or regional position), but may not go into details or link to material that does.

Cosmopolitan borovan: *** Warning for harassment. *** If you have evidence of a NationStates player committing some wrongdoing, file a Getting Help Request; do not drag out accusations for the purposes of politicking. That's harassment. Period.

One post from this thread has been sequestered, and is linked here for Moderation record.

[Fauxia]

I don’t have a dog in this fight but this argument is disgusting and its recent use IRL forces me to mention it.

I agree with you on most points, but just want you to know that most of the people in this thread are people who hate TSP anyway

Oh? If evidence came out that the admins lied about everything would you not punish them, because they were accused by “enemies of TSP”? If it’s not just some wild theory thrown out randomly, who the hell cares who says it? If the story is credible, the story is credible. I’m sure many people posting want to see Glen-Rhodes out of any position of power. Who the hell cares? When you oppose someone, you bring out everything you got against them. It’s not all just conspiracy theories, it would be much easier to dispell if it was. These shouldn’t not be investigated if they seem at all credible because it was first brought up by some “enemy of TSP”. That would be bad faith and community failure at best.

TL;DR Enemy shnemeny, a credible accusation is a credible accusation.

[Cosmopolitan borovan]

And now we have a least a couple TSPers asking that the evidence be released (on the Discord)
Interesting stuff

........how do you know?

First of all, I'm completely and totally aware of my irrelevance to this issue. Never even gone on TSP forums before this occurred, and in the general ways of Nationstates, still a relatively new player. So I'll be keeping the majority of stance on this personal and private.

However, I want to reinforce a point that keeps being brought up again and again.

The TSP Admins, by the words of pretty much everyone who have posted on this thread (or most), have not shown any to little evidence to Tim and Escade on why they were banned.

The only (main) representation being shown is Glen speaking on the side of the admins. However multiple people have put Glen in a bad light (whether true or not, those statements made about him), so Glen's statements seem rather lacking in creditability. Along with the fact that the team keeps (by the words of a few here) changing the story of why the evidence is classified.

From a person who has not been involved in this at all, this honestly seems like a crowd of people asking for evidence about the questionable actions of an admin team who may have done their duty incorrectly. Instead of providing evidence which should be easily obtainable, that team keeps trying to explain events without any evidence to back their claims up to a bunch of people who don't believe its words. And the team keeps doing it anyway when clear evidence could have solved this dispute so long ago.

Using logic, it's obvious that the TSP admin team is either a) being extremely stingy with evidence for no apparent reason, or b) has little or no evidence to give and is trying to support their actions solely with their own words- words not many people believe-. As Cormactopia Prime stated, either way, it's pretty pointless to keep arguing here. It would take something bigger than arguments on the NS Forums to change the TSP admin team's mind about this matter.

Which makes my statement hypocritical, but call it an impulse I've been having, to share the way I've seen things on this thread for a while
I just did it at a pointless and most likely bad time. I'll run off now!

Back to lurking in TEP :>

I agree with you on most points, but just want you to know that most of the people in this thread are people who hate TSP anyway

Cool then go away from the NS forums and go on fixing your community. You have, as things stands now, clearly lost the court of public opinion. Not that you care about this.

1. Go away and let people who have no idea what they're talking about slander our region? No way! Our administration has been actually pretty radio silent on this matter, so we've pretty much done what you've asked.
2. We have done a lot to fix our community by these bans.

Why not go it the democratic way in the first place and whatever logic used enemy or not it's still logic

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I don’t have a dog in this fight but this argument is disgusting and its recent use IRL forces me to mention it.

I agree with you on most points, but just want you to know that most of the people in this thread are people who hate TSP anyway

Oh? If evidence came out that the admins lied about everything would you not punish them, because they were accused by “enemies of TSP”? If it’s not just some wild theory thrown out randomly, who the hell cares who says it? If the story is credible, the story is credible. I’m sure many people posting want to see Glen-Rhodes out of any position of power. Who the hell cares? When you oppose someone, you bring out everything you got against them. It’s not all just conspiracy theories, it would be much easier to dispell if it was. These shouldn’t not be investigated if they seem at all credible because it was first brought up by some “enemy of TSP”. That would be bad faith and community failure at best.

TL;DR Enemy shnemeny, a credible accusation is a credible accusation.

See:

For two of the more recent examples, we have the continued smearing of Glen through his friend with Unibot and the assertion that Roavin was purposefully delaying votes.

While both questioning the admin relationship with Unibot and questioning Roavin's job as fine, in of itself, it just so happened to grave dig the Glen-Unibot thread after admins reached out and asked the users to apologize/clam down, which clearly speaks to the bad faith that thread was created in.

aka "Questioning this is fine, but also not fine, because we're using questioning it as one of our few reasons why you deserved your ban, because it's 'smearing,' and you're questioning it in bad faith because you were asked to calm down about it but did not"


...for a prime example of this mentality in effect in TSP, Fauxia

[The Church of Satan]

Over the next 2-3 months, depending on how you want to start counting, those two formerly prominent players created a noxious environment of fighting, baiting, and trolling

First of all it's no secret that I have been a friend to TSP since April of 2013. However I have never held back. I call it as I see it.

No offense Glen but fighting, baiting and trolling has been how TSP's internal politics work for at least the last 5 years. I mean come on man. How many players have been driven out of the region because of these politics that you yourself have participated in this whole time? If this situation with Tim and Escade is any indication, nobody in TSP has done anything to change that. Not you, not Escade, not Uni when he was there and not even Kringalia. Clearly TSP is content with this. Otherwise it wouldn't have been so commonplace over the last few years. Why change your mind now? Is it some kind of hidden agenda or what? What's going on man?

[Consular]

At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is if *TSPers* think the community is best served by the bans.

Ok I'm sorry but that's just such a fucking ignorant opinion. You being a terrible admin reflects on other admins, even on other boards. It does everyone a disservice.

As far as I'm concerned you can PNG anyone for any reason whatsoever. But an administrative ban should require evidence -- otherwise we're abandoning the principle that administrative roles shouldn't be used for political purposes. And that's dangerous.

I agree with you on most points, but just want you to know that most of the people in this thread are people who hate TSP anyway

I actually quite like TSP generally so you can take that victim complex and bin it, thanks

[Cosmopolitan borovan]

Ok I'm sorry but that's just such a fucking ignorant opinion. You being a terrible admin reflects on other admins, even on other boards. It does everyone a disservice.

No it doesn't. It only affects the individuals involved in that region. Hugely the responsibility falls squarely on the admin and is not taken lightly or something like that.

[Aclion]

At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is if *TSPers* think the community is best served by the bans.

Ok I'm sorry but that's just such a fucking ignorant opinion. You being a terrible admin reflects on other admins, even on other boards. It does everyone a disservice.

Yeah no, it reflects poorly of TSP and the people who have relationships with them knowing about this.

[Consular]

It makes people think twice when an admin somewhere else has to withhold evidence for actually legitimate reasons, therefore yeah it does have an impact.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Ok I'm sorry but that's just such a fucking ignorant opinion. You being a terrible admin reflects on other admins, even on other boards. It does everyone a disservice.

Yeah no, it reflects poorly of TSP and the people who have relationships with them knowing about this.

So where’s either the answers or the outside action, if it’s clear that neither the admins or the remaining members care enough to push answers?

It makes people think twice when an admin somewhere else has to withhold evidence for actually legitimate reasons, therefore yeah it does have an impact.

Yes, which is why every admin team out there should be as demanding here as they usually are against less popular region. Glad to see you are.

Though I disagree on your PNG comment, somewhat - as far as I’m concerned, you can PNG someone for any reason if you allow yourself to do so, and explain the reasons to whatever standard you set, because the rest of the world values those bans based on said standard. While the standard is never as high as an administrative ban, there is obviously going to be a difference between how the world views a PNG from a region that can PNG on a whim with no reasoning, and a PNG from a region that requires very specific criteria to be met, and a detailed report on the reasoning to be made public. TSP, legally, falls into the latter, but in reality, has been acting as the former...as is their right, but people should also care about it being less authoritative as a result. In other words, you don’t get to claim to be the standard of democratic values and fairness and then go around throwing out bans based on secret allegations with secret evidence and indistance that the target does not have any right to a specifically *fair* appeal, even if they’re just IC stuff (and I’ll remind you there, my ban also accused me of blackmail, which Is hardly “just IC stuff”). Either meet your standards or just go ahead and legislate them lower.

[Blight-Bane]

if you allow yourself to do so, and explain the reasons to whatever standard you set

One can imagine Mall decreeing: "Any contrarians shall be purged/PNGed because, well, Mall said so."

Either meet your standards or just go ahead and legislate them lower.

Quite right. Mind you, convoluted legal codes don't exactly help.

[Lord Dominator]

if you allow yourself to do so, and explain the reasons to whatever standard you set

One can imagine Mall decreeing: "Any contrarians shall be purged/PNGed because, well, Mall said so."

Are you sure Mall would stop at just contrarians?

[Blight-Bane]

Are you sure Mall would stop at just contrarians?

Highly unlikely. Sharks must feed. In the context of EWS post though, he would have legal cover (not that he'd acknowledge such a trifling nuisance).

[Aclion]

It makes people think twice when an admin somewhere else has to withhold evidence for actually legitimate reasons, therefore yeah it does have an impact.

This is a good point.

So where’s either the answers or the outside action, if it’s clear that neither the admins or the remaining members care enough to push answers? .

Dunno

[Tim-Opolis]

And so TSP's radio silent siege mentality continues...

Still haven't been told what supposedly OOC awful things I did, but hopefully someone out there is having more luck with figuring out what happened from Glen and Pals. I imagine Unibot was thrilled about my ban though. Likely talking all about it in his private server with Farengeto, Roavin, Kringalia, and Glen-Rhodes, he's quite keen on ranting about me offsite.

[Lord Dominator]

Ah, so the Court has said we're getting a ruling on Souls' case on the 12th.
Who's in a betting mood?

[Kringalia]

*raises hand*

[Escade]

I have always tried to follow the legal route, or the rules of fair play, and therefore have been waiting for the regional administrators who volunteered to provide some guidance. Former delegates, long-time community members and former administrators of the South Pacific and other regions have been stonewalled in trying to get any answers. That, in itself, is highly disturbing. I also urge everyone to read Souls' post here as it sums up the situation quite clearly.

Please be utterly clear that this ban is purely motivated by foul play, hypocrisy and the kind of disgusting political weaponization of administration that has brought TSP to a new low. What happened recently that led to the bans? One clear political faction was unable to prevent Tim from reaching second place in the delegate elections. More recently they were unable to get their candidate for Regional Affairs to win even after they flamed the new rising player who's tactics they publicly reviled and privately adapted (DM campaigning). What was a 48 hour ban for four players, with simply one warning (do not engage with each other) became a 8 month ban for the two players who 1. Did not break the rules of the ban and tried to avoid engaging and 2. Were not the admin team, of which two members have made it their public goal to remove their political enemies from the region for a convenient period of time that coincides with election cycles.

The question is not about whether or not I, or Tim, want to stay in the South Pacific. It is that our reputations have been slandered on an OOC basis. If I were a regional admin myself I would be looking at this ban and trying to protect my community from such dangerous players. In fact, I have banned players from my private servers based on the testimony (without evidence) of respected admin. In this situation though TSP admin, having not been able to use IC political tactics to remove us from political influence, resorted to the most depraved method possible. How does anyone trust admin after this?

Why does this administration constantly refuse to create clear guidelines and follow a clear system of warnings? So they can continue to punish only those that they want to punish. The most disgusting thing about this whole ordeal is that Tsunamy, Kringalia, Glenn-Rhodes and Roavin afforded more rights to known OOC harassers. That is what is truly repulsive about this situation. How utterly vile does a player have to be to afford more rights to actually horrific people OOC then their IC political enemies?

Now we have the root admin incapable of responding to the legitimate questions asked by a long-term community member, former delegate, and former admin here. Tsunamy has taken a one month Leave of Absence so he doesn't have to deal with the actual implications and consequences of his actions. The rest of the admin are so inextricably biased in their enemies or favoritism over certain factions that they shouldn't be dealing with this case because they have shown no ability to be fair or impartial in this or other cases. After all one admin implied I was being punished because of Imki and his bad blood with her.

Tsunamy cites Unibot’s GP opinion as influencing his actions in that thread (and also cites Cormac but according to Cormac, Glenn-Rhodes and Roavin should also be banned - so where's the parity at least?). Of course that the admin of TSP uses Unibot's GP opinion as an opinion to follow is disturbing as equally disturbing that he cites Cormac's opinion since Tsunamy did state that one of his goals was to get Cormac to ragequit TSP last year and he successfully got him to ragequit (it's in the Legislator Lounge).

That flamebaiting a player into ragequitting was considered acceptable and IC though. Because it was Cormac? Was that IC or OOC? That's only one of the things I've witnessed admin do and call it all part of the game. And unlike them I have no qualms in providing a list of actions with the appropriate venues where the evidence can be found or sharing the DMs. Publicly. Tsunamy would be the most innocent of these admin because at least he's not in Unibot's fanclub, at least not in the actual server. This same admin, Tsunamy, deflecting the questions that hold him accountable, randomly links threads that are all IC as “proof” and states that anyone else can link to other evidence if they wish to. What the hell? "It's not one comment, its unexplainable" is utter bullshit and entirely an inappropriate response to claiming players committed OOC harassment.

If those are the standards for building a case then anyone can cherry pick through years of NSGP or forums or Discord and find one-sided, out of context evidence that allegedly proves toxicity. Context, patterns of history and behavior, especially for IC political feuds are key to establish anything. By banning us and preventing us from accessing the discord and forums they also effectively prevent us from counter filing or showing how they have created the standards and are choosing to selectively and, without any moderation, punish their IC enemies.

I also knew, when I chose not to throw a friend and ally under the bus, that I was going to be pushed out one way or another. It didn't matter that I was a former delegate and six time minister in the region; I chose not to side with the admin and I predicted my ousting publicly months ago. When trying to stick "coup\security" threat on me didn't work they resorted to weaponization of admin.

If had to make the same choice again, knowing what was coming, I would do so in a heartbeat. So the question is not about me staying in the region, there’s plenty else I can do and I appreciate the support from other players and regions. It’s about how entirely hypocritical and despicable this whole action was and how TSP administration cannot be trusted. And that's a problem for not just me and Tim but the entire NS community. This is why I ask all allies, administration in particular, to stop this kind of admin weaponization before it ruins the rest of the community.

Those interested in actually creating a better community engage in dialogue, communication, and use models and escalating steps. They model appropriate behavior and encourage it. This ban has nothing to do with toxicity and everything to do with dirty politics. That's sickening.