[DEFEATED] Ban on Capital Punishment

[Desmosthenes and Burke]

"You wouldn't actually find any straw in a hay field. You'd want the corn field for that. Unless you were actually looking for the literal straw man, in which case I'd direct you to the vegetable fields.

"We'd question the need for the ridiculously long preamble here. And the operative clause could be significantly shortened too."

"Do I look like a farmer to you? Jeez, everybody is a critic..."

"No, you look like an agent of a left-wing hit-squad. We highly encourage you to try farming for a year or two. We hear it tends to increase civic virtue and adherence to republican values, but being the so-called liberal elite ourselves, we hypocritically have no experience therewith."

Iulia paused for a moment. "As for the resolution at hand, we are opposed in the strongest terms possible. While we agree that capital punishment ought not be lightly imposed, it is a necessary component of a just system of punishment and have nothing more to add beyond what others have already said on that topic."

[Araraukar]

"Because the punishment is inherently irreversible, and mortal criminal justice is not infallible. And because execution meets none of the components of an effective criminal justice punishment. It is purely retributive, which is a piss-poor theory upon which to run a justice system."

"It is not retributive when it is done to save resources and energy. I don't know about you, ambassador, but Araraukar shares its planet with dozens of other nations, and none of these nations, nor ours, can leave the planet to search for resources elsewhere. Resources thus being limited, individuals who have been shut out of the society already, should not have to be kept alive when all they do is use up resources and cause unnecessary expenditure of time, energy and money. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one, ambassador."

OOC: Sorry for the Spock quote, but I couldn't resist...

"Pathos doesn't work on me, ambassador. You'd do well to find a different approach."

"Surely you understand the importance of definitions and examples, ambassador?"

"Separation from the public is a goal of criminal justice."

"Perhaps for separatists. For us the goal is to make sure the criminal cannot and will not break the law again. In the most severe cases this includes ending their life that they themselves have deemed worthless by choosing to throw away their rights of freedom."

OOC: Again, sorry, but this was too punny to not use...

"Society spends money on all of those within it's care, even those who are unsavory."

"Unsavory, I grant you, yes. Unredeemable, no."

"Imprisonment is not the same thing as isolation. This argument is intellectually dishonest."

"We were talking about the kind of inmates that cannot be let to interact with other inmates - or perhaps you consider mob justice a form of criminal justice? This, ambassador, is why I laid out the example earlier."

"If you're going to shove your things into my mouth, you gotta buy me dinner, first. Maybe just a couple drinks I dunno, its not like anybody else is offering these days."

Johan glanced at his wrist watch. "Dinner I can manage - would tonight at eight work for you? But drinks you'll have to get yourself, if you want alcoholic content; with Janis away, the anti-spendthrift committee is watching our expenses like a flock of dragons watching a dying mountain goat's last few breaths."

What does that really change but the words in the law book?

"More straw."

"So you are fine with that filling then? I guess that really solves the issue for the nations still wanting to be able to punish the most egregious offenses with death."

"Found the hay field."

"Watch out for the goats. I've been told they can be quite unwilling to give way."

[Separatist Peoples]

"Do I look like a farmer to you? Jeez, everybody is a critic..."

"No, you look like an agent of a left-wing hit-squad.

"This is ironic on so very many levels."

We highly encourage you to try farming for a year or two. We hear it tends to increase civic virtue and adherence to republican values, but being the so-called liberal elite ourselves, we hypocritically have no experience therewith."

Bell coughs. "The C.D.S.P. is a centrist libertarian confederation of semi-autonomous territories, and I grew up on a goat farm. But we didn't buy straw. We bought hay and wood shavings for the barn. The perks of living near a sawmill."

"It is not retributive when it is done to save resources and energy.

"Ah, so you euthanize your braindead and mentally ill, too. To save resources and energy."

I don't know about you, ambassador, but Araraukar shares its planet with dozens of other nations, and none of these nations, nor ours, can leave the planet to search for resources elsewhere. Resources thus being limited, individuals who have been shut out of the society already, should not have to be kept alive when all they do is use up resources and cause unnecessary expenditure of time, energy and money. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one, ambassador."

"Ambassador, if your argument is based on insufficent global resources, you have [i]so many worse problems, and capital punishment is likely a negligible solution. This is just...bad debate."

"Surely you understand the importance of definitions and examples, ambassador?"

"The severity of the crime is irrelevant. I wouldn't execute a jaywalker or a child molester for the same rationale."

"Separation from the public is a goal of criminal justice."

"Perhaps for separatists. For us the goal is to make sure the criminal cannot and will not break the law again. In the most severe cases this includes ending their life that they themselves have deemed worthless by choosing to throw away their rights of freedom."[/quote]

Bell clears his throat, "Preventing criminals from breaking the law, and thus harming society, falls under the classic example of separation from the public. You just made my point for me, ambassador. And I'd be willing to bet none of your criminals woke up the day before their crime and said 'Ya know, I think my life is worthless, so I'll throw away my freedom today.' This is an asinine and ignorant understanding of crime and it's motivations."

"Unsavory, I grant you, yes. Unredeemable, no."

"Incarceration is not solely about redemption. If you understood the classical considerations in criminal justice punishments, you know that the goals of criminal punishment has five recognized purposes: deterrence, incapacitation, rehabilitation, retribution, and restitution. Execution serves only retribution and ignores the others. The classic reply, of course, is that it also serves incapacitation (inability to harm society by being isolated from it), in which I note, as I have before, that incarceration does the same.

"We were talking about the kind of inmates that cannot be let to interact with other inmates - or perhaps you consider mob justice a form of criminal justice? This, ambassador, is why I laid out the example earlier.

"Ah, ok, so you don't have any semblance of order in your prisons? If you want, I can see about sending over some literature on prison management."

Johan glanced at his wrist watch. "Dinner I can manage - would tonight at eight work for you? But drinks you'll have to get yourself, if you want alcoholic content; with Janis away, the anti-spendthrift committee is watching our expenses like a flock of dragons watching a dying mountain goat's last few breaths."

Bell just stares.

"So you are fine with that filling then? I guess that really solves the issue for the nations still wanting to be able to punish the most egregious offenses with death."

"Your underlying premise was flawed, so the propositions that follow are, ipso facto, wrong."

[Separatist Peoples]

"And we still ban abortion because it is an act of genocide to people who have caused no harm.

"Lemme stop you right there. If you don't comply with other resolutions, why should any of us bother to consider your input here? Your nation has proved that it is willing to ignore WA law when it is inconvenient, and there is no reason to suspect you won't do so here. So, why should anybody consider your nation's input?"

[Separatist Peoples]

"Lemme stop you right there. If you don't comply with other resolutions, why should any of us bother to consider your input here? Your nation has proved that it is willing to ignore WA law when it is inconvenient, and there is no reason to suspect you won't do so here. So, why should anybody consider your nation's input?"

" We won't allow genocide to happen in our country. You are hypocritical thus for allowing genocide."

"You didn't answer the question. If your nation refuses to abide by the laws of the General Assembly on other matters, you will as easily ignore this law. So, why should the members of the Assembly, who are compliant, consider the opposition of a member who does not? If we accommodate your nation, we cede something and you cede nothing. So, what incentive is there to engage with your delegation?"

[Separatist Peoples]

" We won't allow genocide to happen in our country. You are hypocritical thus for allowing genocide."

"You didn't answer the question. If your nation refuses to abide by the laws of the General Assembly on other matters, you will as easily ignore this law. So, why should the members of the Assembly, who are compliant, consider the opposition of a member who does not? If we accommodate your nation, we cede something and you cede nothing. So, what incentive is there to engage with your delegation?"

"On the contrare, we intend to repeal this legislation as soon as possible. We are only asking for if capital punishment to be banned, then ban abortion which is essentially capital punishment or murder depending on how you look at it, for murdering an unconsenting class of organisms because they don't want a child or can't bear the responsibility. Though we should note, rapists are regularly punished according to deed, sometimes torture, sometimes punishment, sometimes execution, according to what will deter them personally. We should note that this is exclusive to rapists, and treasonists. If this is done then we'll be happy and feel it is acceptable to allow both, based on consistency and not hypocrisy, and attempt to enforce it ourselves, through diplomacy or force."

"You still didn't answer my question, ambassador. Do you need me to use smaller words?"

[Sierra Lyricalia]

<snip>

OOC: Dude, what he's getting at IC is that the WA bans several things your ambassador is claiming your country does to its various criminals, and therefore is completely ignoring multiple resolutions. Why would anyone negotiate with such a country? You'd be barred from even speaking at any real organization if the people you represent are that cavalier about following its rules, so in character why would anyone care what you have to say?

(We really could use a guide to effective GA roleplay, I know it...)

[Separatist Peoples]

OOC: Dude, what he's getting at IC is that the WA bans several things your ambassador is claiming your country does to its various criminals, and therefore is completely ignoring multiple resolutions. Why would anyone negotiate with such a country? You'd be barred from even speaking at any real organization if the people you represent are that cavalier about following its rules, so in character why would anyone care what you have to say?

(We really could use a guide to effective GA roleplay, I know it...)

OOC: No I know, I am fully aware. Don't worry, ICly I'm just being a prick trying to force the WA to agree to my stuff. But yeah, a rp guide would be great. I'm not taking it really seriously.

OOC: Thats a good way to get ignored on this forum. That approach *never* works.

"My answer was such. Would you like me to reply in baby words?" The Ambassador replied condescendingly, her associates getting nervous about her aggressiveness visibly, fidgeting slightly.

"No, you didn't. You went on a rant about your personal politics. Why should we consider your input if you won't comply to begin with? If you have nothing to compromise on, why should we compromise with your nation?"

[Ranbowia]

Full support.

[The United Orthodox States]

(Image)

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Ban on Capital Punishment
Category: Human Rights | Strength: Significant | Proposed by: United Massachusetts

---

Having already presented its rationale in GA 4XX, The General Assembly bans member nations from employing a penalty of death for any crime, excluding war crimes or crimes against humanity.

Standing at 188 characters, I have fit an entire resolution into a tweet. I will be accepting further suggestions, especially those that decrease this abhorrently high character count.

"This resolutuon is absurd!' Shouts Ambassador Justin, while simultaniously slamming his hands on the table, making one of his aids jump with suprise.

"Not only is it a violation of nations' sovernty, it removes one of the most effective deturrents to crime, death! Fully against this law."

OOC: You probably should define crimes against humanity.

[Imperium Anglorum]

UM, just say any crime.

[United Massachusetts]

UM, just say any crime.

OK.

[United Massachusetts]

I'll respond to comments later, but this is now at 139 characters--fitting even the old tweet limit

[The Aligned People]

The Aligned People vehemently rejects this proposal. It is the right of every nation to choose how they conduct their courts. It is a blatant overreach of power for any nation to try and take and wield power in another nations court system.

[Lord Dominator]

The Aligned People vehemently rejects this proposal. It is the right of every nation to choose how they conduct their courts. It is a blatant overreach of power for any nation to try and take and wield power in another nations court system.

"I suggest you read up on other passed rresolutions if you feel this to be an overreach of power ambassador, this is hardly the most prying thing this Assembly has enacted.

Full support of course, love the brevity."

[Jishwas Meme Republic]

Yes I understand people have the right to live but what about those who dedicate their lives to make other's lives hell such as serial kills, rapists, pedophiles, those with extreme mental disorders who pose a threat to society etc. I personally don't think capital punishment should be used extremely often but with cases like these I think it's necessary.

[Bananaaaaa]

Greetings
Even though I agree with your proposal, however, the Death Penalty is imposed in the Principality only for those who had committed grievous crimes, like Child Marriages, Paedophiles, Rape, Serial Murder, and Drug Trafficking. I can not vote for it.

- The Principality

[Liberimery]

"I ask those in favor of the law, suppose it were to be enacted?" The ambassador from Liberimery asks, calmly cleaning his glasses as he does, "And then the harshest punishment of any nation shall be life without possibility of parole, would it not? As my nation has temporarily suspended the practice under concerns of ethical review we have recently encountered a matter that has not afflicted the other member states so far as I am aware in this debate. Recently one inmate in our prison system, who is serving life without parole, allegedly killed a fellow inmate who was do for release in a few months time. Apparently, it was a gang related matter. Now, thus far the course of justice has not taken place and the matter of the question of this situation is internal to my people and our say in the matter has not concerned this body. But since you wish to tell us what is moral, I pose this question: What justice can there be for the family of the man who's life was stolen from him,if there is no punishment greater than that which he is already sentenced and can only ever serve once. I don't make this plea out of emotion. I will not insult this institution with a plea to humanity or such frivolities as has been requested. I wish to ask the question the opposition dare not ask. How do we punish those we have already said will live their natural lives in our prisons when they continue commit such terrible crimes? As heinous as it is for me to say of the deceased inmate... a criminal... he is still my fellow citizen... my fellow man... and under my government my fellow is entitled to the same justice under the law as a law abiding citizen. How do I uphold that most sacred of pledges?

[United Massachusetts]

"I ask those in favor of the law, suppose it were to be enacted?" The ambassador from Liberimery asks, calmly cleaning his glasses as he does, "And then the harshest punishment of any nation shall be life without possibility of parole, would it not? As my nation has temporarily suspended the practice under concerns of ethical review we have recently encountered a matter that has not afflicted the other member states so far as I am aware in this debate. Recently one inmate in our prison system, who is serving life without parole, allegedly killed a fellow inmate who was do for release in a few months time. Apparently, it was a gang related matter. Now, thus far the course of justice has not taken place and the matter of the question of this situation is internal to my people and our say in the matter has not concerned this body. But since you wish to tell us what is moral, I pose this question: What justice can there be for the family of the man who's life was stolen from him,if there is no punishment greater than that which he is already sentenced and can only ever serve once. I don't make this plea out of emotion. I will not insult this institution with a plea to humanity or such frivolities as has been requested. I wish to ask the question the opposition dare not ask. How do we punish those we have already said will live their natural lives in our prisons when they continue commit such terrible crimes? As heinous as it is for me to say of the deceased inmate... a criminal... he is still my fellow citizen... my fellow man... and under my government my fellow is entitled to the same justice under the law as a law abiding citizen. How do I uphold that most sacred of pledges?

"What justice is there in such retribution? What amends does it make? I fail to consider a drawn-out and tiring legal process as providing any sort of closure or justice. Confusing rage with justice is a very dangerous path to walk down; if, indeed, every human is inherently valuable by sheer virtue of their humanity, then nothingcan take away that humanity. Killing those who kill only adds to the cycle of death."

Yes I understand people have the right to live but what about those who dedicate their lives to make other's lives hell such as serial kills, rapists, pedophiles, those with extreme mental disorders who pose a threat to society etc. I personally don't think capital punishment should be used extremely often but with cases like these I think it's necessary.

"If people have the right to live, then why is capital punishment a good idea? Life without parole also prevents such people from continuing to do harm. My question then--why is the death penalty neccesary?"

The Aligned People vehemently rejects this proposal. It is the right of every nation to choose how they conduct their courts. It is a blatant overreach of power for any nation to try and take and wield power in another nations court system.

"In the name of fundamental human rights, it is not at all an overreach."

OOC: Thats a good way to get ignored on this forum. That approach *never* works.

OOC: I'm being like the USSR or Trump Diplomats basically. Trying to be a bit unique. Though that wasn't my full intention, my apologies, it's more to set this up:

"No, you didn't. You went on a rant about your personal politics. Why should we consider your input if you won't comply to begin with? If you have nothing to compromise on, why should we compromise with your nation?"

"Why should we comply with hypocritical resolutions. We are willing to discuss compromises and even comply, but as it stands, it is unacceptable. We are willing to negotiate for all who have an issue with this and take all of their considerations on the table, and represent them. We will work to a compromise, in fact we declare ourselves committed to finding an agreeable middle ground and forcing all to comply." Her assistants look visibly slightly less worried but still are fidgeting a bit.
"If we can find a ground that all can agree upon, that enforced morality that is not objectionable to both sides, we can preserve national integrity, sovereignty, morality, and keep the organization unified and not divided by partisan politics. We are also open to negotiating proof of our willingness and compliance with this, and that this is not some cheap trick."

"There come times where compromise is undesirable. Compromising fundamental human rights is intolerable. If a right to life exists, as we and any decent human being does, there can be no cooperation on the matter. Rights deserve protecting."

[United Massachusetts]

" We won't allow genocide to happen in our country. You are hypocritical thus for allowing genocide."

"You didn't answer the question. If your nation refuses to abide by the laws of the General Assembly on other matters, you will as easily ignore this law. So, why should the members of the Assembly, who are compliant, consider the opposition of a member who does not? If we accommodate your nation, we cede something and you cede nothing. So, what incentive is there to engage with your delegation?"

"On the contrare, we intend to repeal this legislation as soon as possible. We are only asking for if capital punishment to be banned, then ban abortion which is essentially capital punishment or murder depending on how you look at it, for murdering an unconsenting class of organisms because they don't want a child or can't bear the responsibility. Though we should note, rapists are regularly punished according to deed, sometimes torture, sometimes punishment, sometimes execution, according to what will deter them personally. We should note that this is exclusive to rapists, and treasonists. If this is done then we'll be happy and feel it is acceptable to allow both, based on consistency and not hypocrisy, and attempt to enforce it ourselves, through diplomacy or force."

"I support a ban on abortion. It is, however, infeasible. Abortion is murder, but we shan't derail the conversation with such debate."

[Liberimery]

Ambassador, what would you do to a prisoner in that situation? One who has committed such a crime that I describe? I'd prefer to hear how it works in your nation as you seem to have the situation solved, so that I may inform my government on the proper course that this matter should take.

[Separatist Peoples]

Ambassador, what would you do to a prisoner in that situation? One who has committed such a crime that I describe? I'd prefer to hear how it works in your nation as you seem to have the situation solved, so that I may inform my government on the proper course that this matter should take.

"Most correctional facilities would remove privilages, try the accused, and sentence them. Probably move them to a more secure block. Justice does not require constantly escalating punishments."

[Excidium Planetis]

"Justice does not require constantly escalating punishments."

"I disagree, Ambassador." Blackbourne replies. "If punishments don't escalate, there is no disincentive to commit further crimes. The only reason criminals don't usually attempt to break out of Excidian prisons is that if they do, we will just kill them afterwards."

[Kenmoria]

"Justice does not require constantly escalating punishments."

"I disagree, Ambassador." Blackbourne replies. "If punishments don't escalate, there is no disincentive to commit further crimes. The only reason criminals don't usually attempt to break out of Excidian prisons is that if they do, we will just kill them afterwards."

"There can be disincentives. if the prison system allows there to be. Loss of priveliges, longer times before release, solitary confinement and removal of visiting time can all function as good alternatives to the death penalty."

[Excidium Planetis]

"There can be disincentives. if the prison system allows there to be. Loss of priveliges, longer times before release, solitary confinement and removal of visiting time can all function as good alternatives to the death penalty."

"Firstly, for individuals who have already had all those privileges removed, there are no further disincentives. All prison systems have a limit to the level of punishment an inmate can be given, after which point the only disincentive can be death.

"Secondly, the very presence of such amenities in prisons functions as an incentive to commit crimes. The only way prisons can deter the poor, and therefore most likely to turn to crime, from actually committing crimes is if prisons are worse than the impoverished situations would be criminals live in. When prisons are better than the surrounding society, criminals are not afraid to face the consequences."