Democratic Socialism in the U.S and How to Pay for It?

[Militant Costco]

With the blue-tide that is currently sweeping through America and the ever-growing popularity of democratic socialists and their ideals such as Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, I notice that while they go in-depth about their programs and how it will benefit America, they don't go in-depth about how to implement and sustain them.

This article/op-ed by Vox I think sums up a major issue that most moderates are concerned about;
https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2018/8 ... cits-taxes

The major points are for those who can't be bothered to read it is that a single-payer healthcare system, social security expansion, free colleges, paid-family leave, guaranteed $15 an hour job with benefits, $1 trillion infrastructure program and repaying of student loan debts, all major issues and programs for Democratic Socialists, would cost $42.5 trillion over the next decade and put down a $12.4 trillion deficit immediately and current plans such as raising taxes and lowering the defense budget would not cover the debt unless Americans and corporations are willing to shell out 100% of their income and/or a 87% VAT.

So what are your ideas for paying for all of this? I especially want to know from a democratic socialists POV since most of the time when finances are bought up in debate about socialism it occurs in right-leaning threads and it turns into a screaming match that the mods eventually have to get involved in.

Edit 1: Due to the demands of some people, I am putting this here that these people call themselves "Democratic Socialist" and the article aforementioned also describes them by that. If you have an issue with them being called that, tough luck. This ain't a thread about what to call these people.

[New haven america]

We could just take out a little bit of the Military's $600+ billion budget and put it into social systems and programs.

Even if we take $100 billion from them, we'd still be the highest spender bar none.

[Hammer Britannia]

It ain't socialism though

That's just a bigger tax burdon

[Die PreuBen Kaiserreich]

We could just take out a little bit of the Military's $600+ billion budget and put it into social systems and programs.

Even if we take $100 billion from them, we'd still be the highest spender bar none.

I agree. We spend way too much on the military and we're not the strongest in the world. We might have the largest navy and be the sole superpower and have bases everywhere and basically be an empire but we're not the strongest country in the world. I think that is a viable option to pay for this. It doesn't cover the entire cost, but it's a strong start.

[Telconi]

It ain't socialism though

That's just a bigger tax burdon

This is 2018, words don't have meanings.

[Militant Costco]

We could just take out a little bit of the Military's $600+ billion budget and put it into social systems and programs.

Even if we take $100 billion from them, we'd still be the highest spender bar none.

The budget proposal most Dem Soc's propose is a 2% military expenditure, the minimum requirement as requested by NATO, which would only cover $1.9 trillion of the $12.4 trillion the U.S will need and $42.5 trillion down the road. So its not enough. Not to mention any more than that and we're effectively cutting our military in half, which will require lots of planning and care if we don't want another Truman-era military catastrophe.

[Arlenton]

You don't pay for it, because it doesn't happen. Worse case scenario is Democratic waves in 2018 and 2020 followed by some watered down program, like the ACA, that overall sucks followed by a GOP wave in 2022 then gridlock.

[New haven america]

We could just take out a little bit of the Military's $600+ billion budget and put it into social systems and programs.

Even if we take $100 billion from them, we'd still be the highest spender bar none.

The budget proposal most Dem Soc's propose is a 2% military expenditure, the minimum requirement as requested by NATO, which would only cover $1.9 trillion of the $12.4 trillion the U.S will need and $42.5 trillion down the road. So its not enough. Not to mention any more than that and we're effectively cutting our military in half, which will require lots of planning and care if we don't want another Truman-era military catastrophe.

Yeah, but I'm not going by their proposal, I'm going by my proposal.

[Militant Costco]

The budget proposal most Dem Soc's propose is a 2% military expenditure, the minimum requirement as requested by NATO, which would only cover $1.9 trillion of the $12.4 trillion the U.S will need and $42.5 trillion down the road. So its not enough. Not to mention any more than that and we're effectively cutting our military in half, which will require lots of planning and care if we don't want another Truman-era military catastrophe.

Yeah, but I'm not going by their proposal, I'm going by my proposal.

You proposal is even less than Dem Socs so I don't see how it solves the issue.

[Xadufell]

With the blue-tide that is currently sweeping through America and the ever-growing popularity of democratic socialists and their ideals such as Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, I notice that while they go in-depth about their programs and how it will benefit America, they don't go in-depth about how to implement and sustain them.

This article/op-ed by Vox I think sums up a major issue that most moderates are concerned about;
https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2018/8 ... cits-taxes

The major points are for those who can't be bothered to read it is that a single-payer healthcare system, social security expansion, free colleges, paid-family leave, guaranteed $15 an hour job with benefits, $1 trillion infrastructure program and repaying of student loan debts, all major issues and programs for Democratic Socialists, would cost $42.5 trillion over the next decade and put down a $12.4 trillion deficit immediately and current plans such as raising taxes and lowering the defense budget would not cover the debt unless Americans and corporations are willing to shell out 100% of their income and/or a 87% VAT.

So what are your ideas for paying for all of this? I especially want to know from a democratic socialists POV since most of the time when finances are bought up in debate about socialism it occurs in right-leaning threads and it turns into a screaming match that the mods eventually have to get involved in.

Blue tide, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

With Americans being Americans, you're not likely to see anything with any relation to Socialism being standard. You're also not going to have it paid for. With the current American debt, only extreme measures can be taken to pay for any of the aforementioned policies and most Americans are not going to like it.

[Strength and Order]

How about we don't do that because America is already going to shit and there's no need to make it worse?

[Militant Costco]

With the blue-tide that is currently sweeping through America and the ever-growing popularity of democratic socialists and their ideals such as Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, I notice that while they go in-depth about their programs and how it will benefit America, they don't go in-depth about how to implement and sustain them.

This article/op-ed by Vox I think sums up a major issue that most moderates are concerned about;
https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2018/8 ... cits-taxes

The major points are for those who can't be bothered to read it is that a single-payer healthcare system, social security expansion, free colleges, paid-family leave, guaranteed $15 an hour job with benefits, $1 trillion infrastructure program and repaying of student loan debts, all major issues and programs for Democratic Socialists, would cost $42.5 trillion over the next decade and put down a $12.4 trillion deficit immediately and current plans such as raising taxes and lowering the defense budget would not cover the debt unless Americans and corporations are willing to shell out 100% of their income and/or a 87% VAT.

So what are your ideas for paying for all of this? I especially want to know from a democratic socialists POV since most of the time when finances are bought up in debate about socialism it occurs in right-leaning threads and it turns into a screaming match that the mods eventually have to get involved in.

Blue tide, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

With Americans being Americans, you're not likely to see anything with any relation to Socialism being standard. You're also not going to have it paid for. With the current American debt, only extreme measures can be taken to pay for any of the aforementioned policies and most Americans are not going to like it.

Like it or not, most states are predicted to shift towards the left, including the ones that were key to Trump's victory, while the Dems are unlikely to lose any major states, if any.

If you are a Dem Soc, it helps discussing about this since it only strengthens your position if it has a solution.

If you aren't a Dem Soc, it still helps discussing about it since most of these programs might get adopted by moderate Dems.

[Valrifell]

It ain't socialism though

That's just a bigger tax burdon

This is 2018, words don't have meanings.

Dem Socialism (or Social Democracy I dont recall) has never been anything but upfront about not actually wanting to seize the means of production.

Except the DSA.

[Militant Costco]

You don't pay for it, because it doesn't happen. Worse case scenario is Democratic waves in 2018 and 2020 followed by some watered down program, like the ACA, that overall sucks followed by a GOP wave in 2022 then gridlock.

Unbelievably, these are actually the watered-down versions and the estimates come from nonpartisan or left-leaning sources. So it could be even worse.

[Valrifell]

Hey let's raise taxes.

Okay sorry I'll leave.

[New haven america]

With the blue-tide that is currently sweeping through America and the ever-growing popularity of democratic socialists and their ideals such as Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, I notice that while they go in-depth about their programs and how it will benefit America, they don't go in-depth about how to implement and sustain them.

This article/op-ed by Vox I think sums up a major issue that most moderates are concerned about;
https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2018/8 ... cits-taxes

The major points are for those who can't be bothered to read it is that a single-payer healthcare system, social security expansion, free colleges, paid-family leave, guaranteed $15 an hour job with benefits, $1 trillion infrastructure program and repaying of student loan debts, all major issues and programs for Democratic Socialists, would cost $42.5 trillion over the next decade and put down a $12.4 trillion deficit immediately and current plans such as raising taxes and lowering the defense budget would not cover the debt unless Americans and corporations are willing to shell out 100% of their income and/or a 87% VAT.

So what are your ideas for paying for all of this? I especially want to know from a democratic socialists POV since most of the time when finances are bought up in debate about socialism it occurs in right-leaning threads and it turns into a screaming match that the mods eventually have to get involved in.

Blue tide, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

With Americans being Americans, you're not likely to see anything with any relation to Socialism being standard. You're also not going to have it paid for. With the current American debt, only extreme measures can be taken to pay for any of the aforementioned policies and most Americans are not going to like it.

Someone doesn't know how national debt works...

[Militant Costco]

Hey let's raise taxes.

Okay sorry I'll leave.

Here are the proposals the nonpartisain Congressional Budget Office offered;

1. Raising the final $34 trillion would require seizing roughly 100 percent of all corporate profits as well as 100 percent of all family wage income and pass-through business income above the thresholds of $90,000 (single) or $150,000 (married), and absurdly assuming they all continue working. (This calculation refers to individual income, not investment income.)

2. How about a European-style value-added tax (VAT), which is basically a national sales tax? A rate of 87 percent would be needed to collect $34 trillion under the American tax base.

3. What about payroll taxes? Lawmakers would need to create a new 37 percent payroll tax, on top of the existing 15.3 percent payroll tax, in order to collect $34 trillion.

[Rhein-Hesse]

I think that on one hand, yes this is a pressing issue for many Dem Socs. However, I'd argue relatively few are asking for every single thing you mentioned in the OP. For some healthcare, is the issue, for others, it's college tuition and for some, it's a multitude. But for obvious reasons very few people are asking for all 42.5 trillion $ worth of reform.

[Impaled Nazarene]

They ain't democratic socialism that's liberal social democracy. Wake me up when Sanders is campaigning for the collectivization of the economy and has Bezos imprisoned for life.

[Strength and Order]

It seems a lot of people are confusing Social Democracy for Democratic Socialism in this thread.

[Rhein-Hesse]

It seems a lot of people are confusing Social Democracy for Democratic Socialism in this thread.

Correct me if I'm wrong but democratic socialism is equivalent to 'the Nordic model', so an emphasis on welfare, universal health care, maintaining a mixed economy and private enterprise. Whilst social democracy is just socialism with democratic processes?

[Strength and Order]

It seems a lot of people are confusing Social Democracy for Democratic Socialism in this thread.

Correct me if I'm wrong but democratic socialism is equivalent to 'the Nordic model', so an emphasis on welfare, universal health care, maintaining a mixed economy and private enterprise. Whilst social democracy is just socialism with democratic processes?

No, you got that backwards. Which actually proves my point.

[Militant Costco]

I think that on one hand, yes this is a pressing issue for many Dem Socs. However, I'd argue relatively few are asking for every single thing you mentioned in the OP. For some healthcare, is the issue, for others, it's college tuition and for some, it's a multitude. But for obvious reasons very few people are asking for all 42.5 trillion $ worth of reform.

These are actually the biggest issues the Dem Socs want to fix or implement however, including their candidates.

Also single-payer healthcare, which is probably the most common and popular of the Dem Socs plan, alone costs $32 trillion. To be honest, a Dem Soc without single-payer healthcare is kinda just a normal Dem.

[Rhein-Hesse]

Correct me if I'm wrong but democratic socialism is equivalent to 'the Nordic model', so an emphasis on welfare, universal health care, maintaining a mixed economy and private enterprise. Whilst social democracy is just socialism with democratic processes?

No, you got that backwards.

Makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

Wow, this entire thread is basically wrong now because of this one mistake.

[Impaled Nazarene]

It seems a lot of people are confusing Social Democracy for Democratic Socialism in this thread.

Correct me if I'm wrong but democratic socialism is equivalent to 'the Nordic model', so an emphasis on welfare, universal health care, maintaining a mixed economy and private enterprise. Whilst social democracy is just socialism with democratic processes?

Wrong. That's Liberal Social Democracy. Democratic Socialism is actually socialism with a more democratic version of liberal democracy or in some systems the democracy is rebuilt entirely. But considering Democratic Socialism really isn't a form of government with much behind it, it ends up being just a broad term for people who aren't Marxist-Leninists and aren't Anarchists but still solidly left.